JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN

[Spectre]

If you read the topic, the posts were related to a specific topic in hand. This post above, is irrelevant. We are talking about a war, and obviously its a given that India will use whatever it has. However, that wasn't the topic.......or the purpose of the post you responded to.

I am just advocating that when you talk about destroying our FOBs using long range missiles then you should keep it in mind that this is a next level escalation and would lead to a retaliatory strike which could be disproportionate in the fog of war.

I agree with you there. Now you are making sense. I hope there is no war as it would be detrimental for a region that has close to a billion people living under below average conditions already. There should be 100 year ceasefire and economic cooperation like the EU started. $$$$ and people doing business, will overwrite ALL this animosity.

Agreed, however all kinds of Proxy Wars must stop for seed of peace to germinate. I believe though Pakistan is going in the right direction and small issues not withstanding - in a time frame of 2015 - 2020, we in India would be placed to see the results of change in Pakistan policy of nurturing terrorists.

Ceasefires are meaningless when today we saw heavy mortar shells being fired across the border for the first time in a long while. we need a long detente on LOC and strict border control enforcement to stop the passage of malcontents. Hope you understand

 

[Viper0011.]

I am just advocating that when you talk about destroying our FOBs using long range missiles then you should keep it in mind that this is a next level escalation and would lead to a retaliatory strike which could be disproportionate in the fog of war.

If you haven't read the argument, then you shouldn't comment. I think the topic was war and the JFT. Which means, India is going to use whatever it can. But the topic had nothing to do to issue silly comments like the above. If a war does break out, I am sure both parties will use whatever they can or want to. That's beyond the scope of the topic nor should the topic be derailed due to someone's fake ego or patriotism. If you can't debate effectively and on the topic, don't join the debate to begin with. Saves everyone time.

Agreed, however all kinds of Proxy Wars must stop for seed of peace to germinate. I believe though Pakistan is going in the right direction and small issues not withstanding - in a time frame of 2015 - 2020, we in India would be placed to see the results of change in Pakistan policy of nurturing terrorists.

Ceasefires are meaningless when today we saw heavy mortar shells being fired across the border for the first time in a long while. we need a long detente on LOC and strict border control enforcement to stop the passage of malcontents. Hope you understand

I agree. Proxy wars should be stopped. From both, India and Pakistan's side into each others territory. At this point, there is no "innocent party". Each one of you do espionage into the other one's, when a chance and time permits. So I agree, to see results, both parties should stop and take responsibility.

Ceasefire violations happen on both sides. For example, on eed day after the Ramadan, Indian forces blew the living out of that area by shelling. Usually, in peacetime, the Pakistanis celebrate that and give Indian BSF soldiers sweets and gifts. Something that can go a long way in establishing long term goodwill and gesture. This year was the first since 2002, when that didn't take place. In fact, Pakistan's army refused to do that. The shelling stopped them from doing any prays, cookouts, etc. In fact that shelling killed a couple of innocent people inside villages. The UN observed it and made a report. Like they've made reports millions of times on both sides before.

I think both parties should be mature enough to sit down and talk about no border crossing from Kashmir into the Indian territory and similarly, no funding and training by RAW to anti-Pakistan elements, and support to terror operations inside Baluchistan, KPK and Karachi. Just so you know, there are "terror camps" inside both of your territories. If both of you want peace...how about doing a mutual agreement in abandoning support for these terrorism types of operations into each others territory??? Blaming one party and not taking the blame won't help. It hasn't helped in the past 70 years!!

 

[Eagle Claw]

If you haven't read the argument, then you shouldn't comment. I think the topic was war and the JFT. Which means, India is going to use whatever it can. But the topic had nothing to do to issue silly comments like the above. If a war does break out, I am sure both parties will use whatever they can or want to. That's beyond the scope of the topic nor should the topic be derailed due to someone's fake ego or patriotism. If you can't debate effectively and on the topic, don't join the debate to begin with. Saves everyone time.




I agree. Proxy wars should be stopped. From both, India and Pakistan's side into each others territory. At this point, there is no "innocent party". Each one of you do espionage into the other one's, when a chance and time permits. So I agree, to see results, both parties should stop and take responsibility.

