J-10 vs LCA Development Similar timeframe.

[gogbot]

It has recently come to my attention, whilst looking At the J-10 page on Wikipedia.
Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where i discovered that the J-10 "After 18 years in development, the J-10 finally entered service in 2004".

Now the reason i bring this up is because
we all know how much the LCA tejas by HAL has been criticized about its many delays and cost overruns.

So if China can take 18 years to make a plane and get of with no criticism,
Why is there a double standard for India, whose own LCA was done over a same time-frame.

So i have started this thread to get to the bottom of this and find out
About the differences between J-10 and Tejas development

as to why HAL is criticized
and Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute is praised.

 

[sudhir007]

The main difference is j-10 take Ist flight at 1998 and induction start from 2004-2005 but in the case of lca Ist flight taken at 2001 still 3-4 yr to get FOC

 

[gogbot]

The main difference is j-10 take Ist flight at 1998 and induction start from 2004-2005 but in the case of lca Ist flight taken at 2001 still 3-4 yr to get FOC

Development history

The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small delta-winged machine with "relaxed static stability" (RSS) to enhance maneuverability performance. The sophisticated avionics and advanced composite structure specified caused some concern almost immediately, and the IAF expressed doubt that India possessed sufficient technological infrastructure to support such an ambitious project. A governmental review committee was formed in May 1989 which reported out a general view that Indian infrastructure, facilities and technology had advanced sufficiently in most areas to undertake the project. As a measure of prudence, though, it was decided that the full-scale engineering development (FSED) stage of the programme would proceed in two stages.

Phase 1 would focus on "proof of concept" and would comprise the design, development and testing (DDT) of two technology demonstrator aircraft (TD-1 and TD-2) and fabrication of a structural test specimen (STS) airframe; only after successful testing of the TD aircraft would the Indian government give its full support to the LCA design. This would be followed by the production of two prototype vehicles (PV-1 and PV-2), and creation of the necessary basic infrastructure and test facilities for the aircraft would begin. Phase 2 would consist of the manufacturing of three more prototype vehicles (PV-3 as the production variant, PV-4 as the naval variant, and PV-5 as the trainer variant) and a fatigue test specimen, and the construction of further development and test facilities at various work centres.

Phase 1 commenced in 1990 and HAL started work on the technology demonstrators in mid-1991; however, a financial crunch resulted in full-scale funding not being authorized until April 1993, with significant work on FSED Phase 1 commencing in June. The first technology demonstrator, TD-1, was rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998, but they were kept grounded for several years due to structural concerns and trouble with the development of the flight control system.

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So that makes it what a 20 years of development? against what 18 for the J-10.

And considering that this was India's first Fighter vs China's 3rd.

is it really that unacceptable. to have an additional 2 years?

 

[graphican]

No its okay, you can take more time but keep the plane healthy enough that it would not crash like Mig-21s killing the pilots.

 

[sudhir007]

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So that makes it what a 20 years of development? against what 18 for the J-10.

And considering that this was India's first Fighter vs China's 3rd.

is it really that unacceptable. to have an additional 2 years?

lca is not first fighter aircraft of india it is hal marut and u r telling only 2yr different but can u tell me when it start the production and clear foc not before 2013-2014 so still have 5yr to go my dear friend and u dnt know what happened in that period of time.

 

[sancho]

It has recently come to my attention, whilst looking At the J-10 page on Wikipedia.
Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where i discovered that the J-10 "After 18 years in development, the J-10 finally entered service in 2004".

Now the reason i bring this up is because
we all know how much the LCA tejas by HAL has been criticized about its many delays and cost overruns.

So if China can take 18 years to make a plane and get of with no criticism,
Why is there a double standard for India, whose own LCA was done over a same time-frame.

So i have started this thread to get to the bottom of this and find out
About the differences between J-10 and Tejas development

as to why HAL is criticized
and Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute is praised.

Less criticism because less freedom of speech! Do you expect the Chinese media to be as critical as the media in comparable democracies?

But if you compare the development of the fighter you clearly see the where we made the mistakes!
They went with proven foreign engine and most likely radar (Zhuk ME?) in the first batches, which leaves less things to develop on their own at the same time. Now that J10A is operational, they can concentrate on indigenous radar and engine, where they are facing the same amount of problems like us btw.
Anyway, if we did the same from the start and don't wanted to build everything on our own, the delays could have been reduced and at least LCA MK1 would be in service now.

 

[gogbot]

lca is not first fighter aircraft of india it is hal marut and u r telling only 2yr different but can u tell me when it start the production and clear foc not before 2013-2014 so still have 5yr to go my dear friend and u dnt know what happened in that period of time.

