Is India handing over Blank Cheque to Russia for Pak-Fa Project ?

[he-man]

Stupid article

1)India cannot build a 5 th gen jet o its own in next 15 years itself......................neither we have money nor tech for this purpose
2)We have not signed any contract with russia for r&d till now,,,the contract is worth about 5.5 billion$ from indian side,till thats signed russia will not deliver any prototypes and neither any technology to us
3)The whole problem has been compounded by the cash straped india at this junction.........we are attempting to make tejas mk1,mk2,,,,buying rafale and signing pakfa contract all at the same time which is stupid in ideal scheme of things,,,should have happened in a phasic manner but we are too late for that.

Had we paid money to russians a year ago we would have got the prototypes by now,,,,guess we are at fault here more than them

4)Lastly i am getting tired of explaining time and agian the capabilities of pakfa..................it will be way way better than mki in anything u can perceive and for 100 million$ a plane its pretty cheap for a 5 th generation.Let me explain the technology in pakfa to people again to prevent any trolling here

RADAR

Uses N036 byelka aesa radar having 3 front antennas,,,giving 240 degrees coverage,maximum yet put in a fighter jet.The frontal panel has 1500 t/r modules and side facing units are about 360-70 t/r modules each.

front panel

side panel(2 on each side)

Compared to the now ageing n01m bars of mki its much better in almost everything as its an aesa and has better coverage too.

ENGINE

Enough bullshit has been said regarding the engine.Let me clarify a few things first.

1)The engine on pakfa is not same as that on mki,,,,,the mki engine is al-31f generating just 123 kn thrust without any fadec control and having life of just 1500-2000 hours,,,this is product 117,a modification on 117s on su-35.

Advantages
The 117S engine thrust has been increased by 16% (up to 14500 kgf) compared to the base AL-31FP engine, the ultimate life has been increased twice (up to 4 000 hours), keeping the same weight and overall dimensions. Such high parameters are attained thanks to application of:
• new high-tech LP compressor with increased air consumption and efficiency
• high efficiency turbine with increased reliability and improved blade cooling system
• new digital engine control system integrated to aircraft flight control system

Научно-производственное объединение САТУРН > 117С

Note engine on pakfa is further modification of 117s.

2)The indian fgfa will have a different engine ,,a variable cycle engine with about 170-180 kn thrust called product 30,,the testing of the engine is gonna begin in a year or two and it should be ready in 3-4 years time.

As u can see on this npo saturn site,already there is a different slot for pakfa and fgfa engine and both are empty as of now confirming what i just wrote above.
NPO "SATURN" > ENGINES FOR MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND UAS

*All in all indian fgfa is supposed to have a rear mounted aesa as well giving it a full 360 degrees coverage.
It is destined to have much more increase in the composites,,,,some physical changes too.

*But untill india signs the contracts and pays russians 5.5 billion$ for r&d nothing will happen here people so before bullshitting about russia we better pay up the money.

*On hal's share of 15 percent............they simply cannot better russians in anything so i would be really surprised if they can even contribute 15% in the project.


@sancho
@Abingdonboy
@Dillinger
@DrSomnath999

someone is writing a stupid article on pakfa every other day

 

[C130]

Why can't India just make one themselves? I believe India has the capability/Man power/resources to make one if you really plan well and are determined to. Afterall, India can launch satellites in space and send one to mars, i belive they can make a 5th generation fighter Jet if they truly focus on making one. You have to start from somewhere, at this rate India will never be able to make one themselves and will keep depending on foreign powers(who wont want to share their latest tech to you people obviously, no matter how much you pay, which is understandable). There's only so much Russia can do for you/help you. If you dont try and be self reliant, there will be even more complains like this one.
I believe if China can make one(though they are way more advance than India), then India has the potential to make one if it really strives to. Come India you have some of the most brightest people/students i have seen(even here in U,K)

come on man. if India can't even get LCA on budget and time how could you expect them to do that with a 5th gen jet? it's no offense to India, but only a select few countries are capable to build such planes -U.S,China, and Russia-

they just don't have the expertise nor funds to pull it off solo
for one you they don't produce their own jet engines let alone one in the class of the F-22 and AL-41 on the Pak-FA
and a lot more goes into making a 5th gen jet.
it would cost India at least 30 to 50 billion just in R&D and probably over 10 years just to design and build a prototype.

