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India's bid for NSG: Members countries talking about alternate plan if China remains unmoved

you guys are talking like india is the Grand Great Superpower of the world and if china oppose india in NSG, india will vanish china from the face of the earth....

Please guys say something from reality...
no matter if china stand still or made some agreements for greater good..... How will india isolate china..

china is the one of the biggest investor in Asia, Africa, America South, America North or Europe..

china holds trillions of $$$ of worth in USA and the 2nd largest trade partner of USA..

china is the largest investor in russia and are to be the largest trade partner of russia..

china is the 2nd largest trade partner of EU and invest billions of $$$ in EU...

china is the one of the largest trade partner of Africa Union and largest resources buyer from AU and china is also the largest investor in AU..

You got it wrong.

It is not India which would isolate China but China themselves.

They are going to fight 47 members of NSG for what purpose in the end?

India would still continue to do Business with the major NSG powers and suppliers that matter even without being a NSG member.

China would loose more by opposing India than gain.
 
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You got it wrong.

It is not India which would isolate China but China themselves.

They are going to fight 47 members of NSG for what purpose in the end?

India would still continue to do Business with the major NSG powers and suppliers that matter even without being a NSG member.

China would loose more by opposing India than gain.
NSG for Pakistan would mean further Chinese investment in nuclear power. A nation of 180 million could use billions of dollars of nuclear investment that is only possible through Pakistan participation. China already has investments in developed world, but Pakistan remains key for China in this field.

Now whether India is in or not is irrelevant to China or anybody, even India to a large extent, as you can get a lot of the stuff anyways, and seeing as you don't have much in the way of exporting of high tech nuclear technology, it really doesn't matter.

But to your point of hurting China, this is the same weak argument some Chinese members made about the US when they opposed AIIB. These things rarely if ever matter even in the short term and the only thing that doesn't change is the hard power each country holds. Which this little side show doesn't change in the slightest.

Example, for as bad as China American relationship seems, we overtook Canada to become their biggest trading partner last year. We are still in RIMPAC, and the Americans talked to China on climate change, not one of its funny little allies.

Though I have to say, now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's easy to see why the Americans so enjoy their superpower status. It's fun.
 
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You got it wrong.

It is not India which would isolate China but China themselves.

They are going to fight 47 members of NSG for what purpose in the end?

India would still continue to do Business with the major NSG powers and suppliers that matter even without being a NSG member.

China would loose more by opposing India than gain.

I agree- India should push it to the absolute limit and then withdraw and break the group, this will expose the evil siblings.

We already have bilateral agreements with most nuclear material and tech powers of the world.
 
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NSG for Pakistan would mean further Chinese investment in nuclear power. A nation of 180 million could use billions of dollars of nuclear investment that is only possible through Pakistan participation. China already has investments in developed world, but Pakistan remains key for China in this field.

Now whether India is in or not is irrelevant to China or anybody, even India to a large extent, as you can get a lot of the stuff anyways, and seeing as you don't have much in the way of exporting of high tech nuclear technology, it really doesn't matter.

But to your point of hurting China, this is the same weak argument some Chinese members made about the US when they opposed AIIB. These things rarely if ever matter even in the short term and the only thing that doesn't change is the hard power each country holds. Which this little side show doesn't change in the slightest.

Example, for as bad as China American relationship seems, we overtook Canada to become their biggest trading partner last year. We are still in RIMPAC, and the Americans talked to China on climate change, not one of its funny little allies.

Though I have to say, now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's easy to see why the Americans so enjoy their superpower status. It's fun.

Gotta admit, You chaps are playing you're super power card with elan. Question is, it is good diplomacy in the long run, tethering your boat to a sinking monstrosity?

China is known for its real politik if nothing else. Sun Tzu et all.
 
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Gotta admit, You chaps are playing you're super power card with elan. Question is, it is good diplomacy in the long run, tethering your boat to a sinking monstrosity?

