Indonesia Defence Forum

[Cromwell]

https://www.sspa.se/news/hydrodynamic-testing-new-dsme-1400-aip-class-submarine

Article on hydrodynamic testing on DSME 1400 Class / Changbogo Class with AIP cell model in Sweden and plan to insert AIP cell for DSME 1400

 

[mejikuhibiu]

Wait ? What exactly do you mean ? NASAMs ( Norwegian Advance Surface to Air Missile systems ) is ground point based air defence system not something installed around naval platform ?

I know nasams is ground point based sam..maybe that is possible to do that..or navy can use other sam.. the point is can kcr do that..

 

[Cromwell]

I know nasams is ground point based sam..maybe that is possible to do that..or navy can use other sam.. the point is can kcr do that..

Not possible. The KCR-60 platform is too small for that purpose unless limited range & smaller SHORAD system such as article i shared previously on Marlin WS 30mm & Mistral besides the whole purpose of KCR is for hit & run mission. You hit the larger enemy vessel with AshM missiles then speed up not to defend itself againts counterfire attacks.

 

[HellFireIndo]

View attachment 569266 https://www.sspa.se/news/hydrodynamic-testing-new-dsme-1400-aip-class-submarine

Article on hydrodynamic testing on DSME 1400 Class / Changbogo Class with AIP cell model in Sweden and plan to insert AIP cell for DSME 1400

Great for future improvement. Honestly if we have to choose one country to cooperate in defense industry, i will support South Korea for that, we already have a decent history of cooperation with them, and the fact that they have almost everything that we are planning to have, not to mention that they were also have been in similar situation as ours', seeking ToTs and such, our learning curve won't be much different from them.

That's also mean i won't really endorse the idea of getting things from South Africa, we barely have anything to do with them and that our purchases of their products is negligible, choosing South Africa is not really worth it, if the only reason is just because they made some knock-off Israeli missile systems, calling the Israelis directly will make more sense tbh.

the Soviet Navy surface combatant biggest and latent arsenal is actually a big cruiser and they are several times more heavier than US destroyer or Cruiser.

Actually we need those fancy and big destroyer in rather large number to made a balance against our potential adversary at high seas and deter them. Gunboat diplomacy will be more meaningful and had effect using those fancy destroyer instead of those cretin Kapal tidak Cepat tanpa Rudal

I agree that big fleets suits Indonesia's need, but not necessarily in a way that copies the US or even Russian/Soviet, i think Japanese and South Korean model would work better IMO. There's some infographics that said MEF 3 have quota for 4 Destroyers and 4 LHD, of course i have no capacity to confirms that, but that sounds reasonable for me, not to mention Iver's building principle that cut the cost of the ship up to below 400 million USD per ship, and i'm sure that the Danish wouldn't have a problem with us getting a lot from Iver's deal, as they mostly builds civilian ships and not that interested in export military vessels, unlike the French, Dutch or even the Swedes.

There's a more shady info about "26 frigates", that's quite a big figure and probably points to Parchim, Van Speijk and Fatahillah's replacement, this has always concerns me as the current situation imply that it have to a locally made/built as purely foreign purchases would cost a lot of time and money, we need to be able to build 1000 - 4000 tonne corvettes/frigates ASAP.

Our Naval capability need to be able to support Gunboat Diplomacy, but more in a way of naval supremacy (in the region), blockading the enemy's coastal strong points and providing naval fires to supports the Marine's landing.

 

[Cromwell]

Great for future improvement. Honestly if we have to choose one country to cooperate in defense industry, i will support South Korea for that, we already have a decent history of cooperation with them, and the fact that they have almost everything that we are planning to have, not to mention that they were also have been in similar situation as ours', seeking ToTs and such, our learning curve won't be much different from them.

That's also mean i won't really endorse the idea of getting things from South Africa, we barely have anything to do with them and that our purchases of their products is negligible, choosing South Africa is not really worth it, if the only reason is just because they made some knock-off Israeli missile systems, calling the Israelis directly will make more sense tbh.


I agree that big fleets suits Indonesia's need, but not necessarily in a way that copies the US or even Russian/Soviet, i think Japanese and South Korean model would work better IMO. There's some infographics that said MEF 3 have quota for 4 Destroyers and 4 LHD, of course i have no capacity to confirms that, but that sounds reasonable for me, not to mention Iver's building principle that cut the cost of the ship up to below 400 million USD per ship, and i'm sure that the Danish wouldn't have a problem with us getting a lot from Iver's deal, as they mostly builds civilian ships and not that interested in export military vessels, unlike the French, Dutch or even the Swedes.

There's a more shady info about "26 frigates", that's quite a big figure and probably points to Parchim, Van Speijk and Fatahillah's replacement, this has always concerns me as the current situation imply that it have to a locally made/built as purely foreign purchases would cost a lot of time and money, we need to be able to build 1000 - 4000 tonne corvettes/frigates ASAP.

