JF 17 is The Wrong Omnirole Aircraft For PAKISTAN

[aliyusuf]

Those links regarding F-16 vs F-35 are under controlled ROEs.
Tell me... in actual war time scenario ... how will the F-16 or the supporting AEW platform detect F-35 and vector the vipers into favorable position while undetected by the F-35 which is stealthy and has state of the art sensors and avionics?
There has to be a dogfight to win it.
Chances are F-16 won't survive to fight a dogfight and will get taken out unawares by the F-35 from beyond visual range.
F-35 will always have first shot privilege.

As for Block-III Thunder, it will be some time for it to materialize and even when it does ... it won't have the same capabilities as the J-10B or FC-20. Even if it houses an AESA ... it will be less capable than the J-10B's AESA as it will have lesser number of T/R modules ... which will be significant. Furthermore it will be inferior in maneuverability to the J-10B which is available right now.

Don't count on getting a worthy western AESA.

Just my opinion.

 

[his5850]

J-10B(F-10 Vanguard) Maneuverability is better then SU-30MKI Service Ceiling is higher then MKI more faster then MKI smaller then MKI better in dogfight but servers life and loading capacity is lower then MKI but the J-10B benefit to Pakistan is it use almost same kind of spear parts as JF-17 which are produce in Pakistan J-11D or C is a good option too but it going to use different kind of maintenance and spear parts which mean more cost J-10 is overall cheaper to maintain then J-11 J-10 going to use same kind to weapon packeg as JF-17 and i think can be build under the license in Pakistan

Those links regarding F-16 vs F-35 are under controlled ROEs.
Tell me... in actual war time scenario ... how will the F-16 or the supporting AEW platform detect F-35 and vector the vipers into favorable position while undetected by the F-35 which is stealthy and has state of the art sensors and avionics?
There has to be a dogfight to win it.
Chances are F-16 won't survive to fight a dogfight and will get taken out unawares by the F-35 from beyond visual range.
F-35 will always have first shot privilege.

As for Block-III Thunder, it will be some time for it to materialize and even when it does ... it won't have the same capabilities as the J-10B or FC-20. Even if it houses an AESA ... it will be less capable than the J-10B's AESA as it will have lesser number of T/R modules ... which will be significant. Furthermore it will be inferior in maneuverability to the J-10B which is available right now.

Don't count on getting a worthy western AESA.

Just my opinion.

Block III JF-17 is 4+ fighter plane but still not better as SU-30MKI JF-17 will have lower loading capacity means less weapons Service Ceiling will be low and Maneuverability too for JF-17 to win a one on one dog fight will against SU-30 will be lot harder so we need a plane which will have higher Service Ceiling better Maneuverability then SU-30MKI and it is also need to be cheaper to maintain so J-10B will be a better choice to do this job and to achieve air superiority in a fight

 

[Pindi Boy]

For bombing role for striking deep inside enemy territory SU-34 or up coming JH-7 B will be best but they can be considered only after either we get J-10 B or SU-35 in large numbers than if we want we can go for these.

All I am saying is hear me out, JF17 is not the answer to all questions, we need a platform which is true Air superiority plane, can afford it or how we can afford it is a different thing. I will not make sense because you cannot imagine what I am saying. You may have a lot of modern warfare knowledge but India Pakistan were not nuclear capable during 65 0r 71. F4 were used for SEAD operation now it is a different plane for that role. A conventional war tactics and strategies change with time but the core stays the same. If we do not have good planes we cannot deny SU 30 from using Stand off weapons. JF17 has a clearance limitation when it comes to carrying certain armament. It has limitations. y the way won't reply to you any further as you cannot understand what I am saying.

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[Eagle Claw]

J-10B(F-10 Vanguard) Maneuverability is better then SU-30MKI Service Ceiling is higher then MKI more faster then MKI smaller then MKI better in dogfight but servers life and loading capacity is lower then MKI but the J-10B benefit to Pakistan is it use almost same kind of spear parts as JF-17 which are produce in Pakistan J-11D or C is a good option too but it going to use different kind of maintenance and spear parts which mean more cost J-10 is overall cheaper to maintain then J-11 J-10 going to use same kind to weapon packeg as JF-17 and i think can be build under the license in Pakistan



Block III JF-17 is 4+ fighter plane but still not better as SU-30MKI JF-17 will have lower loading capacity means less weapons Service Ceiling will be low and Maneuverability too for JF-17 to win a one on one dog fight will against SU-30 will be lot harder so we need a plane which will have higher Service Ceiling better Maneuverability then SU-30MKI and it is also need to be cheaper to maintain so J-10B will be a better choice to do this job and to achieve air superiority in a fight