 

[he-man]

come on man. if India can't even get LCA on budget and time how could you expect them to do that with a 5th gen jet? it's no offense to India, but only a select few countries are capable to build such planes -U.S,China, and Russia-

they just don't have the expertise nor funds to pull it off solo
for one you they don't produce their own jet engines let alone one in the class of the F-22 and AL-41 on the Pak-FA
and a lot more goes into making a 5th gen jet.
it would cost India at least 30 to 50 billion just in R&D and probably over 10 years just to design and build a prototype.

Right on...................it will take us at least 15 years to even attempt such a plane on our own and even then the engines will probably need to be imported.

 

[he-man]

Looks like trolls haven't come yet

 

[cirr]

IAF needs to be in the loop as a primary user. maaybe arup raha can take it up with his rusian counterpart. russia eeds cash. russia is not ussr. idrw is on hallucinogens.

Russia needs cash alright。

But India needs cash more than Russia does。

Never ever forget the fact that the Russian and Indian economies are about the same size。

Indian population：1.2 billion
Russian population：0.13 billion

It is hilarious for Indians to think that their country is loaded。

Remember：there are far more mouths to feed in India than in Russia，and there are far more places in India than Russia where cash is urgently needed。

 

[NKVD]

Russia needs cash alright。

But India needs cash more than Russia does。

Never ever forget the fact that the Russian and Indian economies are about the same size。

Indian population：1.2 billion
Russian population：0.13 billion

It is hilarious for Indians to think that their country is loaded。

Remember：there are far more mouths to feed in India than in Russia，and there are far more places in India than Russia where cash is urgently needed。

Here comes troll number 1:p

 

[he-man]

Here comes troll number 1:p

his assesement is spot on.

we are much much poorer than russia taking population into perspective and will remain so till we hit 4_5 trillion mark which may take another 15 years

Here comes troll number 1:p

 

[NKVD]

his assesement is spot on.

we are much much poorer than russia taking population into perspective and will remain so till we hit 4_5 trillion mark which may take another 15 years

We are hitting 4 trillion within this decade although IMF already predicted 3.4 trillion in 2019 itself even with present senerio .hope we make tax reforms other reforms as soon as possible it will increase these projection more.As for feeding people we already produce surplus food but real problem is still lies in distribution mechanism

 

[he-man]

We are hitting 4 trillion within this decade although IMF already predicted 3.4 trillion in 2019 itself even with present senerio .hope we make tax reforms other reforms as soon as possible it will increase these projection more

As i said we have a population of 1.3 billion,,,even with a similar population and 8 trillion$+ economy china is just a middle income country.

U are overestimating the amount of money we have,,,in ideal scenario if we had no pakistan and china as our foes we should have been spending just 15-20 billion on defence,,,but its not an ideal world now,is it

 

[NKVD]

As i said we have a population of 1.3 billion,,,even with a similar population and 8 trillion$+ economy china is just a middle income country.

U are overestimating the amount of money we have,,,in ideal scenario if we had no pakistan and china as our foes we should have been spending just 15-20 billion on defence,,,but its not an ideal world now,is it

yeah its no ideal world and So is our past GOI ' S.they lack vision in taking measures to control this problem so now we have to live with it. but we have prospects to grow more as we are a democratic nation unlike CCP .take USA as eg :we slowly moving towards that path.

 

[he-man]

yeah its no ideal world and So is are past GOI ' S lack vision they don't take measures to control it so now we have to live with it. but we have prospects to grow more as we are a democratic nation unlike CCP .take USA as eg :we slowly moving towards that path.

We will see,,,but without reforms we will surely sink..............these 5 years are crucial for the future

 

[kalanirnay]

Why can't India just make one themselves? I believe India has the capability/Man power/resources to make one if you really plan well and are determined to. Afterall, India can launch satellites in space and send one to mars, i belive they can make a 5th generation fighter Jet if they truly focus on making one. You have to start from somewhere, at this rate India will never be able to make one themselves and will keep depending on foreign powers(who wont want to share their latest tech to you people obviously, no matter how much you pay, which is understandable). There's only so much Russia can do for you/help you. If you dont try and be self reliant, there will be even more complains like this one.
I believe if China can make one(though they are way more advance than India), then India has the potential to make one if it really strives to. Come India you have some of the most brightest people/students i have seen(even here in U,K)

You ask a valid question, unfortunately the answer is, we cannot afford to build one yet.

