India's porverty reduced from 269 million to 172 million : World Bank

[Dungeness]

I am talking about 123 nominal enough for a middle class equivalent. I did not specify which middle class level; lower, middle, or higher.

Even the govt is talking of PPP equivalents only as far as poverty figures are concerned. Next, you need to understand India is typically a cash economy and about most basic consumer services transactions are not billed and hence does not figure in the official calculations.

OK, fair enough. I thought you were talking about the poverty line.

 

[Shotgunner51]

OK, fair enough. I thought you were talking about the poverty line.

Journalisms are second hand information, might as well go direct to authoritative source, i.e. World Bank. Their research team on poverty offers first hand information, here is the link
PovcalNet
Check $1.90/day 2011 PPP, pick any reference year (2012 as latest now), submit, show all countries, and you got full set of data.

For India, results are as below:

Country; Poverty (%); Population (m)
India*; 18.66%; 1,236.69m
India-Rural; 21.79%, 845.51m
India-Urban; 11.88%; 391.18m​

 

[Dungeness]

Journalisms are second hand information, might as well go direct to authoritative source, i.e. World Bank. Their research team on poverty offers first hand information, here is the link
PovcalNet

Check $1.90/day 2011 PPP, use latest reference year (2012 as latest now), submit and see all countries. For India, results are as below:

Country; Poverty (%); Population (m)
India*; 18.66%; 1,236.69m
India-Rural; 21.79%, 845.51m
India-Urban; 11.88%; 391.18m​

For the same ground reality of Indian in 2012:

Indian Gov Planning Commission in 2013 reports: Rs 26.8 for rural, Rs 32.9 for urban: Poverty rate is 21.9%
Word Bank in 2015 reports: $1.9 PPP, Poverty Rate is 18.66%

So $1.9 PPP is actually less valuable than Rs 26.8, Rs 32.9 respectively. It is way off from what many Indian friends here thought $1.9=Rs123. The whole bohaha about the reduction on poverty rate is just a number games.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

So let me get this right. You have this ugly thing dangling in air going as most expensive estate in the world. Right below out of camera shot when you flag a taxi this is what you get pulling up?

Read this thread for more > Man as beast - India

 

[Dungeness]

So let me get this right. You have this ugly thing dangling in air going as most expensive estate in the world. Right below out of camera shot when you flag a taxi this is what you get pulling up?

Man as beast - India

Not to forget the 400 servants in that building just for the family of 4.

 

[DesiGuy]

India needs to control its population.Everything else will fall in place.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

So let me get this right. You have this ugly thing dangling in air going as most expensive estate in the world. Right below out of camera shot when you flag a taxi this is what you get pulling up?

Read this thread for more > Man as beast - India

Maybe. Much like many Mumbai skyscrapers, this was probably built on slum land, with the people given their own houses and jobs by law. Im not a fan the Mughal life he wants to live, but it's his own money. And he employees a boat load of people in that scrapper, some of who lived on the slum.

 

[rubyjackass]

Eradicating poverty alone isn't enough we have to change the "soch"(thinking) of the lower class. Like it or not they are themselves to blame for their fate. They have no aspirations to become self sufficient neither they send their children to school when education is free in government run primary schools(I know the quality of education there but something is better than nothing and I myself done basic schooling in those government primary school so not that bad as we lot used to think) all they want is 2Rs wala rice and 2Rs wala gehu. :sigh:

That is oversimplification, may be even downright callous. There are millions whose fate is not in their hands. Some came out and some are still in indentured labour. They have no idea what impact education can create in their lives. In some communities, for generations there is no culture of education. You are privileged to be educated in the way you are.

At least you knew there is something called government school and that studying there will cause improvement in life. Most illiterate make a rational cost-benefit analysis. Even if education costs nothing, they will lose an earning hand in their family. And they are correct, from the short sighted viewpoint they have.

For the same ground reality of Indian in 2012:

Indian Gov Planning Commission in 2013 reports: Rs 26.8 for rural, Rs 32.9 for urban: Poverty rate is 21.9%
Word Bank in 2015 reports: $1.9 PPP, Poverty Rate is 18.66%

So $1.9 PPP is actually less valuable than Rs 26.8, Rs 32.9 respectively. It is way off from what many Indian friends here thought $1.9=Rs123. The whole bohaha about the reduction on poverty rate is just a number games.

You guys don't understand. Sub-20% poverty rate is a huge achievement for India. The numbers may be a percentage point here and there. But the basic fact is that we pulled a 40% people out of poverty in 60 years without needing a cultural revolution. And half of that happened since 1991. Poor people also have it better now with food subsidies and scholarships.

