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Israel claims Iran sent Libya's Haftar anti-tank arms

Is this the democracy that Mr Sarkozy and Mr Cameron were "hailed" for?


Another nation brought to ruins under the pretext of "freedom". Once again it is only the regular people have to suffer in the midst of these chaos.

As for this news of Iran sending weapons, will wait for more reliable confirmations.
 
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Yes, US and I think UK warned Russia to stay away from Libyan conflict and stop sending weapons etc

That doesn't mean anything.

As for this news of Iran sending weapons, will wait for more reliable confirmations.

Iran and Turkey are directly competing with each other throughout the region, it would not surprise me.
 
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Iran and Turkey are directly competing with each other throughout the region, it would not surprise me.
Where ? I can only think of Syria where a very short indirect conflict errupted. Libya is totally unknown. Stop believing everything you read.
 
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UAE and Egypt (in terms of Arab countries) are supporting LNA. KSA is only mentioned because of the closeness to Egypt and UAE but that is a fallacy as UAE and KSA view events in Southern Yemen (for instance) slightly differently as well as the future role of the Al-Assad regime. There is no engagement in Libya from KSA in terms of weapons support, direct involvement etc. on the ground. The government has wisely decided not to pick sides and to try to engage with both parties.

You don't need to tell me what the motives of foreigners (non-Arabs) in Libya are, we are well aware of it so are even the Libyan sides that are currently fighting against each other. Therefore (long-term) only Libyans themselves will be able to overcome their differences and hopefully solve them while Libya remains unified.

Therefore it is good news that Algeria and Tunisia are willing (in particular Algeria) to play a bigger direct role in Libya. In fact Arab neighbors of Libya should be playing the biggest (key role ideally) in the events of Libya. As internal Arab meddling/help is always preferably over foreign one by virtue of none of the Arab actors having territorial claims, wanting to exploit resources of Arab country x or y or any hegemonic ambitions.

EDIT: KSA has been urging the Libyan sides to reach a political agreement years ago, not "recently", lol.
Old news but lot to learn...


As Libyan rebels continue to hunt for Muammar el-Qaddafi, the future of Libya hangs in the balance. But so does the future of Libyan oil.


Although a victory by rebel forces would remove an oppressive regime, it would simultaneously remove a unifying principle from the highly tribal coalition of rebel forces, and would potentially endanger what in 2010 made up 92 percent of the nation's government revenues: oil and gas.

"The early days of transition could go well--or not," said Kevin Book, managing director at ClearView Energy Partners, a Washington-based policy-analysis firm. "If they go poorly, oil infrastructure could be harmed."

"If 'Libya-ration' ends like Iraq's withdrawal from Kuwait in 1991, it will be a Pyrrhic and pyrotechnic victory, bullish for oil and bearish for [President] Obama," Book told National Journal."If 'Libya-ration' ends like U.S. drawdowns in Iraq, the results could still create an overhang that gooses oil prices up, rather than down."


When Iraqi forces withdrew from Kuwait in 1990, they left behind damage to more than 80 percent of Kuwait's 950 operating oil wells. The most severe damage had been dealt to the production facilities, according to an assessment by the Federation of American Scientists.
In 2010, the U.S. drawdown from Iraq left that country's vast network of oil and gas pipelines vulnerable to damage. Some pipelines were sabotaged, leading to supply disruptions and requiring the burial of some above-ground pipelines to decrease their vulnerability to attack.


MORE FROM NATIONAL JOURNAL:
For Obama, Nuanced Victory in Libya
Libya's Draft Constitution
Rebels March on Tripoli

It's not yet clear what damage the six-month uprising has done to Libya's oil and gas infrastructure, but a post-Qaddafi Libya might not ensure its safety, Book said. "The pipelines will be the most vulnerable point," should there be significant fighting among rebel factions.

