Indonesia Defence Forum

[Nike]

Apakah akan di Plastidip menjadi cat TNI AD utk ikut HUT TNI

can't do, they are rented goods

 

[Gundala]

Emang sales nih orang. Tapi kok statement kayak lesu gitu..

Never underestimate the power of mamarika lobby. Tar kyk Mesir, dah beli rafale mau beli rudalnya ga dikasih sama mamarika krn msh ada teknologi mrka, sampe Perancis ngomel. Ujung2nya mereka beli SU-35 juga Reality bites

Tho to be honest this is not the best time to "diversify", SCS crisis/Covid/Economic situation left us with not much room to dance. Viper is the most logic/wise choice for now.

 

[Nike]

Look like this happened in Indonesia

Hmm this Thailand one

 

[Ruhnama]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1294056342869569536

Emang sales nih orang. Tapi kok statement kayak lesu gitu..

Sorri pake indonesia aja ya. Sebenernya dia tih peneliti, byk org yg yakin ama doi (search di google schoolar) nah terus dia denger2 sih salah satu (gw gatau bahasanya apa) kontraktor nya bidang pertahanan ataua apalahnya amerika. Dia sering ikut acara hut 4 Juli plus ada yg bilang kalo ada apa2 dimarih dia tinggal kabur ke amrik. Orgnya juga galak lho katanya suka semprot.

Btw..

Old news

New Pihak ketiga for Israeli defence product?
Barak 8, Spyder, Derby, and Elbit JHMCS please?!

100% halal, likely people will not suspicious with UAE. So likely we can say : make in india, made in azeri, made in UAE lol.

looks like our disaster mitigation departement rent a new toys , and that's a hell of a toys.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View attachment 660884 View attachment 660885

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

This for SAR right? Are this kind chopper can use for firefighter?

 

[NEKONEKO]

Apakah akan di Plastidip menjadi cat TNI AD utk ikut HUT TNI

Its not for the army.

 

[mejikuhibiu]

Sorri pake indonesia aja ya. Sebenernya dia tih peneliti, byk org yg yakin ama doi (search di google schoolar) nah terus dia denger2 sih salah satu (gw gatau bahasanya apa) kontraktor nya bidang pertahanan ataua apalahnya amerika. Dia sering ikut acara hut 4 Juli plus ada yg bilang kalo ada apa2 dimarih dia tinggal kabur ke amrik. Orgnya juga galak lho katanya suka semprot.

100% halal, likely people will not suspicious with UAE. So likely we can say : make in india, made in azeri, made in UAE lol.

This for SAR right? Are this kind chopper can use for firefighter?

Lebih ke marketing dr perusahaan konsorsium pertahanan dr US..

 

[mejikuhibiu]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3379672328761824

 

[Kansel]

Indonesia needs to upgrade US alliance to fend off Chinese aggression
Jakarta says Beijing is encroaching on Natuna Sea but it cannot resist by itself

Emanuele Scimia
July 25, 2020 21:15 JST

China Coast Guard ship is seen from an Indonesian naval ship in the Natuna Sea on January 11: Indonesia is left with only one viable option. © Antara Foto/Reuters
Emanuele Scimia is a journalist and analyst with several media outlets, covering foreign affairs and defense issues.

The Natuna Sea, which surrounds a chain of Indonesian islands off the northwest coast of Borneo, has become the latest point of dispute in the fight between China and its Southeast Asian neighbors over the South China Sea.

Indonesia, which claims the Natuna Sea as part of its exclusive economic zone, or EEZ, has formally joined the fray against China, which says it has rights over it and nearby waters encompassed by its "nine-dash line" map-marking. On June 18, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi said there was no reason to negotiate with China on fishing activities around the Natuna archipelago.


But what if China were to ignore the Jakarta government's diplomatic muscle-flexing and continue to send warships, coastguard vessels and maritime militia boats to assert its "historical" fishing rights in the area?

Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions in the Natuna Sea, which borders the southwestern edge of the South China Sea, at least on its own. Given that Southeast Asian solidarity against Beijing is not in sight, Indonesia is left with only one viable option -- upgrading its military relationship with the U.S.

Indonesian naval forces have often had to push back against Chinese fishing trawlers escorted by military or armed Coast Guard ships. The latest incident occurred in December, when Chinese vessels entered the Natuna Sea, prompting Indonesia to deploy fighter jets and warships in the area.

Indonesian F-16 fighter jet flies above the nation's naval ship in the Natuna Sea on January 10: Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions at least on its own. © Antara Foto/Reuters
Indonesia has now grounded its protest in law. In two notes lodged to U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres on May 26 and June 12, the Indonesian government said China's nine-dash line had no legal basis and ran against the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS.

