Is Naval Air Force better than more nationalistic IAF?

[Levina]

I thought it's worth a read.
Arrogance of IAF might get it zapped...or so the author says.

**************************


There are curious goings-on in IAF when it comes to its dealing with indigenous and Russian aircraft. Is the Indian Air Force so institutionally set against the Tejas aircraft that it will go to any extent to delay its clearances and thus derail the programme, and to show up Russian aircraft as unworthy of India’s custom? Consider the evidence.

Cobham Aviation Services of UK was contracted to supply the quartz radome for the LCA radar. It is four months overdue, but the penalty clause has not been invoked. Why? Because an authoritative source says, the IAF has let it be informally known to the supplier that it doesn’t want an accelerated progress of the Mk-I lest it be ordered by the Govt to buy larger numbers of this aircraft, and so delays would be countenanced.

Further, considering the IAF’s attitude Cobham has also turned down ADA/DRDO’s request for 3-4 internal fueling probes to enable this aircraft to get an FOC (final operational clearance) for the Mk-I. No probes, delayed FOC.

The IAF is mortally afraid that buying into the Tejas will mean jettisoning the possibility of getting Rafales beyond the 36 mooted by the PM in G2G mode, which the IAF has its heart set on. It doesn’t want anything to come between the service and a big Rafale fleet in its inventory, especially as Vayu Bhavan is not certain that the def minister Parrikar will even realize the 36 aircraft buy from France.

Another piece of evidence: How come the IAF has so much trouble with its MiG-29 fleet (and its Su-30MKI fleet also), when the two squadrons of MiG-29Ks with the Navy have experienced very few problems, considering the maintenance regimes are virtually the same for the IAF’s version and the naval MiG-29K?

So, the niggling question arises: Is the Indian Navy’s air force simply better than the IAF in servicing, upkeeping, and operating advanced combat aircraft, meaning is it just a better operational force? Training regime-wise, the navy relies on the basic Indian-made HPT-32, a basic jet trainer,before the trainee pilots are tasked to conversion units before deploying to operational squadrons. Meanwhile, IAF has besides the Indian-made trainer aircraft, repeatedly shown its disregard and disrespect for the indigenous HPT-40 trainer project on the anvil by buying a series of trainers — the Swiss Pilatus, the British Hawk, and it is said, has even expressed interest in yet another advanced trainer, the American Textron Scorpion (with most such buys justified also in terms of their use in counter-insurgency jobs, which of course, it is never called on to perform)!!! May be the IAF is an air force perpetually stuck in the trainer mode — a tendency visible since the stewardship of the service by ACM (retd) “Charlie”Browne, now enjoying the Norwegian fjords as our ambassador there, rather than being a serious and meaningful air force our adversaries fear. How else to explain the greater proficiency of naval pilots flying and readying to fight over a more difficult medium — the sea, when the trainee pilots are sourced from the same manpower pool? There must be something the Navy is doing right the IAF isn’t.

And, in the light of the Navy’s enthusiastic financial support for the LCA and its taking ownership of developing the naval version of the Tejas, whether it is also not the more nationalistic service, eager to promote indigenous products and defence industry in contrast to the IAF which, when not whining about Indian products and always finding fault with the LCA, does everything possible, in cahoots with vested interests in the Defence Ministry and other parts of the govt, to undermine indigenous efforts?

In the event, perhaps, the Indian Navy’s aviation wing is in line for an expanded mission and role in the extended Indian Ocean region.

Is the Naval air force better, more nationalistic than IAF? | Security Wise

 

[kaonalpha]

I thought it's worth a read.
Arrogance of IAF might get it zapped...or so the author says.

**************************


There are curious goings-on in IAF when it comes to its dealing with indigenous and Russian aircraft. Is the Indian Air Force so institutionally set against the Tejas aircraft that it will go to any extent to delay its clearances and thus derail the programme, and to show up Russian aircraft as unworthy of India’s custom? Consider the evidence.

Cobham Aviation Services of UK was contracted to supply the quartz radome for the LCA radar. It is four months overdue, but the penalty clause has not been invoked. Why? Because an authoritative source says, the IAF has let it be informally known to the supplier that it doesn’t want an accelerated progress of the Mk-I lest it be ordered by the Govt to buy larger numbers of this aircraft, and so delays would be countenanced.