Ceasefire violations happen on both sides. For example, on eed day after the Ramada, Indian forces blew the living out of that area by shelling. Usually, in peacetime, the Pakistanis celebrate that and give Indian BSF soldiers sweets and gifts. Something that can go a long way in establishing long term goodwill and gesture. This year was the first since 2002, when that didn't take place. In fact, Pakistan's army refused to do that. The shelling stopped them from doing any prays, cookouts, etc. In fact that shelling killed a coupe of innocent people inside villages. The UN observed it and made a report. Like they've made a million times on both sides.

I think both parties should be mature enough to sit down and talk about no border crossing from Kashmir into the Indian territory and similarly, no funding and training by RAW to anti-Pakistan elements, and support to terror operations inside Baluchistan, KPK and Karachi. Just so you know, there are "terror camps" inside both of your territories. If both of you want peace...how about doing a mutual agreement in abandoning support for these terrorism types of operations into each others territory??? Blaming one party and not taking the blame won't help. It hasn't helped in the past 70 years!!

I think If India Resolves Kashmir Issue, 80% Regions Depute End here.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Hi,

Again what I see typical, crying, whining and moaning even before the play has started !
I see this as an opportunity to uplift my country's social and economical wealth. Trade imbalance balance is natural.

What matter is how this will change the entire economic scenario of Pakistan.
The problem will come later, let it the program start before spoiling the party

Well, Good Luck.

 

[salarsikander]

Well, Good Luck.

Hi,
so should we or should we not go ahead with this development ?

 

[Humble Analyst]

Mastan Khan.
I have a different take on the subject.
I would say that JFT is the right AC for PAF. HOWEVER it is not the ONLY platform that it needs. Allow me to elaborate.
When the JFT package was signed J10 was no where in sight. The accidents of J10 in 96 had taken the Chinese back to the drawing board and there was no time limit on how long it would take for the changes to be made and the AC ready for induction.
The J10 is larger and more expensive than the JFT. There are other drawbacks. I have read that of its 11 hardpoints only 6 are cqpable of carrying missiles and the rest are suitable for drop tanks and dumb bombs only. We have also heard from a lot of PAF pilots that in an air encounter you would not have a combo of more than 4 BVRs +2WVRs even on a heavy due to the effect of drag on the plane's performance. In any case the limit of simultaneous attack of J10 radar (if I remember correctly) for BVR AND WVR engagement is 6 targets as against 4 for JFT. THE price differential is at least 1.5 if not more. As such I could argue that with a dual rack you could get 4 BVRS on the JFT+ 2 WVRs. I dont know of any statistics of turnaround time for J10s, but turn around time for JFT is a couple of hours and therefore very small. So from the point of view of air to àir encounter J10 brings no advantage over JFT. The cost differential means that for less money you can get equal amount of armament up in the air and less platforms means more economical and quick and simple repair and turn around time.
I need not emphasise the importance of JFT for the aviation industry of Pakistan. As a platform the JFT has been kept simple with a risk averse approach with modularity and upgradability which exceeds J10 by PAF account ( no proof so take it or leave it). The hand me down approach of the Chinese aviation industries with regards to avionics and weapons systems means that the JFT has an 80-90% capability in avioincs and weapons as compared to J10. This ratio is likely to remain the same inspite of developments to J10.
The J10 would have been a difficult first plane to build for PAF and inspite of Chinese friendship I very much doubt whether they would have given us carte blanche powers of chop and change things as they have with JFT. The PAF on the other hand has brought in its vast experience of trialing and evaluating western platforms and made changes to the JFT Which the Chinese are in turn adopting on their planes. The western practices which are being inducted by PAF are being rapidly absorbed by the Chinese. This would not have happened with the J10 due to it being the top tier plane for PLAAF for a long time.
I think that the originator of hthe thread has been guilty of gross misreading of the situation facing the PAF. WE HAVE AN OBSOLESCENT FLEET with 300 fighters needing replacement by 2020. This would not be done on a one to one basis but operational requirements would demand a fleet of at least 300 planes. Our current fleet of the 16s could go upto 110 by that time but still at least 200 planes need replacing. At friendship prices of 40 million a pop the investment required would be 8 billion at least . 200fighters at 20-25 million is 5 billion which is much more doable. With local manufacturing off sets this will come down even more and the revenue will go locally to our industry.
The saleability of JFT is another factor. The projected sale of 500 units is a real possibility and the revenues from it would do wonders for the programme. This again would not have been possible with the J10.
We have talked at length about the loitering time. This is a distinct advantage of heavies. The range of j10 and JFT is almost comparable and loiter time is not vastly increased to merit the cost surge. HOWEVER THE DEBATE OF A HEAVY FIGHTER ESPECIALLY FOR NAVAL ROLE IS A DIFFERENT TOPIC ALTOGETHER.
I can assure the readers that the days of planes going on bombing missions dèep into enemy terrain have long since gone and these roĺes will be taken over by missiles. For cross border forays we do not have enough distance to merit a heavy weight fighter. One could also argue the utility of even that with the onset of standoff weapons.
Naval role apart I do not see any distinct and worthwhile advantage of the J 10 over JFT. We still have a fleet of 16s awhich are very capable and perhaps more so than J10s to perform the Hi lo combo. Financial pressures will demand austerity and I agree that we should actively be involved in J31 programme.
Araz

