Is India handing over Blank Cheque to Russia for Pak-Fa Project ?

[NKVD]

Why can't India just make one themselves? I believe India has the capability/Man power/resources to make one if you really plan well and are determined to. Afterall, India can launch satellites in space and send one to mars, i belive they can make a 5th generation fighter Jet if they truly focus on making one. You have to start from somewhere, at this rate India will never be able to make one themselves and will keep depending on foreign powers(who wont want to share their latest tech to you people obviously, no matter how much you pay, which is understandable). There's only so much Russia can do for you/help you. If you dont try and be self reliant, there will be even more complains like this one.
I believe if China can make one(though they are way more advance than India), then India has the potential to make one if it really strives to. Come India you have some of the most brightest people/students i have seen(even here in U,K)

Eg: just tell me how many years did we take in our cryogenic engine to get it mature ??? Any idea so what do you think how many decades we will take to make a fully operational 5 gen fly in the air when we are not even fully develope capabilities to fly 4 gen fighter's like LCA.

 

[Ragnar]

Off topic: Wonder if any country is taking advantage of the unrest in Ukraine, and getting hold of military tech/disgruntled scientists? Like China did in '91?

In a decade or so from now, i can say China will be up ther with the U.S and Russia(they are ahead of the later in some fields already), but i cant say the same for India unfortunately.

We are laid-back people. We will get there after a few tea and cigarette breaks.

 

[mike2000]

Eg: just tell me how many years did we take in our cryogenic engine to get it mature ??? Any idea so what do you think how many decades we will take to make a fully operational 5 gen fly in the air when we are not even fully develope capabilities to fly 4 gen fighter's like LCA.

hmmm....i dont know about that, it will take time for sure, but then again, developing a fighter jet isnt easy, it takes time even for advanced/experienced nations like U.S. Its true India still hasnt been able to develop a credible 4th generation fighter jet(LCA), but then again it helped India gain some experience and learn from it, mistakes are the step stone to success. It would have been worse if India didnt even start it at all, and just depended on foreign jets, at least with LCA, you have learned/made mistakes from which can be used when you want to develop a new jet. You have to start from somewhere.

 

[axisofevil]

Off topic: Wonder if any country is taking advantage of the unrest in Ukraine, and getting hold of military tech/disgruntled scientists? Like China did in '91?

Countries like us should, but I dont think our gov't wil do so..

Eg: just tell me how many years did we take in our cryogenic engine to get it mature ??? Any idea so what do you think how many decades we will take to make a fully operational 5 gen fly in the air when we are not even fully develope capabilities to fly 4 gen fighter's like LCA.

Look at it from a different perspective. We put very little money into our research and educating our citizens. For decades it was nothing.... even now its still lower than the top 5. The point he is trying to make is you got to invest in your own country if you want to develop. He is correct.



I put an article showing up China is determined to build a thorium based nuclear reactor. China has told it scientists instead of the 10 yrs timeline, it wants the work to be completed in half the time. Guess what happened? China increased the number of scientists ( they are educating their ppl efficiently the same way they select ppl for the Olympic games) and they are increasing the shifts, so that this research works continously non stop till the work is done.

 

[mike2000]

Off topic: Wonder if any country is taking advantage of the unrest in Ukraine, and getting hold of military tech/disgruntled scientists? Like China did in '91?



We are laid-back people. We will get there after a few tea and cigarette breaks.

ahahahahahah, guess you really need some tea break as well. Slow and steady wins the race as they say. lol

 

[illusion8]

hmmm....i dont know about that, it will take time for sure, but then again, developing a fighter jet isnt easy, it takes time even for advanced/experienced nations like U.S. Its true India still hasnt been able to develop a credible 4th generation fighter jet(LCA), but then again it helped India gain some experience and learn from it, mistakes are the step stone to success. It would have been worse if India didnt even start it at all, and just depended on foreign jets, at least with LCA, you have learned/made mistakes from which can be used when you want to develop a new jet. You have to start from somewhere.

