India's Proposed Naval Fighter Jet Procurement Could Be Worth US$12 Billion

[Sloth 22]

oopss try again

Rafales come with CFT too , so I don't think this would be required.

 

[$@rJen]

politically speaking yes F-18 have more chances this time ....IF THE INDIAN NAVY HAS TO TAKE-UP BIGGER ROLE IN IOR & 'BEYOND'

Sir, Merican fighter Jets willl never have a chance in India except f35 for Navy ( maybe)
With Rafale already chosen by IAF who will have a good Number with Infra, Logistics and maintenance its much more practical for Navy to go for Rafale-M

 

[$@rJen]

but it is too costly, and our carriers can carry only 18 combat jets at a time ,we need a twin engined fighter with 70+ operational availability mig 29k operational availabilty is also very low, but it has buddy refueling capability which rafale lack

Rafale is not too costly. Compare the Life cycle, Weapons and training cost of MKI and Rafale ... its almost same.

bro f-35 is a wight elephant india will never buy f-35

Bro no way... See even F-16 was heavily criticized when it was in the development period. Same goes for F-35 it'll take time to mature. by the time IAC-2 comes F-35 will be the front runner. if India doesn't have AMCA or FGFA naval version Its going to be F-35

 

[SrNair]

Welcome Rafale-M ..... price seems the indicator for this (~$210+ million) ....

If US offers EMALS then the winner would be F- 35.

 

[Sloth 22]

If US offers EMALS then the winner would be F- 35.

Not so easy , powerful nuclear reactors too are needed to power the EMALS, and USA is not ready to give us that tech. And is not willing to have Russian Nuke reactors.

That's why you are not hearing any thing about EMALS now a days.

 

[HRK]

that is highly unlikely, although they will try their best to get some attention and portray as being a major player on the high seas...... but beyond malacca straits i don't see IN since they are highly contested waters for PLAN and USN, and they are and will remain in the league of their own..... plus thats china's backyard and it will have zero tolerance there for others.
IN will remain in IOR for the foreseeable future, since it enjoys a superiority as well as proximity to home as well....
This procurement will be for IAC, and since USN will have to collaborate on this with IN so that too increases the likelihood of hornet.

I won't debate further as it may lead the procurement thread to more of political analysis of IN (& off-course India as an State), therefore will only say few things

politically speaking yes F-18 have more chances this time ....IF THE INDIAN NAVY HAS TO TAKE-UP BIGGER ROLE IN IOR & 'BEYOND'

I will try to concise my post as mush as possible, first note I emphasis on two things

1- Politically Speaking
2- IOR & Beyond

Political Understanding to this procurement: This procurement is for NAVY & always keep in mind Navy is not just another branch of Modern day defence forces but its more of a political tool & represent the POLITICAL & STRATEGIC inspiration & approach of the STATE, now before to introduce any other factor plz recall the geographical location of India which is situated in b/w two of the world most import Sea lanes Malacca straits at the east & Bab-ul-Mandeb at the south west both of these are important for most of the world.

Now keep in mind 'INDIAN' ocean is already 'occupied' by World's only GLOBAL NAVAL POWER USA & there is no one to challenge her in this region so it does not require any alliance or alley in this region, but India's main inspiration & political interest lies in this region so the question is What strategy suits India most to fulfill her inspirations & to serve her interest in this region... ??

1- Cooperation with the already established Naval power in this region & beyond BUT REMAINING WITHIN HER CAPACITY
2- Disengagement & lone approach

Before to comment on first point I will like to comment on second point first.

In my opinion India will not fetch any benefit by this approach because of two reasons

1- India is not the only option available to USA in this region; Australia can fill the gap if left open by India
2- Naval forces fo different countries having interest in this region such China, Japan, Turkey, etc. who till now have kept their presence limited to the area around Bab-ul-Mandab will also increase their force structure & presence in this region this will under mine the chances of India to be recognized as NAVAL & REGIONAL power of this region

Now the first point, If India adopts the cooperation strategy then

1- As off now there is no Challenge to Indian Navy in this region cooperation will further strengthen this position
2- But just recall that I have already wrote above that USA does not need cooperation in this region but her need are for the REGION BEYOND THIS so the question is

What sort of cooperation USA required .... ??