Furthermore, the Indonesians voiced support for the 2016 ruling by the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague which dismissed Chinese territorial claims to the region. The case before the international tribunal was filed by the Philippines which, along with Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei, opposes China's occupation and militarization of islets, coral reefs and shoals in the South China Sea.


But as retired Indonesian Admiral Eden Gunawan has said, the UNCLOS legal framework is not strong enough to stop Chinese and other foreign fishing boats from encroaching on his country's EEZ.

With more than 17,500 islands and numerous chokepoints, Indonesia is vulnerable to external attacks. The Indonesian Navy has adopted a defense-in-depth strategy to counter foreign intrusions in its EEZ and protect its maritime borders. In essence, the Indonesians send their coastguard ships and warships to face foreign vessels of the same type, in accordance with UNCLOS rules.

At the moment, Indonesia has deployed some naval units in the Natuna waters. It is also committed to building up an air and naval base at Besar, the main island in the Natuna Regency, or sub-province, and increasing the presence of local fishing boats to exercise sovereignty over the area.

However, the coronavirus pandemic has hit the country's economy hard, pushing the Jakarta government to trim military spending by $588 million this year -- the initial military budget for 2020 stood at $9.3 billion.

Like other Southeast Asian nations, Indonesia would prefer not to pick a side in the U.S.-China rivalry. The status quo has always been the first option for Jakarta and its neighbors, with the U.S. balancing China.

Unity and coordination among the 10 members of ASEAN on the South China Sea issue would certainly help deter China's assertiveness, but it is a long shot at the moment. This is the same for signing a binding code of conduct for activities in the strategic waterway between the Southeast Asian bloc and Beijing.

Against this backdrop, with the tit-for-tat competition between the two powers escalating, neutrality risks becoming unsustainable for regional actors at odds with the Chinese.

The Indonesian government should recognize the harsh reality and act accordingly. The idea of expanding military ties with the U.S. finds support from some in the Indonesian military's senior ranks. They say their country has been cooperating militarily with Washington for more than 40 years, focusing on joint exercises and drills, but believe such a cooperation needs to be taken to a higher level, similar to an alliance, to make sure China will not dictate its policy in the region.

The upgraded relationship could be modeled after the U.S.-Singapore military pact, which grants U.S. forces access to the Singapore's naval and air bases, including the deployment on a rotational basis of spy planes and littoral combat ships.

The Indonesian Navy could coordinate its defense-in-depth approach with U.S. freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea, and the U.S. Navy could contribute to patrolling the sprawling Indonesian archipelago.

In this way, Indonesia would flesh out its defenses against the Chinese, while the U.S. would gain an active partner in its efforts to contain China within the China seas and the Strait of Taiwan -- an American version of Beijing's anti-access, area denial strategy.

Falling short of a full alliance with Washington, Singapore has kept enough elasticity to maintain close links with China. Indonesia's enhanced defense relationship with the U.S. should be established on the same assumption.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Ind...de-US-alliance-to-fend-off-Chinese-aggression

Should we?

 

[¿Por qué?]

Never underestimate the power of mamarika lobby. Tar kyk Mesir, dah beli rafale mau beli rudalnya ga dikasih sama mamarika krn msh ada teknologi mrka, sampe Perancis ngomel. Ujung2nya mereka beli SU-35 juga Reality bites

Tho to be honest this is not the best time to "diversify", SCS crisis/Covid/Economic situation left us with not much room to dance. Viper is the most logic/wise choice for now.

This is what bothers me. How come they managed to buy SU-35 (24 of them!) after all that. After Rafale/SCALP fiasco they still didn't bother to purchase U.S. jets.

Maybe we should do the same

Just proceed with the old $1.1b deal to get 11 SU-35, and convert the budget for 32 F-16V (was it $4.5b?) to get SU-35 instead. We go full Russian

Now this is interesting, Russian news agency TASS said that the Russians started producing SU-35s for Egypt in May 2020. Now the first 5 of them arrived already in August 2020. If this news is valid, then the production line for SU-35 is probably rather empty now. If we want to switch TNI-AU to be totally independent of U.S. made jets/missiles/parts then maybe this is the right time.

CAATSA (hopefully) won't last forever and looking at the current geopolitical climate, we might probably see a future where the U.S. will have less and less close allies in Europe. Maybe go full Russian would be much better for us (TNI-AU) than all the other alternatives.

 

[Raduga]

looks like the dsme 209 still a go

 

[umigami]

This is what bothers me. How come they managed to buy SU-35 (24 of them!) after all that. After Rafale/SCALP fiasco they still didn't bother to purchase U.S. jets.