I would blame the IAF, but on the other hand wouldn't blame them either from their perspective.

 

[UKBengali]

@mike2000 :

I think you are severely overestimating current Indian technological base.

India may just about build a 4th generation fighter by 2020, minus engines, if everything goes right for the Tejas.

Although India has the money it lacks the technological base in order to be able to manufacture a 5th generaion fighter within the next decade. Around 2 decades from now may be possible.

China has already successfully designed both the 4th generation J-10 and JF-17 fighters and hence can try for 5th generation fighters like J-20 and J-31 now

 

[axisofevil]

hmmm....i dont know about that, it will take time for sure, but then again, developing a fighter jet isnt easy, it takes time even for advanced/experienced nations like U.S. Its true India still hasnt been able to develop a credible 4th generation fighter jet(LCA), but then again it helped India gain some experience and learn from it, mistakes are the step stone to success. It would have been worse if India didnt even start it at all, and just depended on foreign jets, at least with LCA, you have learned/made mistakes from which can be used when you want to develop a new jet. You have to start from somewhere.

What NKVD doesnt realize is how India shot itself in the foot in fighter jet development. It was able to develop the Marut HAL HF-24.


HAL HF-24 Marut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If the plan doesn't work, don't change the goal....change the plan!

 

[NKVD]

hmmm....i dont know about that, it will take time for sure, but then again, developing a fighter jet isnt easy, it takes time even for advanced/experienced nations like U.S. Its true India still hasnt been able to develop a credible 4th generation fighter jet(LCA), but then again it helped India gain some experience and learn from it, mistakes are the step stone to success. It would have been worse if India didnt even start it at all, and just depended on foreign jets, at least with LCA, you have learned/made mistakes from which can be used when you want to develop a new jet. You have to start from somewhere.

Do you even know about depleted squadrons of IAF.pilots are still flying 40 years old tech like mig-21; 23,27 there crash rate is high.we stuck in a time gap in which we have to retire aircrafts which consists 30-40% of our air fleet within a decade or so our hands are tied GOI also considering all french built option in Mmrca as it will stop timegap.as far of developing 5 gen aircraft Hal is has plan to develop Amca but due to our Amateur aeronautical infrastructure & lack of technical knowledge and industrial base it will take us decades to develop such capability therefore it's more profitable to take help of power's who have technical knowledge and Industrial base and experience to develop such projects like Russians or western nation.
Hence, it will save our time And money plus it will cost effective also therefore, JV with Russia is good and most intelligent bid that India is placed.

 

[NKVD]

What NKVD doesnt realize is how India shot itself in the foot in fighter jet development. It was able to develop the Marut HAL HF-24.


HAL HF-24 Marut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



If the plan doesn't work, don't change the goal....change the plan!

Yes do realise but hence you do also realise failures of Hal eg LCA Hal babus are can't achieve anything unless private parties involved

 

[mike2000]

@mike2000 :

I think you are severely overestimating current Indian technological base.

India may just about build a 4th generation fighter by 2020, minus engines, if everything goes right for the Tejas.

Although India has the money it lacks the technological base in order to be able to manufacture a 5th generaion fighter within the next decade. Around 2 decades from now may be possible.

China has already successfully designed both the 4th generation J-10 and JF-17 fighters and hence can try for 5th generation fighters like J-20 and J-31 now

I know, im not comparing Chinas capablities to India, since i know by now that China is on a different League as it has the industrial might to produce such stuffs and even export them contrary to India who finds it even difficult to meets its own local needs, talk less of exports.
What im pointing out is that, India should first strive to do things on their own, its better than not trying at all. They have to invest more in eductaion, science, industry and create a favorable climate for industries to strive, from this will have the necessary base to produce many critical products. In this regard, i think China choosed the correct path, since they first focused on their economy/education,industry, manufacturing,improving infrastructure,living standards,science and other before venturing more into building up their military. Its just this past decade that they really started focusing more on their military, and even with that, surprisngly they spend quite small as a ratio of GDP compared to other major powers.