Man You are only Watching Small Picture !
Big Picture is that we wana buy a bird that can not only stand in front of Rafs but also Crushes it !
Su-35 is the most Appropriate Answer to this Threat.
Again I would not waste money on J-10B when I have the Option to buy Best in Class and Top of the Line Bird.
J-10 B is not the answer for our needs.
Secondly No one will offer Licence Production untill and unless you go for Big Numbers !
Do you seriously think that we can Purchase 100-150 Pieces of J-10Bs ??
No way !
Neither we have that much budget !
Nor we are Goofs to go for a Platform, which is not the Answer to the Threat that is upcoming.
Most Biggest Flaw of J-10B is its Life Hours !
Which are very low !
Low Budget Country like Pakistan should always Adopt a Thing that is Long Lasting or atleast gives some reasonable time in Service.

 

[abdulbarijan]

The point I've continuously seen is that we cant counter aircraft "x" with "y" --- but what we seem to overlook is the fact that it's okay to debate it on here, we can compare the specifications ,the performance, & the technology being used ..

But in a war scenario, or even in a small skirmish -- where you have max 2-3 minutes to react to a threat which itself is hard to identify (either it is a Mig-29 or M2k or an SU-30) and then to react to that with the appropriate counter -- is very hard if not impossible ...

It would depend on what we have on the FOB's etc. therefore, in my humble opinion the more important thing is to have an all around force with 4th generation capabilities instead of going about of how "we need aircraft A to take care of Aircraft B ..."

 

[graphican]

Pakistan is going to buy J-10B(FC-20) not J-10A

Yup - that's the hope.

 

[Viper0011.]

But in a war scenario, or even in a small skirmish -- where you have max 2-3 minutes to react to a threat which itself is hard to identify (either it is a Mig-29 or M2k or an SU-30) and then to react to that with the appropriate counter -- is very hard if not impossible ...

It would depend on what we have on the FOB's etc. therefore, in my humble opinion the more important thing is to have an all around force with 4th generation capabilities instead of going about of how "we need aircraft A to take care of Aircraft B ..."

I share the same humble opinion like you do. You need to put up a good fight that with having chances to win. A strike platform, doesn't give you a solid punch to knock out your invading enemy in 3-4 minutes time. So I agree and that's what the PAF wants to, an all around multi-role capability that can be spread across Pakistan and can be used withing 2-4 minutes to deal with the threat.

 

[aliyusuf]

Man You are only Watching Small Picture !
Big Picture is that we wana buy a bird that can not only stand in front of Rafs but also Crushes it !
Su-35 is the most Appropriate Answer to this Threat.
Again I would not waste money on J-10B when I have the Option to buy Best in Class and Top of the Line Bird.
J-10 B is not the answer for our needs.
Secondly No one will offer Licence Production untill and unless you go for Big Numbers !
Do you seriously think that we can Purchase 100-150 Pieces of J-10Bs ??
No way !
Neither we have that much budget !
Nor we are Goofs to go for a Platform, which is not the Answer to the Threat that is upcoming.
Most Biggest Flaw of J-10B is its Life Hours !
Which are very low !
Low Budget Country like Pakistan should always Adopt a Thing that is Long Lasting or atleast gives some reasonable time in Service.

Ofcourse Su-35 is terrific fighter jet.
No arguments on that.
But are they really on offer?
How reliable will be the spares and maintenance support and training?
Are the Russian's as trustworthy as the Chinese?
India has had its share of issues with support and spares for the Fulcrums and Flankers and they have always been Russia's primary export customer ... but Pakistan is not and neither is it going to be in the foreseeable future.

Furthermore is it possible that India is just going to stay put while Russia sells their primary fighter to their arch rival?
Selling a few Gunships is one thing but a game changer like Su-35 is quite another.
Just to deprive Pakistan of this opportunity India might even place a bigger order, or whatever is necessary to foil Pakistan ... India has the resources and political clout to do that where Pakistan is concerned.
This is not going to happen.

And even if this happens by some miracle ... then consider the following ...

Su35 is more expensive than the J-10B and real world fly away cost would (not just the USD 65-70 million a jet price tag) be around an approx. 90-100 million a jet when one factor's the associated weaponry, training and paraphernalia. How many jets are we going to get?

Even more than the above, the cost of operating these twin engined beasts would be absolutely prohibitive for the PAF.

With the Chinese the associated costs are greatly mitigated by the discounts and easy payment schedules on offer for the PAF. A J-10B price tag should be around USD 45-50 million a jet and its actual fly away cost would be somewhere around approx. 60-65 million.