Where have you been, Production and induction of the first squadron of The Tejas MK1will be under way by the end of the Year, First squadron to be stationed int tamil nadu.

read the stick in the India defense page for more LCA info

The Induction of the tejas Mk2 and MMRCA will be in 2nd gear by your stated time line.
And by then At least 20 Mk1 the first squadron would have been delivered

 

[sudhir007]

Where have you been, Production and induction of the first squadron of The Tejas MK1will be under way by the end of the Year, First squadron to be stationed int tamil nadu.

read the stick in the India defense page for more LCA info

The Induction of the tejas Mk2 and MMRCA will be in 2nd gear by your stated time line.
And by then At least 20 Mk1 the first squadron would have been delivered

I think u r talking abt mk-1 which clear ioc in 2010 but i think it will slip 1yr coze slow flight testing and radar (does not intregation yet)
coze of that weapon testing not completed yet only dump bomb testing happened in march not bvr or wvr testing. pv-3 come at early this yr but it is not come yet. if i ask you did u happy with speed of process????

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

LCA
utilizes a clean aerodynamic profile with its tailless delta wind and its monofin. It features high roll rates and can progress from level to vertical flight in seconds due to its large elevons

J-10
features a tapered deltawing with tails and canards. This combination provides extremely high lift, thus providing short takeoff and landing ability. It is quite unstable and requires manipulation by the Iron bird flight control system which is a quadruple redundant digital fly by wire system to stay in the air

LCA has a top speed of mach 1.7 whereas the J-10 has a top speed of Mach 2.

The LCA's payload of 4000kgs is quite similar to the J-10's payload of 4500kgs

The LCA uses the Kaveri engine at 20,200 lbs, which provides it a thrust to weight ration of 1.7. The J-10 uses the WS-10 engine that provides a thrust of 27,000lbs and provides it a thrust to weight ratio of 1.75

he LCA radar is a lightweight pulse doppler that has the ability to tract 10 targets at ranges of over 100km and engage 4. The J-10's radar choice has not been determined yet. But its choices are the Elta 2035 radar (originally meant for the Lavi) that tracks 6 targets at ranges over 100km and engages 4 targets and the Phazotron N010 radar that equips the later versions of the Su-27 that can tract 6 targets at ranges up to 160km and engages 2 targets. Some sources suggest that there is a Chinese radar under development that is similar to the Phazotron N010 radar. The LCA radar more modern than the N010 aswell as the Elta 2035 radar in terms of tracking ability and jamming immunity. When operating against ground targets, all the afformentioned radars are similar in ability


A number of the LCA's onboard equipment (navigation and communications equipment, cockpit instruments) are versions of those on the Su-30MKI and are quite close to the best in world technology. The onboard systems on the J-10 are either indigenous chinese developments or are Chinese versions of cockpit instrumentations of the Su-27. The LCA utilized a HUD, HMS and 2 color MFDs and HOTAS controls. The J-10 utlizes a HUD, HMS, 1 color MFD and 2 monochrome ones and HOTAS controls




The advantages that the LCA posessed over the J-10 is its more up to date radar, EW, cockpit instrumentation systems and its greater weapon choice. The advantage that the J-10 has is its marginally greater thrust to weight ratio and its high efficiency at low level flight.

Both aircraft as as previously mentioned are theater aircraft and are typically used for air defense missions in the near zone or, possibly, against ground targets lacking air defense cover. Both are truly excellent aircraft and are superior to their main opponents - the F-16A fighters of Taiwan and Pakistan.

so last question in my mind.....how much money and time it took for US TO ROLL OUT THE F16 FROM DRAWING BOARD.............

I think that this will be a breakthrough technology for both the countries and obvoiusly it will take more time

 

[Tejas-MkII]

But if you compare the development of the fighter you clearly see the where we made the mistakes!
They went with proven foreign engine and most likely radar (Zhuk ME?) in the first batches, which leaves less things to develop on their own at the same time. Now that J10A is operational, they can concentrate on indigenous radar and engine, where they are facing the same amount of problems like us btw.
Anyway, if we did the same from the start and don't wanted to build everything on our own, the delays could have been reduced and at least LCA MK1 would be in service now.

completely agree wiht your statment.

If we go for GE-404 and hybrid of el-2035 and MMR for LCA after its first flight at 2001, till now we have atleast 1 sq. of MK1 and probably going to induct MkII by 2010.

 

[Tejas-MkII]

nice analysis by oui*6 .....

J-10 is counted as a success because of PLAAF willingness to induct tis AC into their AF....

we can also say that their willingnees mainly because they have no other choice...

 

[Patriot]

Oh they do.Russian would sell even their mothers for right amount of money and chinese have lots of cash and you know it.

 

[Tejas-MkII]

Oh they do.Russian would sell even their mothers for right amount of money and chinese have lots of cash and you know it.

I think u mis-understood me....

I am not talking about selling someone mothers or weapon...

I(we) are talking about developing technologies or TOT....

With chinese past of Reverse engineering or copying , no country will TOT to chinese related to jet engine and radar.

 

[Patriot]

You're wrong....Remember J11B .

 

[Tejas-MkII]

You're wrong....Remember J11B .

Please refresh my memory about J11B..

and what TECHNOLOGY(jet engine and radar) china get from Russia.

Please also provide the link.