Indonesia Defence Forum

[Gundala]

Everyone who says there's a place for more Flankers in our defense doctrine needs to read more.

The fact of the matter is with the upcoming Link-16 integration, K-FX, national NATO optimized BMS, possible F-35 purchase, and upcoming AWACS/MPA purchase they'd just literally be nothing more than show pieces that are only flown on the October parade. Flankers are just a drain and the money should honestly be spent on more F-16's and hell even procuring either ex-USAF F-15E's or Shornets to replace the Su-30's.

I fully advocate any plan that replaces the Su-30's, bonus points if they pick Shornets since it would allow greater interoperability with Australia and Boeing would likely cut us a good deal if we buy them on top of the E-7, KC-46, P-8's, and the next Apache purchase. Hell I am optimistic enough to say Boeing would likely allow limited ToT considering they offered it to India for their MRCA program

Maybe sell them to Malaysia, they likely need the spare parts at this point.


Because neither Russia, China, or the US would allow any of their products to datalink to anything other than their own stuff.

Arms purchasing is just as much politics as it is defense.

I dont see us getting Shornets as it is about the same role/size as fx. Imho AU still putting their fighters as Heavy-sukhoi, med-fx, light-viper. Pretty much like US with their F15, hornet, f16. F35 was intended to replace them all as we all know so far the result is they are still trying to keep the F15. They think the heavy payload and range still have to take into account

timur rusuh lagi gengs udah ditunggangi demo-demo kemarin RIP to the fallen,
demo ngibarin bintang kejora dimukak istana, mabes tni, sabar banget pemerintah

Turut berduka... Ya emang harus sabar sekarang, apa lg di era sosmed kyk skrg. Soal bintang kejora ada satu perbincangan dgn kawan yg bikin kaget, ga bisa dibuka semua disini. Salah satunya harus ada penetrasi pendidikan termasuk pelatihan guru atau guru baru. Sulit memang karena medan yg berat & kadang ga ada jalan. Tp harus dilakukan sambil buka jalan ke daerah2 yg masih terisolir seperti nduga dan sekitarnya.

 

[HellFireIndo]

Oh I don't mind us 'leaning' more toward certain nation / supplier.. My problem or worry is if we end up 'relying' or 'depending' too much or even 100% dependent on that 'certain' nation / supplier... How the heck could we be/act independent then?? Anytime we have differences or go against their wishes, we will risk our only source, supply and support of weapons..

Having more options on hand means redundancy and leverage for us.. Aren't you worried about a possible repeat of the east timor debacle? Maybe this time in Papua..

That is why we pursue ToT schemes from every arms purchase we made, so that eventually we could master the core technology to made the spare parts ourselves (and even the weapons itself). Indeed it made purchases' deals more difficult, but it is the right path to choose as if we really want to be a proper strong country, no doubt that being self-reliant is a must.

It is simply a fact that we are more "western-leaning" ever since the Independence (or even way before), and that today western weapon systems are more "reliable" in general, with a design philosophy that suits our taste. Getting two radically different weapon system from two different supplier will burden our BMS, it is a fact. It will make logistics more difficult in practice, compared if we choose just either western or eastern weapon, and proceed to master the technology and the design as much as possible.

Warfare also involves diplomacy, having expensive weapon that only hinders your military's efficiency that were only there to act as a (mediocre) "failsafe" option, means that you do diplomacy wrong, and also failed to properly build your defense industry to sustain their operation.

 

[initial_d]

kalau lagi rame kaya gini dipapua, harusnya "dibuat" suku suku disana perang ma sesamanya terutama yg dipegunungan dan jangan ditengahi biar beralih perhatian mereka, toh mereka lebih kesukuan daripada bela ras malanesia, opm atau apapun

OPM afraids face to face against the greatest militias on earth Banser NU

sebenernya elu siapa si!!?? dari pertama elu main di pakdef pakai nama yg menghina sesama member ID apalagi yg senior dan cukup kontributif gw sudah ga suka ma elu, trus giliran posting elu malah jadi provokator, suka pa ngga Banser tuh sudah jauh berjasa ke NKRI dr pada ormas yg pakai jubah putih dan suka gradak gruduk, kalau elu ga bisa jaga omongan, mending ga usah posting aja

 

[barjo]

kalau lagi rame kaya gini dipapua, harusnya "dibuat" suku suku disana perang ma sesamanya terutama yg dipegunungan dan jangan ditengahi biar beralih perhatian mereka, toh mereka lebih kesukuan daripada bela ras malanesia, opm atau apapun


sebenernya elu siapa si!!?? dari pertama elu main di pakdef pakai nama yg menghina sesama member ID apalagi yg senior dan cukup kontributif gw sudah ga suka ma elu, trus giliran posting elu malah jadi provokator, suka pa ngga Banser tuh sudah jauh berjasa ke NKRI dr pada ormas yg pakai jubah putih dan suka gradak gruduk, kalau elu ga bisa jaga omongan, mending ga usah posting aja

Dia bukan anak indonesia bro...