Our Naval capability need to be able to support Gunboat Diplomacy, but more in a way of naval supremacy (in the region), blockading the enemy's coastal strong points and providing naval fires to supports the Marine's landing.

Well back around 15 years ago there was a project " Korvet Nasional " a collaboration between PT.PAL & Fincantierri to build 80m Corvette based on Commandanti Class OPV but then idk about the continuation & i suppose the programme is death, idk.
Meanwhile;
Infographic on Iver Huitfeldt Class

 

[Gundala]

Usually the submarine tactics is more effective. Seat still dont move and let them come inside the weapons parameter, hit them hard then run to the island clutter

I do like submarine tactics, tho I would love to see some russian VLS type sub in our arsenal. Those russ sub arsenals surely look promising to detter. But regardless how good sub is, it still need aerial coverage. That brings us to iver as one of aerial cover options.

Actually we need those fancy and big destroyer in rather large number to made a balance against our potential adversary at high seas and deter them. Gunboat diplomacy will be more meaningful and had effect using those fancy destroyer instead of those cretin Kapal tidak Cepat tanpa Rudal

Agree with destroyers, tho with current and last 10 years economic conditions I doubt we would have them anytime soon (I estimate at 2030 is the soonest we can afford it). The hold on additional Sigma purchase and the aim of Iver is a smart move. Couple of Iver and Battle ready corvets class, MRLF, subs, Parchim can make a decent size Naval battle group. I hate FFBNW, this make planning and combat readyness a headache. We shoulda aim to build 1 decent naval battle group that can be send to at least 1 hot spot. As for now I dont see it happening anytime soon. Getting our main designate naval group forces battle ready should be #1 priority. Iver purchased (if its ever happened) provide AAW for our navy group, this area I consider need to improve to have decent naval task/battle group force.

Oh btw KCR 60? The only thing I love about it is "Made in Indonesia"

 

[Raduga]

i wonder what's this mini submarine purpose for ?

 

[Cromwell]

I do like submarine tactics, tho I would love to see some russian VLS type sub in our arsenal. Those russ sub arsenals surely look promising to detter. But regardless how good sub is, it still need aerial coverage. That brings us to iver as one of aerial cover options.



Agree with destroyers, tho with current and last 10 years economic conditions I doubt we would have them anytime soon (I estimate at 2030 is the soonest we can afford it). The hold on additional Sigma purchase and the aim of Iver is a smart move. Couple of Iver and Battle ready corvets class, MRLF, subs, Parchim can make a decent size Naval battle group. I hate FFBNW, this make planning and combat readyness a headache. We shoulda aim to build 1 decent naval battle group that can be send to at least 1 hot spot. As for now I dont see it happening anytime soon. Getting our main designate naval group forces battle ready should be #1 priority. Iver purchased (if its ever happened) provide AAW for our navy group, this area I consider need to improve to have decent naval task/battle group force.

Oh btw KCR 60? The only thing I love about it is "Made in Indonesia"

Credit to Fb page World Defense Zone
Well i suppose any ideas on acquisition of Russian subs are death long ago. MoD rejected the plan since 2010 and the odd is small that our future submarine plan won't involve South Korea. We are pretty much attached with them already. Besides you should check & read about South Korean KSS-III with batch I to use 6 VLS or Saab A26 plan with revolver VLS for tomahawk missiles.

 

[Raduga]

View attachment 569274
Well back around 15 years ago there was a project " Korvet Nasional " a collaboration between PT.PAL & Fincantierri to build 80m Corvette based on Commandanti Class OPV but then idk about the continuation & i suppose the programme is death, idk.
Meanwhile;
Infographic on Iver Huitfeldt ClassView attachment 569275 View attachment 569277 View attachment 569278
View attachment 569274 View attachment 569275 View attachment 569277 View attachment 569278

that modular STANFLEX VLS thing we should prioritize on TOT , iver are too bulky / short for its wide hull eh ? maybe we can ask odense to "elongate" it a little bit to around maybe 140-160 metres long , just my two cents of opinion

 

[Cromwell]

that modular STANFLEX VLS thing we should prioritize on TOT , iver are too bulky / short for its wide hull eh ? maybe we can ask odense to "elongate" it a little bit to around maybe 140-160 metres long , just my two cents of opinion

Well Odense builds the ships on basis of modular designs, you can add or cut the modules but the original design is ok enough. Maybe you should also check official page of Damen Schelde on crossover section, where they create 131 - 139 crossover designs

 

[Nike]

View attachment 569274
Well back around 15 years ago there was a project " Korvet Nasional " a collaboration between PT.PAL & Fincantierri to build 80m Corvette based on Commandanti Class OPV but then idk about the continuation & i suppose the programme is death, idk.
Meanwhile;
Infographic on Iver Huitfeldt ClassView attachment 569275 View attachment 569277 View attachment 569278
View attachment 569274 View attachment 569275 View attachment 569277 View attachment 569278