Seems India choosed its priority wrong or something.

 

[axisofevil]

Yes do realise but hence you do also realise failures of Hal eg LCA Hal babus are can't achieve anything unless private parties involved

I know bro, HAL is one big f-king joke....

Plz spread this around....its off topic but it shows how a country like Afghan will deal with gang rape effectively


Afghans sentenced to death over gang-rape - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English

 

[nvKyleBrown]

India had severe problems with engine design/construction. LCA was to use an Indian engine - after much money spent, it is actually using an older GE engine (F404). Wikipedia's articles on Tejas and the Kaveri are inconsistent on the future of the engine. The Tejas article suggests the GE F414 will be used going forward, the Kaveri article claims it will be used. If the F414 and Kaveri articles are to be believed, the F414 is a better engine - lighter and more powerful.

I have some doubts too about the actual v real numbers of the Kaveri. Given the political pressure on the project to succeed, it would not surprise me at all if there were some fudging of the numbers for political/PR gain. There are a lot of fudging words in the article "suggest" "interested" "could be" "plans to" "should be" etc. Straight from Wiki -- "Another criticism has been DRDO's reluctance to admit problems in the engine and its resistance to involve foreign engine manufacturers until the problems became too large to handle." That and the bitching that other countries won't hand over their technology (you really expect that??), well, it doesn't sound like a group ready to be honest about what they can actually do. But hey, it's India's air force, let them do it their own way.

As it stands, the GE engine is about 11-12% lighter, and about 11-12% more powerful (F414), and proven in the field (1000 delivered, 1M flight hours, vs a few prototypes tested for <1000hrs so far). The F404 used for proto-Tejas had about the same power as Kaveri, but weighs less than the F414 by a couple hundred pounds, so still not a thrust-weight match. I don't have any numbers on maintainability, or fuel-efficiency, which would both be factors as well. The F404/414 family was designed with cost as a main objective though, so I'm guessing that would be a hard family to beat, especially your first time out.

(based on Wikipedia info - if you have better, point me to it please!)

 

[Ragnar]

That and the bitching that other countries won't hand over their technology (you really expect that??), well, it doesn't sound like a group ready to be honest about what they can actually do. But hey, it's India's air force, let them do it their own way.

1998 sanctions after nuclear tests set India back badly. But no denying that the entire project was a flop from the beginning. There is no reviving Kaveri. Doubt if you will find a good source on the internet- most sources are apologetic and covering-up. This forum's LCA discussions are a good source. Some senior members like Joe Shearer have expressed opinions that the GTRE should have been scrapped for criminal incompetence. Not surprising for an Indian government establishment.

 

[Kloitra]

hmmm....i dont know about that, it will take time for sure, but then again, developing a fighter jet isnt easy, it takes time even for advanced/experienced nations like U.S. Its true India still hasnt been able to develop a credible 4th generation fighter jet(LCA), but then again it helped India gain some experience and learn from it, mistakes are the step stone to success. It would have been worse if India didnt even start it at all, and just depended on foreign jets, at least with LCA, you have learned/made mistakes from which can be used when you want to develop a new jet. You have to start from somewhere.

There is one project in pipeline. Unfortunately several of current fighter squadrons would be phasing out before that becomes reality. Now factor in Russian experience, their declared timeline for production, available facilities in India, and several other factors like that. It appears to be a safe bet to expect the Russian 5th gen replacing the aging fleet followed by Indian one.

Yes do realise but hence you do also realise failures of Hal eg LCA Hal babus are can't achieve anything unless private parties involved

It is wrong to unilaterally blame HAL for everything. Indian research agencies are some of the most cash strapped in the world. Without proper financing and facilities, you can't expect them to deliver.