Iran lost its only airborne early-warning plane

[wangrong]

Iran lost its only airborne early-warning plane in an aerial collision above a big military parade in Tehran that showcased the country's growing ballistic missile arsenal.

The Tuesday collision left Iran's military without any electronic eyes in the sky at a time when Tehran fears Israel plans to launch a pre-emptive strike against the Islamic Republic's nuclear program.

But according to Strategic Forecasting, a private intelligence and security consultancy based in Austin, Texas, the loss of the Iranian Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft, known as AWACS, is probably not as dramatic as it may seem.

The AWACS, a dilapidated Soviet-era Ilyushin that once belonged to Saddam Hussein's air force, collided with one of two U.S-built F-5E fighters escorting it. Neither aircraft radioed a mayday so the incident was likely over in a few seconds.

According to reports, both planes crashed in flames. The F-5's two-man crew ejected, but all seven crewmen aboard the AWACS apparently perished.

The aircraft, a modified Il-76 transport (NATO designation "Candid"), is believed to have carried electronic equipment that was in all probability outdated and thus of limited military effectiveness or value.

The jet – known in Iran as the Simogh, a fabled flying creature which performs wonders in the air – was one of three modified by the Iraqi air force during the 1980-88 war with Iran and was known as the "Adnan."

One was destroyed by in an Allied air strike in the Desert Storm war of 1991. Two, including the one lost Tuesday, were among dozens of Iraqi aircraft flown to Iran toward the end of the conflict, apparently for safekeeping.

After the conflict, Tehran refused to return the aircraft and absorbed many, including the AWACS, into its own air force. The second Iranian AWACS apparently became non-operational several years ago.

The Iranian air force has lost several aircraft, including two transports, in the last few years, and these have been attributed to poor maintenance, lack of spares because of a U.S.-led arms embargo and poor training.

One AWACS aircraft cannot provide round-the-clock early warning coverage, so the Ilyushin's value was extremely limited.

Stratfor noted that even if the AWACS had been integrated into Iran's air defense network, which analysts say has many shortcomings, "it would not have provided Iran with much of a leg up. Iran's central defense strategy does not rely on its air force. Knowing all too well where its qualitative disadvantages lie, Iran focuses on asymmetric challenges to conventional military power. …

"Put simply: Even if the lost aircraft was Iran's only AWACs, the status of Iran's security remains unchanged."

 

[Metallic]

Photo of ill-fated IRIAF Il-76MD taken the day before the crash.



Video: after the crash

 

[TOPGUN]

well they need something asap as some have there eyes on them.

 

[muse]

After the conflict, Tehran refused to return the aircraft and absorbed many, including the AWACS, into its own air force. The second Iranian AWACS apparently became non-operational several years ago

A lesser known fact is that the Iranian, while the American occupied Iraq, hunted down and killed every Iraqi fighter pilot that participated in the Iran/Iraq war and those Iraqi Air force pilots who fled Iraq, survived.

 

[PAFAce]

Is the fate of the pilots known? Also, what do you guys think, will Iran ever be able to procure Chinese AEW&C systems? My personal view is that if China succeeds in finding a way to equip Iran with significant low-to-med-tech equipment, Defence Aviation sales (including, say, an export variant of a KJ-2000) might not be completely out of their range. That is, if the Chinese are willing to sell to them, of course. Few countries in the world would risk trade with Europe and North America for close-ties with Iran, but China seems to be one of those maverick nations.

A lesser known fact is that the Iranian, while the American occupied Iraq, hunted down and killed every Iraqi fighter pilot that participated in the Iran/Iraq war and those Iraqi Air force pilots who fled Iraq, survived.

Please, sir, shed some light on whether these were purely revenge killings or strategic ones. I mean, if they succeeding in depriving the Iraqi Air Force of their best trained pilots, maybe it was to pave way for future aerial aggression. Otherwise, revenge killings kind of seem useless, from the Iranian governments standpoint, don't you think?

dumbasses ...

Enlightening observation, buddy.