Maybe we should do the same

Just proceed with the old $1.1b deal to get 11 SU-35, and convert the budget for 32 F-16V (was it $4.5b?) to get SU-35 instead. We go full Russian

Now this is interesting, Russian news agency TASS said that the Russians started producing SU-35s for Egypt in May 2020. Now the first 5 of them arrived already in August 2020. If this news is valid, then the production line for SU-35 is probably rather empty now. If we want to switch TNI-AU to be totally independent of U.S. made jets/missiles/parts then maybe this is the right time.

CAATSA (hopefully) won't last forever and looking at the current geopolitical climate, we might probably see a future where the U.S. will have less and less close allies in Europe. Maybe go full Russian would be much better for us (TNI-AU) than all the other alternatives.

Oh man, this talk again..
Para-Suhus here gonna explain link16, bad russian after sales, incompatibility with the rest AF infrastructure, flanker's bad BVR capability, chinese already use; studied; and improve that thing, etc, etc, all over again and again.

Then the Russian fans boy can't give valid contra arguments, went silent for a moment, and then him (or other new user) coming back with pretty much the same argument.

 

[umigami]

looks like the dsme 209 still a go
View attachment 661183

Time to say goodbye to u214, scopene, reiss class, and 70s second submarine?

 

[Nike]

The only thing we can do to avoid embargoe and other country imposed sanction is to increase our military spending and buying arms at large number to enlarge the market and the most IMPORTANT is to have a whole chain of Defense related industry at minimum like what Russian, France and UK had!!! And to do that you need accumulation of times and dedicated policies and implementation for long times to nurture your defense industry.

The above countries i mentioned had all necessary infrastructure to build up their defense posture, including critical technologies like computer system, high performance turbofan engine for fighter, ejection seat system, optical system for electronic sensor, metallurgy capacity to build armor and frame for critical components, and so on. You can see except Japan and Germany which is part of big player in the past, there is no one can beat them in the game as one needed accumulation of know how scientific knowledge to do that. Not even China can do that instantly.

What i hope is Indonesia can emulate what South Korean and Turkey doing right now, and starting to accumulate the technological know how and building industrial complexes to support our defense posture, and to do that you need long term planning and program. Another example is China Communist had started right away after they drive the Nationalist in 1949 when they starting to make clone of PPH 41 and other Soviet small arms including mortar and field artillery pieces and had using the weapons to fight the American in Korean war. And then they build licensed units of other Soviet aircraft and tanks like Mig 19, Mig 15, T 54/55, PT 76 and so on and that's became basic of their current defense industry. If we are perceived to made everything indigenously like big power do, you must invest more on defense spending and doing a lot of stuff yourself including license producing and steal other technologies

 

[Chestnut]

Indonesia needs to upgrade US alliance to fend off Chinese aggression
Jakarta says Beijing is encroaching on Natuna Sea but it cannot resist by itself

Emanuele Scimia
July 25, 2020 21:15 JST

China Coast Guard ship is seen from an Indonesian naval ship in the Natuna Sea on January 11: Indonesia is left with only one viable option. © Antara Foto/Reuters
Emanuele Scimia is a journalist and analyst with several media outlets, covering foreign affairs and defense issues.

The Natuna Sea, which surrounds a chain of Indonesian islands off the northwest coast of Borneo, has become the latest point of dispute in the fight between China and its Southeast Asian neighbors over the South China Sea.

Indonesia, which claims the Natuna Sea as part of its exclusive economic zone, or EEZ, has formally joined the fray against China, which says it has rights over it and nearby waters encompassed by its "nine-dash line" map-marking. On June 18, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi said there was no reason to negotiate with China on fishing activities around the Natuna archipelago.


But what if China were to ignore the Jakarta government's diplomatic muscle-flexing and continue to send warships, coastguard vessels and maritime militia boats to assert its "historical" fishing rights in the area?

Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions in the Natuna Sea, which borders the southwestern edge of the South China Sea, at least on its own. Given that Southeast Asian solidarity against Beijing is not in sight, Indonesia is left with only one viable option -- upgrading its military relationship with the U.S.

Indonesian naval forces have often had to push back against Chinese fishing trawlers escorted by military or armed Coast Guard ships. The latest incident occurred in December, when Chinese vessels entered the Natuna Sea, prompting Indonesia to deploy fighter jets and warships in the area.