Doi aktipnye di trit BD

 

[HellFireIndo]

kalau lagi rame kaya gini dipapua, harusnya "dibuat" suku suku disana perang ma sesamanya terutama yg dipegunungan dan jangan ditengahi biar beralih perhatian mereka, toh mereka lebih kesukuan daripada bela ras malanesia, opm atau apapun

Agak terlalu "Kolonialis" menurutku, lebih baik menggunakan cara yang fair saja daripada cara yang pragmatik brutal begitu. Justru suku-suku yang pada perang satu sama lain itu mudah dihasut (karena mereka juga perang karena sumbu pendek dan mudah kena hasutan), mayoritas milisi pendukung OPM ya kaum2 gunung yang kolot itu, membuat mereka lebih melestarikan pemikiran tribalis dan teritorialis begitu malah cenderung akan membuat mereka lebih ganas lagi terhadap pemerintah dan penduduk2 di pesisir yang lebih terintegrasi.

 

[initial_d]

Dia bukan anak indonesia bro...
View attachment 576499

Doi aktipnye di trit BD

entah bro, tapi user namenya kenapa ngehina madokafc dan suka trolling trit indo mungkin dia butthurt buangan dr formil atau pernah di damprat ma sis mado

 

[barjo]

entah bro, tapi user namenya kenapa ngehina madokafc dan suka trolling trit indo mungkin dia butthurt buangan dr formil atau pernah di damprat ma sis mado

Biasa tu kesel bgt kena damprat sis mado klo pas BD member da masalah ma kita, kebenulan jg ketema ma anak2 VCong, tu yg pakai id partai tu bkn anak malay jga, trit dia tu plek sama waktu n topiknya ma salah satu member VCong. Treking ja ip nya

 

[Chestnut]

Is all of that true, in planning..? or just a bunch of hopes and wishlist...? Really Link-16s, NATO BMS, F-35s..? Hard to believe really, way too good to be true... Quick fact, we are not their allies, and we will never be allies with them, or with any other nation for that matter.. unless we change our constitution first... So why would they trust us enough to share all of that..? it's not like we will ever come and fight for them..

We participated in the design of KFX, but even then we didn't specify Link-16.. only some vague reference to a Indonesian military link that is separate from the Korean K-Link...

"Arms purchasing is just as much politics as it is defense" - So true, and this is what's confusing me... Isn't our basic foreign policy tenet "Bebas Aktif", so why are we attaching ourselves to US / NATO hardware standard as if we are allies with them...? Are we planning on abandoning "Bebas Aktif" for some western alliance in the future...?

There's no such thing as us not being allied with anyone.

We have and always will be under the US sphere of influence.

And you can read back a few pages about the Link-16 and F-35 bit. The BMS we use is an indirect copy of the US BLU4 tracker (pretty shitty system but it works), and uses INS and GPS instead of GLANOSS or BeiDou for geo locating.

We ca

Oh I don't mind us 'leaning' more toward certain nation / supplier.. My problem or worry is if we end up 'relying' or 'depending' too much or even 100% dependent on that 'certain' nation / supplier... How the heck could we be/act independent then?? Anytime we have differences or go against their wishes, we will risk our only source, supply and support of weapons..

Having more options on hand means redundancy and leverage for us.. Aren't you worried about a possible repeat of the east timor debacle? Maybe this time in Papua..

we can't, there's no such thing as an "independent nation" anymore. In today's realm of geopolitics, everybody answers to somebody. Even neutral nations like Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland are still under the NATO sphere of influence.

I dont see us getting Shornets as it is about the same role/size as fx. Imho AU still putting their fighters as Heavy-sukhoi, med-fx, light-viper. Pretty much like US with their F15, hornet, f16. F35 was intended to replace them all as we all know so far the result is they are still trying to keep the F15. They think the heavy payload and range still have to take into account

The KFX is meant to replace the F-16's.

What we need is something to replace the Flankers, as of now they're pretty much just over-hyped bomb trucks that can't even carry PGM's because our network infrastructure is NATO based and are a constant maintenance hog. The only reason I'm vouching for SHornets is because they are stupidly capable for their price, along with the fact that the next 4 big arms purchases are more than likely going to go to Boeing (Wedgetail, KC-46, P-8, more Apaches) which means you can get them for stupid cheap because Boeing's business policy is doing bulk buys.