 

[Sapper]

Is the fate of the pilots known? Also, what do you guys think, will Iran ever be able to procure Chinese AEW&C systems? My personal view is that if China succeeds in finding a way to equip Iran with significant low-to-med-tech equipment, Defence Aviation sales (including, say, an export variant of a KJ-2000) might not be completely out of their range. That is, if the Chinese are willing to sell to them, of course. Few countries in the world would risk trade with Europe and North America for close-ties with Iran, but China seems to be one of those maverick nations.

I don't think China will be providing Iran with any military hardware in near future. The thing we Pakistani's forget very often is that, although an Islamic nation, Iran is allied with India and not Pakistan. Iran WAS allied with Pakistan at time of Shah, when both Pakistan and Iran were part of American block in south asia region, but after shah, Iran aligned with russia and consequently with India, while we remained with American block for another couple of decades, before being thrashed around.

Do remember that all the logistics being provided to Afghans by India is coming through China, and all logistics to Bloch rebels (from India) is also being distributed using Iranian borders. Iran is still an Indian ally, we should never forget that.

It will be BAD news for Pakistan & China, if China sells its hardware to Iran, since it will make its way to Indian Scrutiny in an instant, and India is the major rival of both China and Pakistan in this region.

(offtopic) the "dumbasses" comment is because i always hate using military equipment for "show" purposes. I know its beautiful and all, but most of the histories worst and costly peacetime accidents have happened in air-shows. Many multi-aircraft collisions, including prototype collisions and many many more have left the airforces' in losses of maybe billions of dollars in total. Of the top of my mind are accidents of Valkyrie, F16s, Black Hawk, F18s, Mig29s, Sukhois etc. Stop risking millions and billions of dollars of equipment for aesthetic purposes. These are war machines, not racing cars, let them do their job.

 

[wangrong]

 

[insight-out]

The jet – known in Iran as the Simogh, a fabled flying creature which performs wonders in the air – was one of three modified by the Iraqi air force during the 1980-88 war with Iran and was known as the "Adnan."

One was destroyed by in an Allied air strike in the Desert Storm war of 1991. Two, including the one lost Tuesday, were among dozens of Iraqi aircraft flown to Iran toward the end of the conflict, apparently for safekeeping.

After the conflict, Tehran refused to return the aircraft and absorbed many, including the AWACS, into its own air force. The second Iranian AWACS apparently became non-operational several years ago.

I think the above paragraphs are the most telling. After the first Gulf war in 1990, Iraq was put under severe economic and military sanctions. They were desperate for help from any where. Saddam was still in power and the army and state had not collapsed as they did after the 2003 invasion. I find it revealing that when Iraq was in this state of desperation, Iran decided to take advantage and essentially steal these planes. Its true that Iran and Iraq weren't the best of friends as they had just ended there eight year war. But the planes were flown to Iran for safekeeping. There must have been an understanding that they will be returned. But Iran refused.

While Pakistan has no major conflicts with Iran, I think we should not get carried away with the "brotherly nation" fallacy. Iran has and will always act in its own interests, even if its at Pakistan's expense. We have had divergent interests and positions in many regional and global issues, including Afghanistan and Iran's dubious relationship with India, to name just two. I am not anti Iran at all. I wish for good relations between the two countries. But in times of distress, we should not have too many hopes from our Western neighbour.

 

[Cheetah786]

I think the above paragraphs are the most telling. After the first Gulf war in 1990, Iraq was put under severe economic and military sanctions. They were desperate for help from any where. Saddam was still in power and the army and state had not collapsed as they did after the 2003 invasion. I find it revealing that when Iraq was in this state of desperation, Iran decided to take advantage and essentially steal these planes. Its true that Iran and Iraq weren't the best of friends as they had just ended there eight year war. But the planes were flown to Iran for safekeeping. There must have been an understanding that they will be returned. But Iran refused.

While Pakistan has no major conflicts with Iran, I think we should not get carried away with the "brotherly nation" fallacy. Iran has and will always act in its own interests, even if its at Pakistan's expense. We have had divergent interests and positions in many regional and global issues, including Afghanistan and Iran's dubious relationship with India, to name just two. I am not anti Iran at all. I wish for good relations between the two countries. But in times of distress, we should not have too many hopes from our Western neighbour.