Further, considering the IAF’s attitude Cobham has also turned down ADA/DRDO’s request for 3-4 internal fueling probes to enable this aircraft to get an FOC (final operational clearance) for the Mk-I. No probes, delayed FOC.

The IAF is mortally afraid that buying into the Tejas will mean jettisoning the possibility of getting Rafales beyond the 36 mooted by the PM in G2G mode, which the IAF has its heart set on. It doesn’t want anything to come between the service and a big Rafale fleet in its inventory, especially as Vayu Bhavan is not certain that the def minister Parrikar will even realize the 36 aircraft buy from France.

Another piece of evidence: How come the IAF has so much trouble with its MiG-29 fleet (and its Su-30MKI fleet also), when the two squadrons of MiG-29Ks with the Navy have experienced very few problems, considering the maintenance regimes are virtually the same for the IAF’s version and the naval MiG-29K?

So, the niggling question arises: Is the Indian Navy’s air force simply better than the IAF in servicing, upkeeping, and operating advanced combat aircraft, meaning is it just a better operational force? Training regime-wise, the navy relies on the basic Indian-made HPT-32, a basic jet trainer,before the trainee pilots are tasked to conversion units before deploying to operational squadrons. Meanwhile, IAF has besides the Indian-made trainer aircraft, repeatedly shown its disregard and disrespect for the indigenous HPT-40 trainer project on the anvil by buying a series of trainers — the Swiss Pilatus, the British Hawk, and it is said, has even expressed interest in yet another advanced trainer, the American Textron Scorpion (with most such buys justified also in terms of their use in counter-insurgency jobs, which of course, it is never called on to perform)!!! May be the IAF is an air force perpetually stuck in the trainer mode — a tendency visible since the stewardship of the service by ACM (retd) “Charlie”Browne, now enjoying the Norwegian fjords as our ambassador there, rather than being a serious and meaningful air force our adversaries fear. How else to explain the greater proficiency of naval pilots flying and readying to fight over a more difficult medium — the sea, when the trainee pilots are sourced from the same manpower pool? There must be something the Navy is doing right the IAF isn’t.

And, in the light of the Navy’s enthusiastic financial support for the LCA and its taking ownership of developing the naval version of the Tejas, whether it is also not the more nationalistic service, eager to promote indigenous products and defence industry in contrast to the IAF which, when not whining about Indian products and always finding fault with the LCA, does everything possible, in cahoots with vested interests in the Defence Ministry and other parts of the govt, to undermine indigenous efforts?

In the event, perhaps, the Indian Navy’s aviation wing is in line for an expanded mission and role in the extended Indian Ocean region.

Is the Naval air force better, more nationalistic than IAF? | Security Wise

What i don't understand is that India has a larger purchasing power ,buy more Su-30 MKI , but this LCA project is starting to solidify itself as a joke. Plus yes your naval air arm is far better than IAF.

 

[livingdead]

nationalistic is wrong choice of word here. Not everybody agrees that local crap is better than imported maal that works. They are given responsibility to defend borders and say in procurement of materials. Why would they compromise?

 

[Neptune]

A fully capable national defense industry is "a must have" capability for any growing world power. But that doesn't mean that they should do something indigenous no matter how crappy it is (there are examples, yeah we know). It's the quality of products with the maximum national input. Unless they don't meet the criterias, safety protocols and requirements of Indian armed forces, only then the second option should come; direct procurement from foreign countries. But then the reliability of these products could be questioned.

 

[Ragnar]

Naval Air Force arm can afford to be crappy since the navies of most neighboring countries suck. For carriers we have Mig-29Ks. But IAF which has to defend Indian cities cannot afford this. Different priorities.

 

[Echo_419]

A fully capable national defense industry is "a must have" capability for any growing world power. But that doesn't mean that they should do something indigenous no matter how crappy it is (there are examples, yeah we know). It's the quality of products with the maximum national input. Unless they don't meet the criterias, safety protocols and requirements of Indian armed forces, only then the second option should come; direct procurement from foreign countries. But then the reliability of these products could be questioned.