 

[trishna_amṛta]

Turut berduka... Ya emang harus sabar sekarang, apa lg di era sosmed kyk skrg. Soal bintang kejora ada satu perbincangan dgn kawan yg bikin kaget, ga bisa dibuka semua disini. Salah satunya harus ada penetrasi pendidikan termasuk pelatihan guru atau guru baru. Sulit memang karena medan yg berat & kadang ga ada jalan. Tp harus dilakukan sambil buka jalan ke daerah2 yg masih terisolir seperti nduga dan sekitarnya.

IMHO Solusi paling tepat kalau utk jangka panjang sebenarnya adalah membangun infrastruktur (jalan, listrik, dsb). Cuma hal tsb butuh waktu lama tapi dampaknya narasi politik mereka jadi ga relevant. Tampaknya mereka sekarang mulai desperate karna pembangunan2x infrastruktur tsb karna lama kelamaan narasi politik mereka terancam ga laku.

Sedangkan kalau trkit pendidikan, saya kok malah lebih khawatir dgn kualitas kurikulum pendidikan kita . Saya kebetulan generasi jaman OrBa dan lihat kurikulum penidikan dulu ama sekarang khususnya yg terkait Kebangsaan, Persatuan, Toleransi, dsb malah jauh lebih baik jaman OrBa dulu, Bahkan contoh eekstrim saya kaget banget saat tau adik saya yg paling kecil cerita apa yg diajarkan oleh gurunya, dan ternyata HOAX yg berbau SARA. Kalau sekarang kurikulum & tenaga pendidikan kita seperti itu malah makin kacau nantinya.

Agak terlalu "Kolonialis" menurutku, lebih baik menggunakan cara yang fair saja daripada cara yang pragmatik brutal begitu. Justru suku-suku yang pada perang satu sama lain itu mudah dihasut (karena mereka juga perang karena sumbu pendek dan mudah kena hasutan), mayoritas milisi pendukung OPM ya kaum2 gunung yang kolot itu, membuat mereka lebih melestarikan pemikiran tribalis dan teritorialis begitu malah cenderung akan membuat mereka lebih ganas lagi terhadap pemerintah dan penduduk2 di pesisir yang lebih terintegrasi.

Nach betul itu boss . Kalau kita ngulangin cara2x nya Tuan Meneer bin Kompeni malah kita ngulangin sejarah cuma bedanya kita disisi yg berbeda (mereka bisa merdeka dan kita yg dihujat dunia internasional). Cuma sekarang khan problemnya (jangka pendek & menengah) bagaimana caranya reaching out anggota2x kelompok2x tsb jadi mereka kehabisan basis masanya.

Walaupun menurut saya sich kalau utk jangka pendeknya mendingan para pimpinan / kepala2x mereka perlu pakai cara2x OrBa tetapi kita rangkul di level grassroot nya

 

[barjo]

IMHO Solusi paling tepat kalau utk jangka panjang sebenarnya adalah membangun infrastruktur (jalan, listrik, dsb). Cuma hal tsb butuh waktu lama tapi dampaknya narasi politik mereka jadi ga relevant. Tampaknya mereka sekarang mulai desperate karna pembangunan2x infrastruktur tsb karna lama kelamaan narasi politik mereka terancam ga laku.

Sedangkan kalau trkit pendidikan, saya kok malah lebih khawatir dgn kualitas kurikulum pendidikan kita . Saya kebetulan generasi jaman OrBa dan lihat kurikulum penidikan dulu ama sekarang khususnya yg terkait Kebangsaan, Persatuan, Toleransi, dsb malah jauh lebih baik jaman OrBa dulu, Bahkan contoh eekstrim saya kaget banget saat tau adik saya yg paling kecil cerita apa yg diajarkan oleh gurunya, dan ternyata HOAX yg berbau SARA. Kalau sekarang kurikulum & tenaga pendidikan kita seperti itu malah makin kacau nantinya.



Nach betul itu boss . Kalau kita ngulangin cara2x nya Tuan Meneer bin Kompeni malah kita ngulangin sejarah cuma bedanya kita disisi yg berbeda (mereka bisa merdeka dan kita yg dihujat dunia internasional). Cuma sekarang khan problemnya (jangka pendek & menengah) bagaimana caranya reaching out anggota2x kelompok2x tsb jadi mereka kehabisan basis masanya.