Firing missile is not that easy because other country may think a nuclear strike is under way. Long range craft are needed for maritime strike capabilities so do not brush off deep strike aircraft say due to missiles their days are over. Also the need to have enough bomb pay load is still there when it comes to attacking enemy bases, etc.

 

[Viper0011.]

Firing missile is not that easy because other country may think a nuclear strike is under way. Long range craft are needed for maritime strike capabilities so do not brush off deep strike aircraft say due to missiles their days are over. Also the need to have enough bomb pay load is still there when it comes to attacking enemy bases, etc.

If days of missiles are over (working at Mach 2.5,3 or 4), how would a deep strike platform survive with much larger RCS and speed merely Mach1.2 (max) at sea level? Please explain...

In $ 20 million, you could build 40 - 60 anti-ship missiles......but $ 20 million ONLY buys you one plane and one shot.

If the plane it out, your 20 million dollars are gone into the deep water where the Sharks live. Out of the 40 missiles you fired, if TEN hit the target, you just caused the other Navy or Air-force potentially close to $ 500 million to a multi-billion dollar damage (depending upon what it is you hit),

 

[alimobin memon]

jf17 will be an omnirole imho. just like f16 in its initial years it was a light fighter. With better engine and addition of more weight sustaining composites jf17 can carry a weight of medium role. People need to wait. Tell me other than weight what doesnt jf17 be equipped of in present ? AESA ? no there are aesa's we just waiting for a good one. I believe in self reliance. Either way there is money for us to buy rafale or EF2000 and j10 is overhyped IMHO dont expect much from it its just jf17 with greater wait and range plus speed it can be and has same aviionics as jf17 with greater range or output. If jf17 is equipped with better engine the power issue can be resolved and better avionics can be plugged in.

 

[Viper0011.]

right answer..........................u happy........the person i asked this i think don't know what u know....reflect some light of knowledge to him

How about you reflect some knowledge to me as to what do YOU know about Argentina's rejection. I'll give him knowledge too!!!

 

[GURU DUTT]

what platform will the engine be on?

kaveries turboshaft variant is already being used by naval ships in indian navy while it will power indian AURA and some other classified projects

 

[MastanKhan]

@sathya

Smart guy.

 

[al_asad_al_mulk]

@MastanKhan
I just need to know JF-17 block I is B.V.R capable or not?

 

[Patriot Pakistani]

Hi,

JF 17 is the wrong air craft for the armed forces of Pakistan. Even though it has been inducted with a great fanfare and extremely positive results---this aircraft is a little too small aircraft to do the job right when facing the likes of IAF.

On its own merit---the JF 17---for its size has one of the best overall packages available in the industry---air to air---air to ground and air to sea---.

So---in order to have balance in its air arm---Pakistan will have to purchase multiple other platforms.