With Libya's economy reliant on its high-quality oil and gas reserves, the North African nation's next government undoubtedly will utilize its lucrative natural resources. "Whoever is in power is going to want to bring the [oil] companies back," Frank Verrastro, senior vice president and director of the Energy and National Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told National Journal.


While "just getting Libyans to get along with Libyans" will be one hurdle, another will be to reassure foreign companies that the nation is stable enough for them to resume working in Libya.

Major oil companies from Italy, France, Germany, and Spain have drilling operations in Libya, with 85 percent of the country's oil and gas going to those countries, according to the International Energy Agency. Those operations were suspended earlier this year when Libya's civil war broke out.

Italian oil company Eni SpA, the largest foreign producer in Libya, and other firms will be asking themselves: "Is this a place you can send people to work?" Book said. Thirteen percent of Eni SpA's revenue came from Libya before the conflict began in February. In July, the company cut its full-year production target because of the disruption in Libya.

Energy consultant Wood MacKenzie said this week that even after hostilities end, it could take three years for Libyan oil production to return to pre-conflict levels. But others are more optimistic.


Verrastro predicted that Libyan production could come back up by 400,000 to 500,000 barrels a day within six months.

And Samuel Ciszuk, senior Middle East and North Africa energy analyst with IHS Energy, said that barring any serious damage to infrastructure--and assuming some degree of political stability--Libyan production could be up to 1.2 million barrels a day by this time next year. Depending on policies and infrastructure, the country could potentially produce 250,000 to 300,000 barrels a day within three months, he added. "It will surely ease a lot of the worries" over crude supply, Ciszuk said.

Before February, Libya exported about 1.6 million barrels of oil a day. While that's only about 2 percent of the world's oil production and a virtual pin drop compared with production from its 11 partners in the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, the value of Libya's oil lies in its quality, not its quantity.

Submit a letter to the editor or write to letters@theatlantic.com.

OLGA BELOGOLOVA is an associate editor at InsideDefense.com in Washington, D.C., where she covers the Navy. She was previously a staff reporter at National Journal, where she covered energy policy and other global issues.
 

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It's a very big mistake this idle policy.

This same idle policy of the GCC post-2003, refusing the acknowledge the newly established government resulted in Iranian growth in Iraq. In Libya it's paving the way for Erdogan's takeover, Egypt is standing by doing nothing with all the arms they have bought. Algeria does nothing and Tunisia is way too weak to do anything but to accept what they are being offered. Those efforts in Yemen would make a lot more sense in Libya instead.

We have discussed the Iraqi arena post-2003 in detail 100's of times and we both agree however to safe my fingers and Macbook Pro, I will not write a (long) summary of why, how, what was done wrong, less wrong etc. for the sake of this thread since we are both well-versed in that era and are in agreement.

Well, Libya is the neighbor of Egypt and Algeria and they should be the ones that take the burden, as KSA did in Yemen. Both are large and capable military powers of the region and it should be in both of their interests to have a safe and stable Libya as a neighbor.

Tunisia does not have the capability, as you write, or intent to engage in Libya directly. Their main focus is to prevent Libyan refugees from flooding Tunisia and to keep the at times volatile Tunisian-Libyan border intact. I don't blame them for this at all.

Anyway we are talking about a civil war here between two warring Libyan sides. This is not a war between say Libyans and non-Arabs or foreigners. What non-Libyan actors are doing (regional and European) are simply supporting their favorite party that will try to follow/toy their agenda.

Let us assume that GNA wins or LNA wins. How will that change the region exactly? Both groups are Libyans and both will engage in a similar manner with Arab nations. What is important for Libyans and the Arab world is for Libya not to turn into a foreign brothel and for its resources to be stolen.

The removal of Gaddafi, in hindsight, was a mistake, as it weakened the Libyan state but the situation might look very different in 1-2 decades time. By then, Libya might have evolved and learned from its previous mistakes and turn into a useful player/country in the Arab world. The same direction that Iraq will hopefully/is moving towards to slowly.