Walaupun menurut saya sich kalau utk jangka pendeknya mendingan para pimpinan / kepala2x mereka perlu pakai cara2x OrBa tetapi kita rangkul di level grassroot nya

Kalau menyangkut masalah kurikulum kita harus hati2 bro masalah pendidikan kemarin fekaes sangat dominan terutama masalah revisi yg terbaru bau (maap militer yg berkoalisi dengan wacana fekaes) cukup kuat, kurikulum 2014 ini baru bisa direvisi lagi 10 tahun lagi, 2024 nanti

 

[trishna_amṛta]

There's no such thing as us not being allied with anyone.

We have and always will be under the US sphere of influence.

we can't, there's no such thing as an "independent nation" anymore. In today's realm of geopolitics, everybody answers to somebody. Even neutral nations like Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland are still under the NATO sphere of influence.

Totally agree, there is no such thing as Neutral these days.

The KFX is meant to replace the F-16's.

What we need is something to replace the Flankers, as of now they're pretty much just over-hyped bomb trucks that can't even carry PGM's because our network infrastructure is NATO based and are a constant maintenance hog. The only reason I'm vouching for SHornets is because they are stupidly capable for their price, along with the fact that the next 4 big arms purchases are more than likely going to go to Boeing (Wedgetail, KC-46, P-8, more Apaches) which means you can get them for stupid cheap because Boeing's business policy is doing bulk buys.

What... I thought I-FX were suppose to replace those Flanker's. Having those Flanker's around for the next few decade even after we have those I-FX going to be a serious logistical liability

Kalau menyangkut masalah kurikulum kita harus hati2 bro masalah pendidikan kemarin fekaes sangat dominan terutama masalah revisi yg terbaru bau (maap militer yg berkoalisi dengan wacana fekaes) cukup kuat, kurikulum 2014 ini baru bisa direvisi lagi 10 tahun lagi, 2024 nanti

Saya kalau udah comment urusan pendidikan bisa rada panjang, karna buat saya Nation Building harus dimulai dari pendidikan dulu. Kalau kurikulum belum bisa dirubah sampai thn 2024 berarti kita ada generasi mulai produk kurikulum dari thn 2009 sampai 2024 yg berarti 25 thn dimana generasi tsb ga bisa diajak critical thinking dan cenderung ber mental sektarian.

 

[Raduga]

Turut berduka... Ya emang harus sabar sekarang, apa lg di era sosmed kyk skrg. Soal bintang kejora ada satu perbincangan dgn kawan yg bikin kaget, ga bisa dibuka semua disini. Salah satunya harus ada penetrasi pendidikan termasuk pelatihan guru atau guru baru. Sulit memang karena medan yg berat & kadang ga ada jalan. Tp harus dilakukan sambil buka jalan ke daerah2 yg masih terisolir seperti nduga dan sekitarnya.

yeah i do heard about that rumour from my friends who also work in papua , there was a kids in "pelosok" remote area who ask about what was that red and white flag represent as ? , when one of the health departement worker answer them "its indonesia flag" , the kids showed the bintang kejora flag and said "no this is indonesia flag" .

 

[barjo]

Totally agree, there is no such thing as Neutral these days.




What... I thought I-FX were suppose to replace those Flanker's. Having those Flanker's around for the next few decade even after we have those I-FX going to be a serious logistical liability



Saya kalau udah comment urusan pendidikan bisa rada panjang, karna buat saya Nation Building harus dimulai dari pendidikan dulu. Kalau kurikulum belum bisa dirubah sampai thn 2024 berarti kita ada generasi mulai produk kurikulum dari thn 2009 sampai 2024 yg berarti 25 thn dimana generasi tsb ga bisa diajak critical thinking dan cenderung ber mental sektarian.

Yes, its war of movement, idiology itu klendesten pak... nga bisa semuannya dihadapi dengan bedil, ingatan itu membentuk sikap generasi

 

[Nike]

Ada yg pake FN SCAR

 

[Gundala]

The KFX is meant to replace the F-16's.

What we need is something to replace the Flankers, as of now they're pretty much just over-hyped bomb trucks that can't even carry PGM's because our network infrastructure is NATO based and are a constant maintenance hog. The only reason I'm vouching for SHornets is because they are stupidly capable for their price, along with the fact that the next 4 big arms purchases are more than likely going to go to Boeing (Wedgetail, KC-46, P-8, more Apaches) which means you can get them for stupid cheap because Boeing's business policy is doing bulk buys.

There is no other alternative for flankers other than F15. Shornet is tanggung, might as well add more KFX which prolly cost about the same as F15 for the first few batches First we need to get that KC46 so AU has more options for their operational coverage and future acquisition options. For now they just dont have much option to replace flankers with our lack of air refueling capability.

KFX to replace F16? Then why we need to get New Viper then? Might as well looking for another air frame such as Gripen that using the same engine as future KFX. So whats our future air frame projection going to look like?