We have the F16's and possibly no more F 16's----.

We need a medium strike aircraft---with the likes of a JH7B with aesa---this aircraft is like the tornado---. This aircraft can carry 8-10 anti ship missiles and still can defend itself with BVR missiles as well. In the Growler mode, this aircraft take the potency to fight back the enemy to a new level.

Pakistan also need an air superiority type aircraft----like the J 10B----or the J 11---and then on top of that---Pakistan will be looking forward to a stealth type plane like the J 31.

Pakistan military is missing the strike capability of a Tornado type of aircraft in its arsenal---and for that---PAF has failed to deliver.

The procurement of fighter aircraft needs to be taken away from the Pakistan air force---a 3 member team formed with the decision to buy that is needed.

Basically---PAF CANNOT be TRUSTED to buy the right type of equipment---. Like in the case of Saab aircraft----. Paf wanted all saab aircraft and Musharraf put a stop to it and got 4 or 5 chinese variants to have diversity and lines open in case of sanctions from Sweden.

Musharraf's decision proved to ve correct----the Chinese aircraft are as potent or better than the Swedish.

In a similar manner---Musharraf made the deal to buy 36 J 10's---. He knew in his heart and he knew from his experience that the JF 17 as good as it is in its class with all the paraphernalia---is not the answer to the needs of Pakistan.

Pakistan needed a bigger and a more potent aircraft-----.

Now Paf may have thought otherwise----but if you ook at the history of Paf since 1971----it is mostly of failures---bad decisions---lack of understanding the level of threat---at times total ignorance of issues at hand---at times not sharing the level of imminent threat to the national assets-----.

Which basically leads it be acting more like a person who is acting like someone with least concern rather than one who has the best interest of the Pakistan.

money makes the world....., the question is that if we are able to make an aircraft half the price of the f-16 then why are we sad?
jft blk 2 and 3 will definitely be the ones who we want.
apne ghar ki har cheez achi hoti hai

 

[salarsikander]

eah bravo..excepting it .... another son of English papa
first i am not here for your grammar classes ...

second tell me how i am gonna speak on this forum where verbal messages are not allowed and you still able to get my Indian accent ....10 old kid can have better English..but still you didn't answer the question....even a 10 year can give its answer

if USA give you that machine (f-22) on a condition lick up their spit for this you people definitely going to this and u are behaving like its your choice to get machine and just have order USA to give it to you

and "naa" means "naa"

i have enough mental capacity to annoy you as reflected by your words

Hi,

Don't embrass yourself please. If you can't speak English, then I suggest you should demonstrate your limited mental capacity in some Bharat Rakshak forum !

Answer the question of @Viper0011. before making cheapshots.

If your point is to annoy me than you have plainly failed in this regard.

Secondly as a warning if your intention is only for trolling ( like most of Indians) then you wont last much long before you get banned !

@Oscar @waz Guys please have a look at this typical Indian troll

 

[abdulbarijan]

yeah bravo..excepting it .... another son of English papa
first i am not here for your grammar classes ...

second tell me how i am gonna speak on this forum where verbal messages are not allowed and you still able to get my Indian accent ....10 old kid can have better English..but still you didn't answer the question....even a 10 year can give its answer

if USA give you that machine (f-22) on a condition lick up their spit for this you people definitely going to this and u are behaving like its your choice to get machine and just have order USA to give it to you

and "naa" means "naa"

i have enough mental capacity to annoy you as reflected by your words


right answer..........................u happy........the person i asked this i think don't know what u know....reflect some light of knowledge to him

I'm one of the ones that believes that how fluent you are in english does not reflect how intelligent you are ... But if you are on an international forum and you can't communicate for $hit, don't expect people you anger to take lightly to the obvious short comings in your posts from language that doesn't make any sense to logic of a 12 year old ...

and if you are as mentally capable as you seem to believe -- you know where the problem lies and what you need to do to fix it ..

As far as your "question" goes -- I've searched the thread but couldn't find anything that remotely even seems as a legitimate question from you -- you can always restate your question in clear terms and I'm sure many of us on this forum would like to answer ...

Peace...