India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)

[Rajput_Pakistani]

140mm gun?
on 50 ton chassis?
Wouldn't that lift the tank 3 feet above ground, every time the gun will fire? How will the accuracy, stabilization will be handled while on the move firing?
What about ammo of 140mm?

I mean that is a real ambitious one from DRDO.

 

[Omega007]

The earlier Tank Ex offer had the problem that it was just an upgrade and such a considerable change obviously is costlier, than upgrading the T72s with some new systems. Not to mention that the Arjun MK1 turret had many things that were not on par with the requirements either, so not going for that proposal is understandable. But today we have the MK2 upgrades according to IA's requirements, we have the T90 chassis, which fulfills IA's need for all areas in and around India, again as IA requires, so is there a better chance for DRDO to stick it into IA's face today, than offering an Tank EX MK2?
FMBT is again a DRDO proposal, because IA can't use the Arjun MK2 in all areas, IA obviously is more bullish on the earlier, but as explained above, if DRDO would offer the upgraded Tank Ex now, especially to the government / MoD, IA will have trouble to reject it, if it actually is exactly what they need for a large production increase of at least half of the Arjun MK2.

But one thing you have been simply failing to realize is that no matter what you do,the weight of the tank is gonna increase with newer and heavier armor upgrades!!Even with an autoloader in place,you can not bind the weight of an MBT under 50 tons.............unless of course you decide to go for unmanned turrets with two men crew!!Just look at the other nations , be it the Ruskies,Ukrainians,Chinese,South Koreans,Frenchis.................every one of them are designing tanks that are 55+ tons;even with autoloaders of different designs!!Just accept it - if you want to protect the crew members' lives and the tank itself from ever evolving anti tank threats that would liter any future battle ground,you have to equip your tanks with heavy armors.Then you also have to cater for post penetration crew safety which adds more weight!!There is no two way around it until and unless there has been some radically different and revolutionary discoveries are made in the field of material sciences!!

So this notion that a below 50 ton FMBT for the mountain areas is flawed in itself.Although one thing that could be done is to develop either a family of vehicles for different sectors and fields,sharing the same hull design or the MBT has to be developed like the Japanese Type 10 MBT,where you develop different types and weights of add on armors as per your terrain condition and ever changing threat perceptions.

140mm gun?
on 50 ton chassis?
Wouldn't that lift the tank 3 feet above ground, every time the gun will fire? How will the accuracy, stabilization will be handled while on the move firing?
What about ammo of 140mm?

I mean that is a real ambitious one from DRDO.

Well, it's just a rumor of a supposedly early concept by DRDO,nothing concrete on the ground!!And as far as stabilization of the main gun is concerned,then do read about the Soviet Obyekt 195 experimental MBT prototype.It had a 152mm high velocity gun mated to a below 50 ton body!!No problem with stabilization or accuracy was observed!!

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Is that cleared, any source? Wouldn't that mean that they selected one design and moved away from the FICV competition, since the tender included available foreign design, licence produced by an Indain partner.

Nothing official, I got it from a TATA pdf they released with the Kestrel showoff.

They plan to participate in a program to be lead integrators of a MBT by 2020, which is basically the FMBT program.

The original pdf is gone, but that was a part of it.

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[Echo_419]

Al Khalid-2 is there..will come online in coming years (as of now, forces are getting upgraded Al Khalid which is called Al Khalid-1, which is almost as good as your Arjun-II in firepower and mobility, with very good armor as well)...

But I'd love to see Pakistan's own FMBT program, as all major nations are coming up with it...

Probably Turkey's Altay will help Pakistan in some regards...

Ya sure why not

 

[A$HU]

Is smoothbore gun such an advanced technology that India isn't capable of producing?

 

[Omega007]

Is smoothbore gun such an advanced technology that India isn't capable of producing?

Who told you that India can not produce Smooth barrel guns,bro??!!In fact,the OFB has been producing 125mm 2A46M smooth barrel guns for license built T 72M1 'monkey models' since decades.Actually,a smooth barrel gun is much easier and simpler and also a lot quicker to forge compared to rifled ones.