More like corruption & love for foreign platforms

 

[[Bregs]]

For present mess in less squadrons in its fleet, air force too needs to share blame as they have penchant for foreign aircrafts and they did everything to delay induction of Tejas

 

[IND151]

Naval Air Force arm can afford to be crappy since the navies of most neighboring countries suck. For carriers we have Mig-29Ks. But IAF which has to defend Indian cities cannot afford this. Different priorities.

Good explanation.

 

[utraash]

Use of nationalistic word doesn't seem to be fitting into this analysis between two wings of our forces though there can deliberate choice to chose fancy n most modern fighting machine on the part of Iaf.....

 

[Gufi]

Naval Air Force arm can afford to be crappy since the navies of most neighboring countries suck. For carriers we have Mig-29Ks. But IAF which has to defend Indian cities cannot afford this. Different priorities.

That could be one reason, but truly it does not explain why the Navy has the best record in your armed forces. And the whole neighbouring countries navies suck, must be confusing Indian policies, because India wants to project power beyond its own waters.
In my opinion the Indian navy can teach the Air force about reliance on both quality and quantity. If you try to match the Chinese Air force as it is updating itself plane to plane with Su 30s you will bankrupt yourself, forget the Rafale or other platforms.

 

[Agent_47]

That could be one reason, but truly it does not explain why the Navy has the best record in your armed forces. And the whole neighbouring countries navies suck, must be confusing Indian policies, because India wants to project power beyond its own waters.
In my opinion the Indian navy can teach the Air force about reliance on both quality and quantity. If you try to match the Chinese Air force as it is updating itself plane to plane with Su 30s you will bankrupt yourself, forget the Rafale or other platforms.

You missed an important part ,Size. IAF is operate more than 50 sqds of aircrafts(including tranport ACs).Size of NAA is what 7-8 sqds?. When you are small it is easy to change and concentrate on quality.

 

[Gufi]

You missed an important part ,Size. IAF is operate more than 50 sqds of aircrafts(including tranport ACs).Size of NAA is what 7-8 sqds?. When you are small it is easy to change and concentrate on quality.

But they maintain a lot more then their planes, do you not see the number of platforms the Navy would have to handle. But I gave my honest opinion, that the IAF needs to be mature and understand that there are different needs other then only latest foreign aircraft.

 

[21 Dec 2012]

But they maintain a lot more then their planes, do you not see the number of platforms the Navy would have to handle. But I gave my honest opinion, that the IAF needs to be mature and understand that there are different needs other then only latest foreign aircraft.

As you stated yourselves, matching PLAAF numbers is impractical. They need a qualitative edge, and Rafale can provide that edge.

 

[Gufi]

As you stated yourselves, matching PLAAF numbers is impractical. They need a qualitative edge, and Rafale can provide that edge.

You seriously need to stop underestimating the Chinese aircraft. They will have moved on to 5th generation by the time Rafales are properly inducted into their air force. They are working on a variant of a stealth bomber, they have gotten a lot from their spying abilities from American aircraft projects, from the B-2 to the F 35. Underestimating or negating your enemy is the first step to defeat. Read on the numbers and platforms of 4th and 4.5 generation planes that China is working on and you will realise some facts you are ignoring.

 

[Indika]

A fully capable national defense industry is "a must have" capability for any growing world power. But that doesn't mean that they should do something indigenous no matter how crappy it is (there are examples, yeah we know). It's the quality of products with the maximum national input. Unless they don't meet the criterias, safety protocols and requirements of Indian armed forces, only then the second option should come; direct procurement from foreign countries. But then the reliability of these products could be questioned.

You are absolutely right india should proceed with developing indigenous products it not only saves money but also enhances local industry capability. Only by adhering to protocols and standards we can have better product.
But things do not happen overnight. Products like aircraft,tank which require mastering of several technologies and integration expertise across hundreds of components. India has just started once more private companies join in then things might change in another 2 or 3 decades. More ever we cannot miss the fact of large arms brokers present in arms deals. It might be most of the navy deals are govt-2-govt giving less scope for corruption whereas airforce is known for buying lot of foreign equipment with lot of fanfare.