China is known for its real politik if nothing else. Sun Tzu et all.
Pakistan is that bad, but only to you. In the rest of the world, Pakistan is a harbor for terror, India is the slum capital of the world and China is an oppressive regime. It all depends on how and where you view things.

Consider Pakistan, from our point of view, we will sign one of the biggest nuclear deals in the world once it's all said and done, we have billions invested in infrastructure, and it is a large market for our exports, be it civilian or military. It is a major player in the Indian Ocean and they open doors to the Muslim world.

You were fighting us for Nepal and it's not even a dot on a map.

Think about Indian member's post about Vietnam, you guys like to throw it out there, when all you really have is superficial at best relations to a nation, let's be honest, much weaker than Pakistan.

Having said all of that, the only way you can say Pakistan isn't priority uno is if you are lying. I mean the US won't even abandon a failed regime like the Philippines, but we would our most important partner for what? Feelings? Would you?
 
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Even though China is a great ally of Pakistan, we should not assume that it would place its own self-interest above Pakistans. Just like in 2007 when China agreed to give India a waiver in the NSG, it is possible that China can be moved.
 
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Pakistan is that bad, but only to you. In the rest of the world, Pakistan is a harbor for terror, India is the slum capital of the world and China is an oppressive regime. It all depends on how and where you view things.

Consider Pakistan, from our point of view, we will sign one of the biggest nuclear deals in the world once it's all said and done, we have billions invested in infrastructure, and it is a large market for our exports, be it civilian or military. It is a major player in the Indian Ocean and they open doors to the Muslim world.

You were fighting us for Nepal and it's not even a dot on a map.

Think about Indian member's post about Vietnam, you guys like to throw it out there, when all you really have is superficial at best relations to a nation, let's be honest, much weaker than Pakistan.

Having said all of that, the only way you can say Pakistan isn't priority uno is if you are lying. I mean the US won't even abandon a failed regime like the Philippines, but we would our most important partner for what? Feelings? Would you?

Fair enough. I see where you are coming from. Though being "Indian" I remain skeptical. I'll tell you why..

Differences aside the Western and Eastern world remain united on a few constants, basic human rights being one of them. There exists aberrations obviously. You have your Tianmens and we have your Sikh/Muslim riots and pogroms, but by and large all parties agree that all men and women irrespective of their religion are born equal and should be accorded equal rights.

That is unfortunately not the case with your partner, what with the concept of second class citizens, ahmadiyas and what not .. There are tons of other stuff I'm not inclined to point out for obvious reasons.
Your core beliefs and character are as diametrically opposed to them as oil and water. You know that.

As far as the financial motives go, I see China pouring in billions of dollars with practically no quid pro quo. Is your partner honestly that big a market for your goods? Is it worth vexing the "Indian" market for as trivial a point as NSG.. (we benefit from it anyway as it is as you pointed out earlier).

Allies are transient. You would know. Look at Japan and America ...

I just hope this fracas doesn't boil down to a juvenile clash of egos between two major powers. There is much we can do (are doing) together.
 
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it's ok with alternate plan etc. but we need to make a coordinated effort to see if the Chinese can be got on board. They are our neighbors and negotiations with neighbors should be our first priority. Alternate plans should be last resort.
 
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What ever happens from here on, China will have come out worse.

To be frank China's image has taken a beating among people of India. with a Huge trade deficit in it's favour and with India planning spend billions in Infra projects, will Chinse be the losers?
On top of all this, India can really make things tough for a lot of Chinese companies that export to India.

This is the problem and here is again... message to India... you can't buy everything... Money is not everything "Money talks bullshit walks" but sometime.. bullshit stuck in something even having money!

Like India created BIMSTEC to replace SAARC.

It won't be difficult for US.

NSG is an unofficial cozy group and not an official group like IAEA or treaty like NPT which carry UN mandate.

lol UN Mandate - China has veto power over there as well ;) :lol:
 
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it's ok with alternate plan etc. but we need to make a coordinated effort to see if the Chinese can be got on board. They are our neighbors and negotiations with neighbors should be our first priority. Alternate plans should be last resort.