 

[A$HU]

Who told you that India can not produce Smooth barrel guns,bro??!!In fact,the OFB has been producing 125mm 2A46M smooth barrel guns for license built T 72M1 'monkey models' since decades.Actually,a smooth barrel gun is much easier and simpler and also a lot quicker to forge compared to rifled ones.

Thanks for replying.Then why does Arjun and FMBT have rifled gun?Is it better?

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Is smoothbore gun such an advanced technology that India isn't capable of producing?

India's T90s are using homemade smoothbore guns.

The T-90S’s domestic production at HVF after all has been a difficult process with the Russian OEM refusing to transfer technology for vital assemblies such as the gun system (including the barrel) and turret armour plates. For the first 175 T-90s produced at Avadi, the gun system had to be imported off the shelf from Russia. However starting 2012, an indigenous 125 mm smooth bore gun developed by DRDO with a ‘modified chemistry barrel’ of the existing T-72 gun has gone into production having completed trials in 2010.This modified chemistry barrel has also successfully completed a life cycle test conducted at Armoured Corps Centre & School Ahmednagar. The last two years have also seen the indigenization of the T-90S’s commander hatch control unit, indigenous production of 50 types of critical optical components of the T-90Sand indigenously developed cable harnesses for the same. Overall the latest batches of T-90Ss will be between 80-90 percent indigenous by value. At the moment HVF is racing to fulfil the old indent of 300 tanks (of which 80 percent may have been delivered) and is looking to commence production for some 236 more tanks as per the December 2013 indent given to it by the IA. Overall the number of T-90Ss in the IA’s inventory today is just over 900 units.

 

[Omega007]

Thanks for replying.Then why does Arjun and FMBT have rifled gun?Is it better?

Nah,it's quite the opposite actually!!When it comes to the APFSDS and HEAT rounds,the smooth barrel beats the rifled ones hands down.
As for why does Arjun sport a rifled gun,only Indian Army could answer that with absolute certainity,since they were the ones who asked for it in their GSQR (short for General Stuff Qualitative Requirements).But as far as I can guess,the Army asked for it due to their requirements of firing HESH (short for High Explosive Squash Head) rounds which can not be fired through a smooth barrel gun.But then again,HESH had for long gone obsolete even before they formed their GSQR itself!!So it didn't really make much of a sense if you ask me.But anyway,it was how the Army wanted it,so can't comment more on that.

As for FMBT,it doesn't have a rifled gun,in fact it doesn't have anything since as of yet,the FMBT doesn't exist even on paper!!But one thing is for sure - that it won't be fitted with a rifled gun,never.

India's T90s are using homemade smoothbore guns.

Yeah,and an older and inferior one compared to the 2A46M2 which the original Russian supplied T 90S came equipped with!!

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I guess A5 onwards you mean,due to the distinctive 'wedge' shaped add on armor on the turret front

Yes, actually. You are correct. It does have a very typical post German(/Turk) feel to it - quite unlike the Arjun, T 90 chassis/hull combos we are used to.

 

[Didact]

Ask the Army bro!!The Tank Ex with a 120mm smooth barrel gun would have been (actually still is) the ideal upgrade for the 2000+ numbers of T 72M1 'monkey models' to turn into modern day 3rd generation MBTs.That's actually a good thing DRDO came up with on its own initiative,but like many other project,it was killed in its inception.Really man,after seeing the recent CAG report,I have lost respect for the IA top brass.

It was probably one of the very few sensible decisions made by the Army Brass regarding tanks.

The T-72 chassis has a ~400 mm glacis thickness, which increase to roughly 700 mm with ERA. It would have been a meaningless exercise to go for the Tank EX with some 900-1000 mm thick armor at the turret and a meager 400 mm at the glacis.

And then there is the problem of lack of space in the chassis of the T-72, which limits most future upgrades.

In short this tank would have really been meaningless in future warfare.

 

[sancho]

But one thing you have been simply failing to realize is that no matter what you do,the weight of the tank is gonna increase with newer and heavier armor upgrades!!Even with an autoloader in you place,you can not bind the weight of an MBT under 50 tons..