IOR & Beyond:

We need to understand that IF CHINA IS THE THREAT INDIA THE IS OPPORTUNITY in many field specially in the geostrategic developments for 'allied nations', so USA neither would like to lose the opportunity nor would like to see the increase of the influence of China in FAR EAST & REGIONS around, what USA want in Far-East is to have as many countries PRESENT IN THAT REGION & CONTESTING AGAINST THE INFLUENCE OF CHINA as much possible, it does not mean USA want hot & active engagements but an Alternative Political & Military Block to share the burden of collective defence lead by her.

So few collective exercises with Japan or South Korea or with Australia, Vietnam & some deals in defence & economic sector will obviously not hurt India or her interests in fact these will provide much needed projection to India beyond South Asia & IOR.

Now the main question is if these are the OPPORTUNITIES which USA can make possible for India How India can payback ....??

Obviously USA will want economic & political returns & COMMON PLATFORMS be it fighter jets, Aircraft Carrier, Ships or any other defence article whos infrastructure already exist from Diego Garcia to Okinawa satisfy both needs for both the countries.

In the end I will remind you IT WAS JUST A POLITICAL ASSESSMENT

Sir, Merican fighter Jets willl never have a chance in India except f35 for Navy ( maybe)
With Rafale already chosen by IAF who will have a good Number with Infra, Logistics and maintenance its much more practical for Navy to go for Rafale-M

Agreed ... read below my quoted post

Welcome Rafale-M ..... price seems the indicator for this (~$210+ million) ....

 

[danger007]

Lolz another 20 year's drama .

For Navy not for Airforce.

 

[$@rJen]

1-their is nothing like that is completely invisible to radar, every country is upgrading their defense for network centric war (data collected from the sensors(radar) looking out for foe will be combined together to make a picture of the battle space i.e f-35 may be invisible for some radar bandwidth but it will be detected since an network centric air defense system consist of several radar's scanning in overlapping freq-badwidth

2-for f-35 to maintain minimum radar crossection it must not carry any external payload, that means it can now carry only 2 500pd bombs in its internal compartment reducing its payload capacity

3-f-35 uses turbofan engine , that means its service sealing is limited to 55000 ft( pls check the service sealing of 4th gen fighters) and the engine is seriously under powered, that means its rate of climb is very poor, and if intercepted by a capable sam or fighter it is a sitting duck

4- its wing are too short, its radius of turn is too large which makes it ineffective in a dogfight

5-cost of maintenance is too high, and very very maintenance intensive
6-its main role is ground attack but it does't have enough payload capacity for close air support ( A-10 waterhog best in the world)

of course.. and i'm not 100% betting on Stealth.

The problem with F-35 carrying just 2 missiles Internally is not due to space but Software Issues, Which can be rectified but it takes time.

Bro.. F-16 service ceiling is around 50k feet while MKIs 56k Feet..
there's no Fighter Jet that can out Run a SAM exist .. all you can do is out manure, use Flare or JAM it.

4. F-35 was actually not purely designed for Dog fight that's the Job of F-22 in USAF but in our case..
But Bro F-35's AoA is much higher than F-18 or 16. and has a more powerfull engine than those fighters

5. We don't know nothing about the costs of 5th gen maintanence yet.. but given the nature of the price tag it'll be higher but worth the price.

6. for CAS roles F-35 can carry loads externally Since already Enemies air will be cleared. but in our case we're not going to use it for the CAS..

Not so easy , powerful nuclear reactors too are needed to power the EMALS, and USA is not ready to give us that tech. And is not willing to have Russian Nuke reactors.

That's why you are not hearing any thing about EMALS now a days.

i think BARC is developing improved version of Rector used in Arihant. if that's a break through it can be used for the IAC-2!!

Lolz another 20 year's drama .

given your maturity level i dont think so you're born 20 years ago

 

[$@rJen]

lol, iam 23 years old not 20

Bro so sorry... That was not for you. it was for that Pakistani Dumb Joey thribiyani

 

[Immanuel]

of course.. and i'm not 100% betting on Stealth.

The problem with F-35 carrying just 2 missiles Internally is not due to space but Software Issues, Which can be rectified but it takes time.