Kornas eventually evolved into diponegoro class with the promised Local building on some blocks, but with the condition of PT PAL at the times is nighly impossible. Then come the Light frigates project, and came the Martadinata class with their sharing works. And if we compared , PT PAL and BPPT, and other shareholder within INHAN benefitted more with their South Korean counterparts instead of Damen. Thats made some people got irritated with the progress of our Transfer of tech and management times with Damen. South Korean bring more equal coorperation actually

 

[Raduga]

Kornas eventually evolved into diponegoro class with the promised Local building on some blocks, but with the condition of PT PAL at the times is nighly impossible. Then come the Light frigates project, and came the Martadinata class with their sharing works. And if we compared , PT PAL and BPPT, and other shareholder within INHAN benefitted more with their South Korean counterparts instead of Damen. Thats made some people got irritated with the progress of our Transfer of tech and management times with Damen. South Korean bring more equal coorperation actually

but last month south korea (specifically HHI) made Pinoy got disappointed with their false promise of their frigate specification

 

[HellFireIndo]

I do like submarine tactics, tho I would love to see some russian VLS type sub in our arsenal. Those russ sub arsenals surely look promising to detter. But regardless how good sub is, it still need aerial coverage. That brings us to iver as one of aerial cover options.



Agree with destroyers, tho with current and last 10 years economic conditions I doubt we would have them anytime soon (I estimate at 2030 is the soonest we can afford it). The hold on additional Sigma purchase and the aim of Iver is a smart move. Couple of Iver and Battle ready corvets class, MRLF, subs, Parchim can make a decent size Naval battle group. I hate FFBNW, this make planning and combat readyness a headache. We shoulda aim to build 1 decent naval battle group that can be send to at least 1 hot spot. As for now I dont see it happening anytime soon. Getting our main designate naval group forces battle ready should be #1 priority. Iver purchased (if its ever happened) provide AAW for our navy group, this area I consider need to improve to have decent naval task/battle group force.

Oh btw KCR 60? The only thing I love about it is "Made in Indonesia"

The new South Korean KSS-III Submarine have K-VLS onboard if you are into that thing, South Korea have complete set of KSS-I (Chang Bogo/ U209 1400 ton), KSS-II (U214) and KSS-III (local made with AIP+VLS). Mind you that South Korea got missile and VLS technology from Russia, just google the Hyunmoo missile if you wanna see it yourself. That is why i think Indonesia picking South Korea for it's submarine fleets' modernization is a good move, the rest depends on our will and budget.

KCR platform have some potential, don't just see it's small size or that it's not a corvette, but that if they did able to do their job well or not. Last time i heard about them is the deal to MBDA to provide missiles (Exocet) and Terma's CMS for newer KCRs, so i think we could expect more improvement to the KCR platform (at least it's no longer Chinese jeroan). I propose KCR equipped with some cheap 30mm CIWS in place of main gun (or 57mm multipurpose whatever), Simbad RC and 4xNSM (or Exocet), it's probably the best option available for KCR.

View attachment 569274
Well back around 15 years ago there was a project " Korvet Nasional " a collaboration between PT.PAL & Fincantierri to build 80m Corvette based on Commandanti Class OPV but then idk about the continuation & i suppose the programme is death, idk.
Meanwhile;
Infographic on Iver Huitfeldt ClassView attachment 569275 View attachment 569277 View attachment 569278
View attachment 569274 View attachment 569275 View attachment 569277 View attachment 569278

Replace the upper 76mm gun with 30mm CIWS, and the lower gun with bigger 127mm cannon, add TASS for better ASW capability, replace harpoon with NSM or any better western AShM, if possible keep the Mk41 and Mk56 as every other choices is simply out of question.

Also, revive the National Corvette program or at least get serious with the PKR/Frigate shit

but last month south korea (specifically HHI) made Pinoy got disappointed with their false promise of their frigate specification

We got LPD and Submarine deals from South Korea, we were not disappointed by them. The Pinoys asked more for less, that's why they got into such a problem.

 

[Raduga]

talking about iver , could our ship probably becomes like what proposed to royal navy ??

 

[Cromwell]

but last month south korea (specifically HHI) made Pinoy got disappointed with their false promise of their frigate specification

Sometimes i'm thinking myself maybe their project is already fishy from beginning but then Philippines itself has a habbit of making unrealistically small budget project with such a high expectation. I mean look at the 365 Millions US$ funding for 2 frigates yet they demand such high specs with all CAPTAS, VLS, etc and then recently the project which PT.DI hesitate to take, a proposal request to manufacture 6 NC-212i within 1 year completion, arms acquisition isn't like a vendor market, it takes time to get subsystems and engine from various suppliers and then build them into an aircraft so i suppose it's correct move by PT.DI to hesitate taking Philippines' order. 1 year for 6 NC-212i, we can't do what they request