Issues with the engine life is more on the Al-31F for the J-10A.
Not so for the Al-31FN-Series-III which powers the J-10B.

Even for the RD-93, the current JF-17 engine, when it was converted from the RD-33 of the twin engine MiG-29 and it's thrust was increased ... its official engine life was quoted to be 2000 hrs as compared to RD-33's 4000 hrs. But Air Commodore Mehmood is on record on saying that they have flown the engine for 7000 hrs without any issues.

These issues are very subjective and vary from case to case.

Last but not the least ... for the time being the original order of 36 J-10B/FC-20's will suffice initially as a deterrence factor. More could be acquired based on the political and strategic situation of the region.

As a matter of fact this might be a good refresher on what the J-10B offers as an option for the PAF as the FC-20 ...

read:Chengdu J-10B soon to be handed over to the People’s Liberation Army Air Force | Defence Aviation

P.S.

I don't know where the number for 100 to 150 J-10B/FC-20's came from.

 

[killerx]

JF17 thunder is still best thing happened to PAF in ages and this program need to go on and PAF should induct about 300 planes, how ever was accepting little more advancements in JF17 thunder block 2, PAF should try to bring block 3 close to F16 block 52, for further procurement for PAF we still have options for another 18 block 52 we can buy from us which would fill in gap as Indian is trying to acquire Rafael's form France, now PAF has majorly operated 3 typed of aircrafts their is once spot missing if could be filled by J10B and J31, but looking at history PAF and more interest in single engine fighter jets, and I think J10B will be winner here, and its still under testing phase and hopefully by 2016-2017 we see first batch in PAF, J31 and more expensive and time frame for first batch for PLAF is around 2020.

 

[Eagle Claw]

Paf is not that much interested in J-10B as it is in case of Su-35

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Even for the RD-93, the current JF-17 engine, when it was converted from the RD-33 of the twin engine MiG-29 and it's thrust was increased ... its official engine life was quoted to be 2000 hrs as compared to RD-33's 4000 hrs. But Air Commodore Mehmood is on record on saying that they have flown the engine for 7000 hrs without any issues.

Aray bhai kuch khuda ka khouf kero yaar ...

Here A-Commodore means accumulatively flown that is all of JFT's which are now well exceeded 10,000 hours and that is for the whole fleet of JFT flown with RD-93 Engine so far. I heard that RD-93 TBO is 2400 Hrs and MTBO is around 600 Hrs. Its turn around time is second to F-16 or at par on availability and in some cases exceeded in availability.

 

[aliyusuf]

Thanks, I misunderstood that part... I stand corrected.

 

[majid mehmood]

any latest news for jf 17 block 3 induction yet

 

[MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n]

@MastanKhan i agree with you sir,many peoples cant understand that,they just stick to term that
"JFT is not meant for that"
It is total idiotic that India will field only Mig-21 against JFT,the truth is that India may never use them but instead they are just being used to maintain squadrons and flying hours.In any conflict (minus China),India would at least send 200+ 4+ gen fighters to attack what we have just 76 F-16 and 100 JFT now look what they have to do...
1)A2A. (F-16,JFT)
2)CAS. (F-16,JFT)
3)CAP. (F-16,JFT)
4)SEAD & DEAD.(JFT)
5)Bombing of strategics targets. (Nothing)
6)Deep strike Mission a.ka. DAS. (18 F-16 blk 52 what if they are lost)
7)Patrolling over sea lines. (F-16,JFT)
8)Escorting Anti-Submarine Aircraft.(No one can do this except j-11.jh-7 or Su-35)
Just calculate how much out of these Vital Missions 176 Aircraft will do.
-We have more AWACS to look on enemy and less Fighters to destroy enemy.
-With Small Radar System on JFT you cant expect 100% hit rate of Missiles launched from that against ships.
-JFT has 2 must Fuel tanks which have there own draw backs.

"Pakistan has gained a lot from JFT project,but today 15 aug 2015 sticking to that fighter without combing it with Heavy fighters in 2:1 ratio is suicide."
And last expect a major skirmish with India in BJP's last year of Rule .

every sentence of ur post is right on target ... yeh airforce walay khud tou doobengay hi , navy aor Pak.army k lye bhe mushkilaat peda karengay jese kargill battle may yeh medan may akela chhor gaiy thay humaray officers & soldiers of PakisTan army ko.

by the way : if u read through shah wali predictions about war then u would come to know and calculate the role of our airforce in the coming conflict.

 

[Irdid]

I personally think the JF-17 is a good fit.