Who said something about under 50t? I said lighter than Arjun Mk1


T72 – around 41t
Arjun MK1 – 58t
=> Tank Ex MK1 – around 47t

T90S – around 46t
Arjun MK2 – 68t
=> Tank EX Mk2 - between 50 and 55t?

- smaller size and weight than both Arjun versions
- lighter and more firepower than T90 and Arjun Mk1
- missile firing capability
- automatic target tracking
- Remote Control Weapon Station

All this is available today, so why wait for FMBT?

 

[Omega007]

It was probably one of the very few sensible decisions made by the Army Brass regarding tanks.

That's your opinion,not a fact.

The T-72 chassis has a ~400 mm glacis thickness, which increase to roughly 700 mm with ERA. It would have been a meaningless exercise to go for the Tank EX with some 900-1000 mm thick armor at the turret and a meager 400 mm at the glacis.

Nonsense!!The T 72M1 glacis armor's LOS value is stated to circa 550 mm at 0 degree.And Tank Ex turret didn't have such values,it was more like circa 750-800 mm at 0 degree from main gun axis!!And even if your values were to be true,what's the big problem??Historical record since WWII shows that majority of the hits taken by tanks were on the turret,not the hull.So it's obvious,one would want to put heavier armor over the frontal turret compared to the hull front!!It's no big deal.

And then there is the problem of lack of space in the chassis of the T-72, which limits most future upgrades.

So what??Have you ever seen the interior of a tan,brother??Had you seen,you would have known that almost 100% of the vehicle electronics are placed in the turret,since that's the place where gunner's and commander's stations are usually situated in!!So Tank Ex chassis lacking space wouldn't have posed any problems for future vectronics up-gradation!!After all,the Chasis house the driver only and he doesn't need any FCS or anything significant in terms of electronic equipments!!

In short this tank would have really been meaningless in future warfare.

It was supposed to be a deep upgrade,an interim solution only,till the FMBT would be available for service induction!!This way,Indian Army would have been able to get a modern MBT fleet compared to what the situation they are left in with the FMBT no where to be seen!!But then again,"It was probably one of the very few sensible decisions made by the Army Brass regarding tanks!!"

Who said something about under 50t? I said lighter than Arjun Mk1


T72 – around 41t
Arjun MK1 – 58t
=> Tank Ex MK1 – around 47t

T90S – around 46t
Arjun MK2 – 68t
=> Tank EX Mk2 - between 50 and 55t?

- smaller size and weight than both Arjun versions
- lighter and more firepower than T90 and Arjun Mk1
- missile firing capability
- automatic target tracking
- Remote Control Weapon Station

All this is available today, so why wait for FMBT?

I see.But even then,it will be difficult to restrict the overall weight under 55 ton,even with an autoloader,if you wanna provide adequate overall protection.Just look at the South Korean K 2 Black Panther or the latest versions of the French Leclerc MBTs.Both have 3 men crew yet couldn't tap the weight at 55 ton!!And the K2 doesn't even have any special armor on its turret sides!!

Yes, actually. You are correct. It does have a very typical post German(/Turk) feel to it - quite unlike the Arjun, T 90 chassis/hull combos we are used to.

The design looks quite promising,only except the main gun.For a tank which is supposed to be for future battlefields,a 125mm L52 just doesn't make the cut.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Exactly.


Yeah,heard it from Kunal.He said DRDO was looking to shift a version of the Cockpit NG with full screen digital FCS with big touch screen LCDs for the gunner and commander's stations for increased situational awareness.I also heard that there is talks about developing a 2 men crew version with unmanned turret,a 140mm smooth barrel gun and very thick armor over glacis plate at reduced weight of 40-45 ton (due to weight saved from usage of the smaller unmanned turret).Seems like DRDO is trying to keep all the options open since they are not sure what the Army is gonna ask for.

Kunal sir ke cheno tumi?*** er ki member naki tumi??

 

[PATHAN786KING]

Any time frame on it? 10 years?

30 years then rejected

@SarthakGanguly - Kitnei km detaa haii per liter ?

70 KM per liter