I am not a fan of the MB movement at all (not a fan of using political Islam to score political brownie points - there is no need for any Islamization in Libya or the Arab world - the vast majority are Muslims already and Islam will and continues to play a role in the life of people with or without the MB) but my approach would be slightly different.

Maybe reading my discussion with brother @Mhmoud (only Libyan brother on PDF that I have encountered) in the Libya Civil War thread. There I voiced my opinion about what is going on, the past and future.

What this bounds down to is that Arab regimes should unify their positions politically instead of combating each other. This MB - vs "secularists", "Islamists vs nationalists", "MB - vs monarchies", "democrats vs authoritarians", "liberals vs conservatives" "Sunni vs Shia", "monarchies vs republics" etc. nonsense should end and that can only happen if people chose the way of dialogue and cooperation.

If parties in say Yemen are honest, both the Houthis (even though I consider them as a terrorist cult until proven otherwise in the future - their track record of weakening the Yemeni state is decade old, not to mention what they have done since 2014), the Yemeni government and Southern Yemenis inclined for separatism, can reach a consensus that will satisfy all parties.

I have not been impressed by either GNA or LNA to be frank with you. I don't think that any of those two are good for Libya. I don't think that Haftar (an incompetent man) is a good horse to bet on either. Al-Sarraj is an incompetent puppet as well that came into "power" in Libya onboard an Italian frigate. It reminds me of the Iraqi exiles post-2003, could explain the incompetence and lack of "feel" with Libyan affairs.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/libyan-civil-war-thread.621714/
 
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Is this the democracy that Mr Sarkozy and Mr Cameron were "hailed" for?


Another nation brought to ruins under the pretext of "freedom". Once again it is only the regular people have to suffer in the midst of these chaos.

As for this news of Iran sending weapons, will wait for more reliable confirmations.
No it's a country that its former leader "Gaddafi" paid 50 million euros to support Sarkozy’s campaign in 2006-7. so no hailing for democracy as they'd been friends ...
 
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Where ? I can only think of Syria where a very short indirect conflict errupted.

Iran and Turkey have been competing in Syria for years. Iran wants to flood Turkey with Syrian refugees and Iran has been arming Assad and providing manpower to prevent Turkish supported opposition from taking over Syria. Iran will military blackmail Turkey from Syria too if Turkey had withdrawn from it. It's a lot more serious than you're suggesting. They are also competing over popular opinion influence across region and all you need to do is watch Iranian media outlets or pro-Iran Arab channels to know what they think about Turkey. You guys are responsible for the 'ErDogan' derogatory remark in case you forgot.
 
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Iran and Turkey have been competing in Syria for years. Iran wants to flood Turkey with Syrian refugees and Iran has been arming Assad and providing manpower to prevent Turkish supported opposition from taking over Syria. Iran will military blackmail Turkey from Syria too if Turkey had withdrawn from it. It's a lot more serious than you're suggesting. They are also competing over popular opinion influence across region and all you need to do is watch Iranian media outlets or pro-Iran Arab channels to know what they think about Turkey. You guys are responsible for the 'ErDogan' derogatory remark in case you forgot.

what are you talking about? Delusions of ottoman days?

Iran is upholding its ally Syria which is a part of its security framework in the middle east. Iran has been in Syria since 2010, long before Turkey even stepped foot. Any Syrian refugee crisis is the fault of turkey and the west for continued support to armed terrorist groups in the Idlib region. Look how fast South Syria fell to Syrian armed forces once US/EU/Egypt pulled their support down there. Literally in days South Syria was conquered. The sad fact is if tomm USA withdrew and the ceasefire fell apart in Idlib then the whole North Syria would fall to Syrian armed forces in a few months at most.

Also it’s laughable to think that “Turkish supported opposition” could “take over” Syria. That Force is way too tiny and powerless. All it does is back up the terrorist force that is stuck in Idlib with no where else to go, just like the the terrorist groups were stuck in Ghouta for so long before being driven out.