Bro.. F-16 service ceiling is around 50k feet while MKIs 56k Feet..
there's no Fighter Jet that can out Run a SAM exist .. all you can do is out manure, use Flare or JAM it.

4. F-35 was actually not purely designed for Dog fight that's the Job of F-22 in USAF but in our case..
But Bro F-35's AoA is much higher than F-18 or 16.

5. We don't know nothing about the costs of 5th gen maintanence yet.. but given the nature of the price tag it'll be higher but worth the price.

6. for CAS roles F-35 can carry loads externally Since already Enemies air will be cleared. but in our case we're not going to use it for the CAS..



i think BARC is developing improved version of Rector used in Arihant. if that's a break through it can be used for the IAC-2!!



given your maturity level i dont think so you're born 20 years ago

The F-35's internal payload is much more than that, by FOC it will be carrying 6 A2A missiles internally, i.e 4 Aim-120D, 2 Aim-9x block 2, for air to ground weapons, it will be 4 A2A missiles with 2*2000 lbs bombs or 2*JSOW or 2*CBU-105 (80 potential targets destroyed using 2 such weapons or 2*4 Pack SDB

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/34dd00704c8e7193d76321070d7247c7

F-35 is also a potential candidate for the IN

 

[Sloth 22]

i think BARC is developing improved version of Rector used in Arihant. if that's a break through it can be used for the IAC-2

BARC is definitely working on systems, but they are specifically for SSBN and SSN and are in a class of ~150 MW.

Meanwhile for EMALS , US ACs would have 2 A1Bs , each with 300MW+ capability.

 

[$@rJen]

The F-35's internal payload is much more than that, by FOC it will be carrying 6 A2A missiles internally, i.e 4 Aim-120D, 2 Aim-9x block 2, for air to ground weapons, it will be 4 A2A missiles with 2*2000 lbs bombs or 2*JSOW or 2*CBU-105 (80 potential targets destroyed using 2 such weapons or 2*4 Pack SDB

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/34dd00704c8e7193d76321070d7247c7

F-35 is also a potential candidate for the IN

Yes.. that's what I'm saying... but as of now it's not able to carry everything due to software glitches but they're working on it. It'll take sometimes.

India must spend money on R&D we spend very little on developing next gen technology

lack of solid R&D base is the major reason behind the delay in our lca , solution to this problem is privatization of defense industry, their absolutely no real R&D happening in our edu-inst, another reason is that the right guy is not reaching the right place due to our exam based selection procedure.

regarding f-35, yes it has some high tech subsystems integrated on to the aircraft, hightech does't always means victory, the key word is optimization since f-35 is designed to serve USAF,Navy, Marines, the design param of the aircraft has been seriously compromised to accommodate the spec of all the 3 branches even tho several versions of the aircrafts are available, their is very little room available for optimizing the aircraft which was not the case with f-16, the aircraft seriously lag in many areas especially in combat performance in air, because the aircraft is sluggish and under powered , replacing the engine of f-35 is not as easy as we think the engine used in f-35 is custom build for the project especially the naval and the marine version

for every one hour in air it has to under go 35 hours of maintenance work to make it airworthy again

Sir i don't think its worth the cost except if their is full TOT for a limited no of aircrafts (which USA will not agree)

India is spending a good amount on R&D as per our standards but there is no proper output. We don't have enough technology. That's why we opted to get ToT or asked France to assist. And R&D is not going to yield us anything soon, it takes time but by the time IAF will be History. We need fighters for IAF and IN now.

I agree there are flows in F35 but like i said its still in dev stage.. f16 had the same problems.. F22 had the same problem... As time pass by issues will be cleared. We're not going to buy f35 now.. if IN goes for F35 that'll be for IAC2 which is decade away.

Hell no... you're wrongly informed.. if it has to go for 35hrs of maintenance after flying 1hr then the jet would have blown into pieces while it was flying from US to Israel. I think you're still with the old informations which were mostly rumours.

And No the engine is not under powered.

Even if we buy 1000 jets there will be no full ToT.

 

[Hephaestus]

If only the Russians had not stopped the Su-33 production lines. We could have always asked them to make an MKI variant of the Su-33.