Our R&D budget gets split up between the various Space, Missiles, A/C, naval and army developments. However we have hope if we can increase our R&D Budget, but that it not yet feasible.

We have made a start with the LCA for which we invested 1 billion $. 5th Gen would require at least 5-10 Billion $. If we spread that over 10 years then it is a doable project, but so far the vision was lacking. I suspect we are bringing that right back into focus.

However a cost sharing on the 5th gen a/c would make sense at this point. The only nations that fits the bill is Japan and Brazil. I think we might approach either of them with this plan. It is very much possible with clear strategic vision and political will to implement that vision.

The future is certainly much brighter for indigenous for 5th gen fighter and UAV like Aura.

 

[he-man]

You ask a valid question, unfortunately the answer is, we cannot afford to build one yet.

Our R&D budget gets split up between the various Space, Missiles, A/C, naval and army developments. However we have hope if we can increase our R&D Budget, but that it not yet feasible.

We have made a start with the LCA for which we invested 1 billion $. 5th Gen would require at least 5-10 Billion $. If we spread that over 10 years then it is a doable project, but so far the vision was lacking. I suspect we are bring that right back into focus.

However a cost sharing on the 5th gen a/c would make sense at this point. The only nations that fits the bill is Japan and Brazil. I think we might approach either of them with this plan. It is very much possible with clear strategic vision and political will to implement that vision.

The future is certainly much brighter for indigenous for 5th gen fighter and UAV like Aura.

Nope,wrong on all the counts.
Till drdo/HAL/ordnance factory board/gtre etc are not reformed and privatised in a cyclical manner,no amount of money will yield the results.

Plus 50 percent of workforce in public companies is through reservations,so essentially half the workforce is unfit to be there in the first place.

 

[kalanirnay]

come on man. if India can't even get LCA on budget and time how could you expect them to do that with a 5th gen jet? it's no offense to India, but only a select few countries are capable to build such planes -U.S,China, and Russia-

they just don't have the expertise nor funds to pull it off solo
for one you they don't produce their own jet engines let alone one in the class of the F-22 and AL-41 on the Pak-FA
and a lot more goes into making a 5th gen jet.
it would cost India at least 30 to 50 billion just in R&D and probably over 10 years just to design and build a prototype.

30-50 Billion $ in PPP terms comes to around 10-15 Billion $ which when spread over 10 years is doable.

It has nothing to do with technical expertise, only funding. We have the necessary technological base to pull it off.

We lag in micro electronics but we are expected to catch up in the next 5 years with dedicated capability building of our industrial base.

To develop a Jet Engine, a budget of at least 3-5 billion $ is required, however the kaveri engine has done wonders with its limited budget and lack of testing facilities. With sufficient funds, 5th gen engine is very much possible in the next 10-15 years. currently the kaveri will fly the Aura.

Funding is the major issue, that combined with political will.

Nope,wrong on all the counts.
Till drdo/HAL/ordnance factory board/gtre etc are not reformed and privatised in a cyclical manner,no amount of money will yield the results.

Plus 50 percent of workforce in public companies is through reservations,so essentially half the workforce is unfit to be there in the first place.

DRDO is just a means to an end. There are many other organizations both private and govt. who can take up work if funding is provided.

PSU workforce is just a strawman argument.

 

[he-man]

30-50 Billion $ in PPP terms comes to around 10-15 Billion $ which when spread over 10 years is doable.

It has nothing to do with technical expertise, only funding. We have the necessary technological base to pull it off.

We lag in micro electronics but we are expected to catch up in the next 5 years with dedicated capability building of our industrial base.

To develop a Jet Engine, a budget of at least 3-5 billion $ is required, however the kaveri engine has done wonders with its limited budget and lack of testing facilities. With sufficient funds, 5th gen engine is very much possible in the next 10-15 years.

Funding is the major issue, that combined with political will.



DRDO is just a means to an end. There are many other organizations both private and govt. who can take up work if funding is provided.

PSU workforce is just a strawman argument.

Its not a strawman argument,their achievements which are almost nil speaks the volumes.
I need not offer any argument