Stop imagining Turkey and Iran competing in the Middle East when it isn’t there. The Turkish-Syrian border area is a Syria vs Turkey problem. Iran does not care about Northern Syrian outside of Aleppo. It’s not important to upholding the security of its ally nor is it an area that it even cares about personally. But it’s Assad who cares about those areas. So don’t confuse the two.

While Iran would like to drive out the US and it’s allies from Northern Syria, it’s not in a rush to do so. It’s cementing it’s gains elsewhere. With due time forces will leave Syria. The terrorists will eventually lose, world powers have a short attention span. US is trying to leave Afghanistan and left Iraq and will leave Iraq again eventually. Sustained deployment is not beneficial for any country, even empires.

The only other area Turkey and Iran even touch shoulders is Qatar (where they are on same side) and possibly Libya. Though Iran does not really care for African continent outside of Sudan at one point. So 4 anti tank missiles does not mean Iranian support. There is Iranian arms throughout the black market. They could have been purchased there. Just because an Iranian gun shows up somewhere doesn’t mean that Iran is backing that entity. It’s absurd.
 
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Though Iran does not really care for African continent outside of Sudan at one point. So 4 anti tank missiles does not mean Iranian support. There is Iranian arms throughout the black market. They could have been purchased there. Just because an Iranian gun shows up somewhere doesn’t mean that Iran is backing that entity. It’s absurd.
I was thinking the same, i was reading a report that how UAE bought Helicopters from South Africa and brought them to Libya. Does that makes South Africa against Turkey?

Some of the guys reading too much into this. Turkey's goal is to preserve the delimitation sea line with the Libya. To preserve that deal, Turkey needs to preserve, GNA leader. Simple as that.
 
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I wonder what photos Israeli envoy is talking about, that would be interesting to see. Would also like to know what method Iran is using to deliver these weapons.
they showed a photo that claimed belong to Iran shipment to Libya that later was proven to be a picture of arm shipment to Yemen .
what you expect from Israel about Iran
 
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The photo circulated in the media is Iran supplied Kornet missiles in Yemen, not in Libya. Lies, lies, and more lies from Israel.

US-Warship-DVIDS-1.jpg


KSA is not involved in Libya. Can you provide a single evidence of any KSA involvement on the ground? In fact KSA has been talking with both parties. Al-Sarraj and Haftar both visited KSA last year and held talks with King Salman, MBS and other high ranking officials.

KSA has tremendous people to people, religious, ancestral, tribal, cultural, linguistic clout in Libya. The Libyan royal family lives in exile in KSA and originated from Hijaz. Many of the Libyan opposition to Gaddafi lived in KSA since KSA-Gaddafi relations turned sour in later years. One of the largest Libyan diasporas in the region live in KSA. A Libyan Arab dynasty (Idrisids) ruled a sultanate in what is Southern KSA not very long ago.

KSA has close relations with the new Algerian government and Tunisia as well. Recently Maghrebi and vice versa leaders (KSA) met (a few months ago) in coordinated talks.

It is futile to involve yourself directly (we have more important things to focus on currently), better to have influence among both sides and most importantly the Libyan people and await what will occur in the future.

I have no doubt that the West-East divide will continue.

I already wrote what would/will happen in Libya in the" Libyan Civil war thread" and my predictions were right (so far).

UAE and Egypt are proxies of KSA. KSA is the puppet master pulling at the puppet strings.
 
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they showed a photo that claimed belong to Iran shipment to Libya that later was proven to be a picture of arm shipment to Yemen .
what you expect from Israel about Iran

Article mentions four anti-tank missile systems and photo you claim they are talking about show dozens.
 
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The photo circulated in the media is Iran supplied Kornet missiles in Yemen, not in Libya. Lies, lies, and more lies from Israel.

US-Warship-DVIDS-1.jpg




UAE and Egypt are proxies of KSA. KSA is the puppet master pulling at the puppet strings.

And you're a lil-schit stirrer.
 
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