It would have saved us so much trouble.

Wasn't it rejected in favor of Mig the 1st around?

I won't debate further as it may lead the procurement thread to more of political analysis of IN (& off-course India as an State), therefore will only say few things

I will try to concise my post as mush as possible, first note I emphasis on two things

1- Politically Speaking
2- IOR & Beyond

Political Understanding to this procurement: This procurement is for NAVY & always keep in mind Navy is not just another branch of Modern day defence forces but its more of a political tool & represent the POLITICAL & STRATEGIC inspiration & approach of the STATE, now before to introduce any other factor plz recall the geographical location of India which is situated in b/w two of the world most import Sea lanes Malacca straits at the east & Bab-ul-Mandeb at the south west both of these are important for most of the world.

Now keep in mind 'INDIAN' ocean is already 'occupied' by World's only GLOBAL NAVAL POWER USA & there is no one to challenge her in this region so it does not require any alliance or alley in this region, but India's main inspiration & political interest lies in this region so the question is What strategy suits India most to fulfill her inspirations & to serve her interest in this region... ??

1- Cooperation with the already established Naval power in this region & beyond BUT REMAINING WITHIN HER CAPACITY
2- Disengagement & lone approach

Before to comment on first point I will like to comment on second point first.

In my opinion India will not fetch any benefit by this approach because of two reasons

1- India is not the only option available to USA in this region; Australia can fill the gap if left open by India
2- Naval forces fo different countries having interest in this region such China, Japan, Turkey, etc. who till now have kept their presence limited to the area around Bab-ul-Mandab will also increase their force structure & presence in this region this will under mine the chances of India to be recognized as NAVAL & REGIONAL power of this region

Now the first point, If India adopts the cooperation strategy then

1- As off now there is no Challenge to Indian Navy in this region cooperation will further strengthen this position
2- But just recall that I have already wrote above that USA does not need cooperation in this region but her need are for the REGION BEYOND THIS so the question is

What sort of cooperation USA required .... ??

IOR & Beyond:

We need to understand that IF CHINA IS THE THREAT INDIA THE IS OPPORTUNITY in many field specially in the geostrategic developments for 'allied nations', so USA neither would like to lose the opportunity nor would like to see the increase of the influence of China in FAR EAST & REGIONS around, what USA want in Far-East is to have as many countries PRESENT IN THAT REGION & CONTESTING AGAINST THE INFLUENCE OF CHINA as much possible, it does not mean USA want hot & active engagements but an Alternative Political & Military Block to share the burden of collective defence lead by her.

So few collective exercises with Japan or South Korea or with Australia, Vietnam & some deals in defence & economic sector will obviously not hurt India or her interests in fact these will provide much needed projection to India beyond South Asia & IOR.

Now the main question is if these are the OPPORTUNITIES which USA can make possible for India How India can payback ....??

Obviously USA will want economic & political returns & COMMON PLATFORMS be it fighter jets, Aircraft Carrier, Ships or any other defence article whos infrastructure already exist from Diego Garcia to Okinawa satisfy both needs for both the countries.

In the end I will remind you IT WAS JUST A POLITICAL ASSESSMENT



Agreed ... read below my quoted post

Very well explained. Thank you!

 

[ashok321]

Modi is taking India to erstwhile USSR route which got disintegrated, because it got outspend by Reagan era.

China & Pakistan are employing clever mind games for India to bite the bait and spend more - Which 10th pass, reliance defense friendly Modi does. While the selfish US arms industry is hungry for Indian orders.

And this is while my motherland is crying when its farmers are committing suicides.

With 10th pass Modi at India's helm, one who hides his degree, is controlling India, the cost is ENORMOUS.

 

[$@rJen]

No I didn't say it will blow up I was referring to the maintenance cycle of the aircraft

I got that but 35 hrs is too much bro..... anyhow if it ever fly under Indian skies it's a decade away by them almost all the problems will be resolved. With PLAN courting 5th gen fighter for its carriers we can't left behind... if Russia and develop naval version of FGFA we can have them in IAC2 if not we'll have no other option for 5th gen Naval fighter.... but again having 3 different fighter for 3 carriers is going to be hard on IN too.. lets wait and see