Let me get this straight you attack a country first then you send your jet fighters to that country for safe keeping is that what you are saying?
those iranians should be shot (iraqi piolts flew out of iraq into iran with there equipmet for refuge in iran saddam didnt make a call and requested a please save my jets so i can attack you with these at a later date.)come to think of it dont we have some afghans fighters that flew into pakistan did we return them to afghansitan?

on another note what do u think pakistans position should be with terrorist and alqaida we all no they are arabs and most if not all money is comming from House of saud so what should be our responce to them or thats of topic and we are talking about iran and not saudia.

so i take it when we were given nuclear tech to iran our people were actually helping india via iran as u said indian will get all that am corect so far so we were helping a enemy nation excellent.
you are another one eyed blind and can only see fron one eye and the other one is closed.saudi terrorist pakistani bhai bhai iranians are our enemy.
uou might wanna c where BLA top leader ship is based out of before blaming iran let me help in that department its in UAE u no bhai bhai nation

 

[insight-out]

Let me get this straight you attack a country first then you send your jet fighters to that country for safe keeping is that what you are saying?
those iranians should be shot (iraqi piolts flew out of iraq into iran with there equipmet for refuge in iran saddam didnt make a call and requested a please save my jets so i can attack you with these at a later date.)come to think of it dont we have some afghans fighters that flew into pakistan did we return them to afghansitan?

on another note what do u think pakistans position should be with terrorist and alqaida we all no they are arabs and most if not all money is comming from House of saud so what should be our responce to them or thats of topic and we are talking about iran and not saudia.

so i take it when we were given nuclear tech to iran our people were actually helping india via iran as u said indian will get all that am corect so far so we were helping a enemy nation excellent.
you are another one eyed blind and can only see fron one eye and the other one is closed.saudi terrorist pakistani bhai bhai iranians are our enemy.
uou might wanna c where BLA top leader ship is based out of before blaming iran let me help in that department its in UAE u no bhai bhai nation

That is nothing but disinformation. The Saudi government is not providing direct monetary support to the militants attacking Pakistan. There are certain elements in Saudi Arabia who finance these militants, but its not the government. In fact, the position of Saudi sponsored clerics has been clear. They have given several fatwas against suicide bombings anywhere, including Israel. Don't get me wrong. I am not a supporter of the Saudi establishment. They have done much harm to the Muslim world, and Pakistan. But you also have to remember that we do have a strategic alliance with them. They have financed many projects both civil and defence related. You could say, the cons are somewhat offset by the pros. Thats why I call it a "strategic alliance".

In any case, my comment was not related to Saudi Arabia. It was about Iran. You are trying to divert the focus of the discussion from Iran to Saudi. In another thread (here) you asked for proof that Iran and India were cooperating in the area of defence/military. I provided you with this article from Jane's. The fact is that Iran and India do cooperate. You can't ignore that fact. Iran also has clearly different interests and objectives as far as Afghanistan is concerned. And Iran has not made any significant investment in Pakistan, military or otherwise.

Again, I am not saying we should be hostile to our neighbour. But we cannot rely on them in our time of need.

 

[Enigma SIG]

That is nothing but disinformation. The Saudi government is not providing direct monetary support to the militants attacking Pakistan. There are certain elements in Saudi Arabia who finance these militants, but its not the government. In fact, the position of Saudi sponsored clerics has been clear. They have given several fatwas against suicide bombings anywhere, including Israel. Don't get me wrong. I am not a supporter of the Saudi establishment. They have done much harm to the Muslim world, and Pakistan. But you also have to remember that we do have a strategic alliance with them. They have financed many projects both civil and defence related. You could say, the cons are somewhat offset by the pros. Thats why I call it a "strategic alliance".

In any case, my comment was not related to Saudi Arabia. It was about Iran. You are trying to divert the focus of the discussion from Iran to Saudi. In another thread (here) you asked for proof that Iran and India were cooperating in the area of defence/military. I provided you with this article from Jane's. The fact is that Iran and India do cooperate. You can't ignore that fact. Iran also has clearly different interests and objectives as far as Afghanistan is concerned. And Iran has not made any significant investment in Pakistan, military or otherwise.