Don't you think India don't done that
President visit ,foreign secretary

Chinese still in cold war mind set
 
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Fair enough. I see where you are coming from. Though being "Indian" I remain skeptical. I'll tell you why..

Differences aside the Western and Eastern world remain united on a few constants, basic human rights being one of them. There exists aberrations obviously. You have your Tianmens and we have your Sikh/Muslim riots and pogroms, but by and large all parties agree that all men and women irrespective of their religion are born equal and should be accorded equal rights.

That is unfortunately not the case with your partner, what with the concept of second class citizens, ahmadiyas and what not .. There are tons of other stuff I'm not inclined to point out for obvious reasons.
Your core beliefs and character are as diametrically opposed to them as oil and water. You know that.

Come on, I seen China's rich and powerful legally rob poor peasants, I seen India's rich having guards around their luxury cars so no one gets close. China and Pakistan may not be ideologically twins, but we share a common interest, theirs is to develop their country and ours is to extent our influence.

Pakistan's problems are the same as China and India's. Poverty. China's poor are now getting better opportunities and treatment than India's poor mostly because we developed more. It certainly isn't because we became better people, I mean obviously. The same will happen for Pakistan.

As far as the financial motives go, I see China pouring in billions of dollars with practically no quid pro quo. Is your partner honestly that big a market for your goods? Is it worth vexing the "Indian" market for as trivial a point as NSG.. (we benefit from it anyway as it is as you pointed out earlier).

Allies are transient. You would know. Look at Japan and America ...

I just hope this fracas doesn't boil down to a juvenile clash of egos between two major powers. There is much we can do (are doing) together.

Market is tricky to define, we have a huge trade surplus because we offer a good product at the price, that domestic Indian companies cannot. It's that simple. It's not a conspiracy. We are global and Indian manufacturing largely isn't, hence the lower price, that and infrastructure, availability of skilled workers and government assistance and all that.

Even if you do try to ban our products, all that would do is put you in the dog house of global reputation and in reality would do little to make you competitive globally, if not worsen. I mean that is the reason no nation has ever done that to another nation, except the Soviet's Berlin wall. Neither of those exists now.

Market to me, in this context, has to be strategic. India won't buy our weapons, key infrastructure, nuclear reactors and a host of other big ticket nation to nation items. In this sense, Pakistan is far and away the bigger market.

The civilian markets will fall where they will, on a national scale, Pakistan is our biggest customer by far and, in this context, India isn't even more important than Sudan.

As to clash of ego, to see how this isn't about India, China invited Modi to APEC, China invited India to SCO, China made India the second largest member in AIIB and certainly extended invites to one belt and more. China is not against India in far more important institutions but this is a sour point?

It's obvious to me this is about CPEC and China's desire for further Pakistani deals in civilian nuclear sector, which we cannot get without them in the organization. Or at least difficult.
 
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It is ironic and funny to the Nth degree how Indians here believe that China would not stand against India because of their large scale economic ties but then, in the same breath, are deluded enough to also expect that the west would all rally together and stand for India against their own, much more massive and major, economic ties with China. And for what? The massive self-illusion-ed importance of India? Puhleeez....... :lol:
 
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It is ironic and funny to the Nth degree how Indians here believe that China would not stand against India because of their large scale economic ties but then, in the same breath, are deluded enough to also expect that the west would all rally together and stand for India against their own, much more massive and major, economic ties with China. And for what? The massive self-illusion-ed importance of India? Puhleeez....... :lol:

For what india already has waiver from NSG. So chinese efforts are useless and bad diplomacy
Ruining diplomatic & economic ties for no gain
 
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Lol, a thread filled with rants of toiletless shupa powa isolating China :D
 
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Seems China just won't let India get on with its strategy of non alignment 2.0.

The die is cast.
 
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