I personally disagree with the poverty line estimate of GOI. We should probably have two lines, one for extreme poverty which should be the current poverty line and another for a decent living of a family with basics like affordable healthcare, nutrition and education. Still the current numbers are an achievement.

 

[ganesh623]

So let me get this right. You have this ugly thing dangling in air going as most expensive estate in the world. Right below out of camera shot when you flag a taxi this is what you get pulling up?

Read this thread for more > Man as beast - India

You have a very poor knowledge for a tta.

That building is in mumbai while taxi pullers are in kolkatta.

 

[Dungeness]

You guys don't understand. Sub-20% poverty rate is a huge achievement for India. The numbers may be a percentage point here and there. But the basic fact is that we pulled a 40% people out of poverty in 60 years without needing a cultural revolution. And half of that happened since 1991. Poor people also have it better now with food subsidies and scholarships.

I personally disagree with the poverty line estimate of GOI. We should probably have two lines, one for extreme poverty which should be the current poverty line and another for a decent living of a family with basics like affordable healthcare, nutrition and education. Still the current numbers are an achievement.

I am not disputing the progress India has made in lifting poor people out of poverty, which indeed is a great achievement worth cheering for. I am questioning following points:

1. OP and many Indian members mixed up PPP with nominal dollar, and believe India poverty line is Rs 123, which give a false impression that poor people actually doing pretty well, which is far from the truth. I am surprised that you guys don't know poverty line was based on PPP dollar in Indian, and don't have any idea how poor people live their lives.

2. OP's reason to call it poverty reduction, and many of Indian cheer for, is merely two different ways presenting the SAME reality for the same year. Cheering for an achievement on paper that did not really happen?

3. Is the poverty line of Rs 27 for rural, Rs 33 for urban really a poverty line or merely a survive line? How many of you have tried live on Rs 33 in a city for a day?

4. It comes to my mind, just how many of Indian members here are from the poorest segment of the Indian society?

5. I totally agree with you on the bold part. In China, the poverty line is set as such (currently $1 nominal), 58% of it should be used for food (500 g cereal, 500 g vegetable, 50 meat, per day), the remaining for clothing and other spending.

 

[CrazyRaju]

In India getting survey done properly will be very challenging. I saw it with my very own eyes on how difficult it is. I used accompany my dad to various villages during my summer vacations (these are the tasks usually given to teachers during the summer breaks to collect various data for Govt analysis) and here is how it goes.

• In India 70%+ live off the land
• It is very difficult to get the revenue from the farm unless you sell the produce. Lots of times farmers trade with commodity rather than currency. Like if a fruit vendor comes home they give them farm produce in exchange for fruit
• Most of the folks do not reveal actual income they make due to fear of loosing their benefits from Govt. Govt provides cheaper goods through their distribution systems and they classify this benefit based on the income level.
• Making these folks understand revenue vs savings is very hard. For a salaried employee you take home X at the beginning of the month after all your expenses for the month are done if have money left those or your savings. In the farming world the produce will be sitting at home carrying a value of 0 (in their minds), In case they sell the produce they invest part of the money back into the farm for the next cycle. They may buy stuff to run the family etc etc. After all this if they have money left they consider they are making money and they disclose this amount as their revenue/income from the farm.
• They mix all the expenses into the farm including building the home, running the home, farm machinery etc before showing any left over as their income.
• One thing that miss for capture is when things are done outside the currency realm: Like when folks work in the farm they are fed Food as part of the compensation, or given share in the produce etc.
• If the data collector is patient enough they try to explain the nuances of what they are doing. Even then these folks think the Big Brother will come down hard on them so they will not disclose anything.
• Also in India they consider it offensive to boast what you are making so they come with a ridiculously low number
• Last but the most important item will be the sincerity of the data collector. Lot of times they pull the numbers off their a** instead of going home to home sincerely collecting this data.
• Another a** holes that fudge these numbers to their benefit are politicians to get some mileage out of it.

 

[Dungeness]

In India getting survey done properly will be very challenging. I saw it with my very own eyes on how difficult it is. I used accompany my dad to various villages during my summer vacations (these are the tasks usually given to teachers during the summer breaks to collect various data for Govt analysis) and here is how it goes.