Indonesian F-16 fighter jet flies above the nation's naval ship in the Natuna Sea on January 10: Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions at least on its own. © Antara Foto/Reuters
Indonesia has now grounded its protest in law. In two notes lodged to U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres on May 26 and June 12, the Indonesian government said China's nine-dash line had no legal basis and ran against the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS.

Furthermore, the Indonesians voiced support for the 2016 ruling by the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague which dismissed Chinese territorial claims to the region. The case before the international tribunal was filed by the Philippines which, along with Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei, opposes China's occupation and militarization of islets, coral reefs and shoals in the South China Sea.


But as retired Indonesian Admiral Eden Gunawan has said, the UNCLOS legal framework is not strong enough to stop Chinese and other foreign fishing boats from encroaching on his country's EEZ.

With more than 17,500 islands and numerous chokepoints, Indonesia is vulnerable to external attacks. The Indonesian Navy has adopted a defense-in-depth strategy to counter foreign intrusions in its EEZ and protect its maritime borders. In essence, the Indonesians send their coastguard ships and warships to face foreign vessels of the same type, in accordance with UNCLOS rules.

At the moment, Indonesia has deployed some naval units in the Natuna waters. It is also committed to building up an air and naval base at Besar, the main island in the Natuna Regency, or sub-province, and increasing the presence of local fishing boats to exercise sovereignty over the area.

However, the coronavirus pandemic has hit the country's economy hard, pushing the Jakarta government to trim military spending by $588 million this year -- the initial military budget for 2020 stood at $9.3 billion.

Like other Southeast Asian nations, Indonesia would prefer not to pick a side in the U.S.-China rivalry. The status quo has always been the first option for Jakarta and its neighbors, with the U.S. balancing China.

Unity and coordination among the 10 members of ASEAN on the South China Sea issue would certainly help deter China's assertiveness, but it is a long shot at the moment. This is the same for signing a binding code of conduct for activities in the strategic waterway between the Southeast Asian bloc and Beijing.

Against this backdrop, with the tit-for-tat competition between the two powers escalating, neutrality risks becoming unsustainable for regional actors at odds with the Chinese.

The Indonesian government should recognize the harsh reality and act accordingly. The idea of expanding military ties with the U.S. finds support from some in the Indonesian military's senior ranks. They say their country has been cooperating militarily with Washington for more than 40 years, focusing on joint exercises and drills, but believe such a cooperation needs to be taken to a higher level, similar to an alliance, to make sure China will not dictate its policy in the region.

The upgraded relationship could be modeled after the U.S.-Singapore military pact, which grants U.S. forces access to the Singapore's naval and air bases, including the deployment on a rotational basis of spy planes and littoral combat ships.

The Indonesian Navy could coordinate its defense-in-depth approach with U.S. freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea, and the U.S. Navy could contribute to patrolling the sprawling Indonesian archipelago.

In this way, Indonesia would flesh out its defenses against the Chinese, while the U.S. would gain an active partner in its efforts to contain China within the China seas and the Strait of Taiwan -- an American version of Beijing's anti-access, area denial strategy.

Falling short of a full alliance with Washington, Singapore has kept enough elasticity to maintain close links with China. Indonesia's enhanced defense relationship with the U.S. should be established on the same assumption.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Ind...de-US-alliance-to-fend-off-Chinese-aggression

Should we?

I mean, are people going to swallow their pride and admit we need help?

 

[Chestnut]

looks like the dsme 209 still a go
View attachment 661183

Time to say goodbye to u214, scopene, reiss class, and 70s second submarine?

I wouldn't really lay the blame on DSME and PAL for the problems faced with the initial batch. The Koreans KNOW how to build submarines, it's just that the government wasn't ready to pay the full cost.

MenHan and the Navy pretty much told both shipyards to cut corners during production and they ended up with the consequences of said corner cutting. Now they are scapegoating the two shipyards since the government doesn't want to lose face.

Personally, I just hope the government learns from this. Sorry to say but we really do need sub hulls right now more so then quality of hulls. If the Navy wants better subs, then it is MenHan job to fulfill the first 2 batches and open up talks for the subsequent 3rd batch of subs. At least this time they have more options on the market when it comes to subs.

Naval Group is HELL BENT on getting an order from MenHan ever since signing that LOI with PAL in 2017, and they would obviously be offering the Scorpene. DSME has been touting the DSME 2000 (Based on technologies from the K-VLS equipped Dosan Ahn Changho-class submarines and the Type 216) for a year now and it wouldn't be hard to re-tool the current submarine facilities to build those. Turkey and Germany would be offering the 216, same as they do every year. And who knows maybe Sweden would want to join in.

Again, it all depends if MenHan is smart enough to take advantage of its position. Competition is good for business.