Again, I am not saying we should be hostile to our neighbour. But we cannot rely on them in our time of need.

After the rule of the shah ended and Khomeini came to power; everyone turned their guns on Iran; including Pakistan and relations turned more sour in Zia's era; it was the GoP's fault that brought Iran closer to India. India too has a muslim population almost equal to Pakistan's.

The whole arab muslim world deems them as heretics, including your's truly Pakistan's sunni ulema; still you beat around the bush saying oh Iran is not with us. Gaali bi do aur kaho k tm hamare saath bi nai ho wah bai wah

Iran obviously has its own interests in Afghanistan; as does Pakistan. Iran supporting the BLA is nothing but propaganda. Iran has the same problem in Zahedan when in may terrorists blew up inside an Imam bargah Blast in Zahedan kills 30
Why would it support the baloch rebels when Iran itself is having problems in Sistan-Baluchistan...?

 

[arslan_treen]

i for one can never forget iran for crying like a little baby infront in nuclear inspecters and telling them that all the equipment was given to them by pakistan and even showing them the pictures of equipment with made in paksitan written on them !! which then lead to Mushrraf is a peril at that time and he was force to make A K the scap goat the decision which necessery at that time will hunt him for ever .. so for me .. iran is nothing more then a hostile state !!
p.s please stop goin for you own religious sect and reliease the facts and history .

 

[Enigma SIG]

i for one can never forget iran for crying like a little baby infront in nuclear inspecters and telling them that all the equipment was given to them by pakistan and even showing them the pictures of equipment with made in paksitan written on them !! which then lead to Mushrraf is a peril at that time and he was force to make A K the scap goat the decision which necessery at that time will hunt him for ever .. so for me .. iran is nothing more then a hostile state !!
p.s please stop goin for you own religious sect and reliease the facts and history .

Our scientists had previously accepted selling nuclear technology to Iran; they did not disclose something new. Iran has its own interests, i am not blind-loving Iran by myself being a shia, 30 years of isolation and hatred by the majority muslim world does take its tolls though.

Complete timeline of events of AQ Khan

 

[Patriot]

The Arab hatred for Iran is i agree unjustified but i don't know why Iranians hate us so much.In their defense forums Pakistanis usually get banned or abused.It's just disgusting to see cheeta786 justify Iran and show his love for Iran just because he is shia.Dude who would you support if there is a war between Pakistan or Iran..Iran?In any case, it's not that Pakistan has done any better for Iran.He bring arabs in every thread to justify his lust for Iran..I dont give 2 rats about Arab world but Iran is no angel either.Arabs are bloody fools..they should concentrate on Israel not on Iran.In fact, build Iran's millitary slowly fund it..etc

 

[Enigma SIG]

The Arab hatred for Iran is i agree unjustified but i don't know why Iranians hate us so much.In their defense forums Pakistanis usually get banned or abused.It's just disgusting to see cheeta786 justify Iran and show his love for Iran just because he is shia.Dude who would you support if there is a war between Pakistan or Iran..Iran?In any case, it's not that Pakistan has done any better for Iran.He bring arabs in every thread to justify his lust for Iran..I dont give 2 rats about Arab world but Iran is no angel either.Arabs are bloody fools..they should concentrate on Israel not on Iran.In fact, build Iran's millitary slowly fund it..etc

Love for Iran is purely on a religious basis; just as love for Saudi Arabia is on a purely religious basis. Do you have any justification for some Pakistani's kissing up to the house of saud...?

There will be no war b/w Iran & Pakistan; dont know where you came up with that. Relationships b/w countries are based on mutual respect and national interests; more like you scratch my back i'll scratch yours.

Previous governments in Pakistan freely nurtured anti-shia elements like sipah sahaba and lashkar e jhagvi and let them loose all over the place like rabid dogs. Iran as as the most prominent shia populace therefore took a beef with Pakistan protesting the anti-shia policy; now the situation has changed though and relations are easing out a bit...

-------------------------

Back to topic though; i'm not sure how the Iran Airforce is kept in flying condition with all the spare part embargoes on them. Their planes keep dropping out of the sky like flies