• In India 70%+ live off the land
• It is very difficult to get the revenue from the farm unless you sell the produce. Lots of times farmers trade with commodity rather than currency. Like if a fruit vendor comes home they give them farm produce in exchange for fruit
• Most of the folks do not reveal actual income they make due to fear of loosing their benefits from Govt. Govt provides cheaper goods through their distribution systems and they classify this benefit based on the income level.
• Making these folks understand revenue vs savings is very hard. For a salaried employee you take home X at the beginning of the month after all your expenses for the month are done if have money left those or your savings. In the farming world the produce will be sitting at home carrying a value of 0 (in their minds), In case they sell the produce they invest part of the money back into the farm for the next cycle. They may buy stuff to run the family etc etc. After all this if they have money left they consider they are making money and they disclose this amount as their revenue/income from the farm.
• They mix all the expenses into the farm including building the home, running the home, farm machinery etc before showing any left over as their income.
• One thing that miss for capture is when things are done outside the currency realm: Like when folks work in the farm they are fed Food as part of the compensation, or given share in the produce etc.
• If the data collector is patient enough they try to explain the nuances of what they are doing. Even then these folks think the Big Brother will come down hard on them so they will not disclose anything.
• Also in India they consider it offensive to boast what you are making so they come with a ridiculously low number
• Last but the most important item will be the sincerity of the data collector. Lot of times they pull the numbers off their a** instead of going home to home sincerely collecting this data.
• Another a** holes that fudge these numbers to their benefit are politicians to get some mileage out of it.

All valid points! But the same can't be said about the urban poors.

 

[CrazyRaju]

All valid points! But the same can't be said about the urban poors.

Urban would be even messy.

• as most of these people will be living in unofficial residences.
• most of these folks work on cash (domestic helps, labor, short term labor carrying goods from shops to home or to the shop etc.) that will be hard to trace and have a handle on.
• This unorganized world will all end up in a statistical curve fitting somewhere

 

[HariPrasad]

I think this further explains on what @Shotgunner51 has already posted. You people could do with a bit more googling.


Meaning URP, MRP, MMRP | The Indian Express
Meaning URP, MRP, MMRP
The World Bank’s new poverty rate estimate of 12.4% does not mean that Indians have suddenly become richer. In fact, it is how you collect data that determines the poverty rate. What are the methods in vogue?

The World Bank has this week released a report saying the proportion of people living in extreme poverty has fallen to single digits in 2015: 9.6 per cent, down from 12.8 per cent in 2012. This is a first since the Bank started compiling such data in 1990. The other main takeaway was the claim that India has been overestimating its poverty rate. Far from the 21.9 per cent (for 2011-12) calculated by the Suresh Tendulkar Committee, or the even higher 29.5 per cent pegged by the Rangarajan Committee, the World Bank’s estimate is just 12.4 per cent. But more than any real change in the condition of the poor, the differences in poverty rates for the same year only underlines the importance of the way in which data is collected.

It is important to understand that a poverty line is essentially a monetary value. The idea is to collect data on people’s consumption expenditure, and to ascertain how many people surveyed fall below that poverty line. In India, there were two main ways of collecting data: Uniform Reference Period (URP) and Mixed Reference Period (MRP). Up until 1993-94, the poverty line was based on URP data. This involved asking people about their consumption expenditure across a 30-day recall period. In other words, the information was based on the recall of consumption expenditure over the last month alone.


Since 1999-2000, however, data are being collected according to MRP. Under this method, data on five less-frequently used items are collected over a one-year period, while sticking to the 30-day recall for the rest of the items. The low-frequency items include expenditure on health, education, clothing, durables etc. Currently, all poverty line data are compiled using the MRP method. These include the most recent estimates by the Suresh Tendulkar and Rangarajan Committees.

The World Bank’s 12.4 per cent poverty rate estimate for 2011-12 does not mean that people have become richer overnight. Rather, the Bank has used a new method for collecting data, called the modified mixed reference period, or MMRP.

In this method, for some food items, instead of a 30-day recall, only a 7-day recall is collected. Also, for some low-frequency items, instead of a 30-day recall, a 1-year recall is collected. This is believed to provide a more accurate reflection of consumption expenditures.

When such data was collected, consumption expenditures for people in both urban and rural areas went up by 10 per cent to 12 per cent.

This happened essentially because people could better recall their food expenditure over a shorter, 7-day period than what they might have done over the longer 30-day period. The higher expenditures, combined with the high population density around the poverty line, essentially meant that the poverty rate for India (for 2011-12) came down sharply.

Interestingly, the MMRP method was first used in 2009-10, alongside MRP.

No poverty has reduced really. You can feel it anywhere. Even in some zopad patti, people has costly mobiles and vehicles.

 

[Dungeness]

Urban would be even messy.

• as most of these people will be living in unofficial residences.
• most of these folks work on cash (domestic helps, labor, short term labor carrying goods from shops to home or to the shop etc.) that will be hard to trace and have a handle on.
• This unorganized world will all end up in a statistical curve fitting somewhere

Just curious, how many percent of Indian labor force are working on these "informal sectors" where you do not get benefits but cash?