Indian Sea Harrier Tests BVR Missile

[ejaz007]

Indian Sea Harrier Tests BVR Missile
By vivek raghuvanshi
Published: 16 Apr 11:09 EDT (07:09 GMT) Print | Email

NEW DELHI - Operating in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Goa last week, an Indian navy Sea Harrier test-fired a Derby beyond-visual-range (BVR) missile.

It was the Navy's first live test of the Israeli-made Derby, a senior service official said April 15, and two more live tests are planned in the near future.

Indian navy sources said the missile hit its target on the high seas from a distance of 20 kilometers at a speed of Mach 1.2 and was able to lock onto the target before launch.

The Indian navy signed a $25 million contract in 2005 with the missile's maker, Rafael, for procurement of 20 Derby missiles to replace aging Sea Eagle missiles bought from BAE Systems in the early 1980s.

Meanwhile, India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics is upgrading the Navy's 15 Sea Harrier jump jets, purchased from BAE in 1983, under a $115 million contract. The upgraded aircraft will be armed with the Derby BVR missile.

The Sea Harriers were set to be retired along with the aircraft carrier INS Viraat in 2010, the Navy official said, but this upgrade will keep the planes in service for deployment on the planned Air Defense Ship.

Indian Sea Harrier Tests BVR Missile - Defense News

I guess Indians are preparing themselves for the delay in the arrival of aircraft carrier from Russia and are taking measures to keep Sea Harriers and INS Virat beyond 2010.

 

[Energon]

What a waste of valuable resources. The Sea Harrier platform is at the wrong end of the cost benefit analysis to warrant any more upgrades. It would have been far better to take a page from the Royal Navy's book and retire the entire Harrier fleet. Viraat should have been converted into a helicopter carrier until the induction of the new carrier(s) and all the money allotted for the Harriers should have been diverted to the nLCA and the ADS projects.

 

[IceCold]

It seems that sea harriers fitted with a BVR is done for two reasons imo,

1) The delay in their LCA programe.
2) Keeping in mind that the PN will pretty soon induct the JF-17 for the naval role which will be equiped with a BVR.

Remember that the MIG-21 of the IAF went under similar upgrades because LCA was not there in time to replace the aging fleet.
Mig-29 are also being upgraded to provide a stop gap until the MRCA deal gets finalized and india starts getting the deliveries.

 

[IceCold]

What a waste of valuable resources. The Sea Harrier platform is at the wrong end of the cost benefit analysis to warrant any more upgrades. It would have been far better to take a page from the Royal Navy's book and retire the entire Harrier fleet. Viraat should have been converted into a helicopter carrier until the induction of the new carrier(s) and all the money allotted for the Harriers should have been diverted to the nLCA and the ADS projects.

I dont think its a waiste of resources. India does need something as a stop gap until LCA gets mature enough to be inducted in the IN as well as other jets that are planned on the indian list.
Remember that the IAF already is very upset with the declining numbers of their jets.

 

[Energon]

The number is still enough to effectively combat the threat from Pakistan (which in itself is declining). The Sea Harriers will not provide anything significant worthy of this investment which cannot be offered by other more potent platforms in the IAF's fleet, particularly the Su30MKIs and JaguarIMs.

The Navy will also soon have a small contingent of Mig29Ks with state of the art avionics that will give them the ability to have a serious albeit limited aerial presence.

IMO the Sea Harrier upgrade is nothing more than an internal pissing contest between the IN and the IAF; unfortunately it just isn't cost effective to be justified.

 

[Contrarian]

There is no pissing contest mate. Vikramaditya is delayed, so the life of Viraat is being extended till 2015. There have to be some kind of fighters running of Viraat or the carrier aviation skills would severely decline. Carrier operations are a perishable skill. Converting it into a helicoptor carrier does not serve the needs of the IN. IN's needs are different from RN's.

If all goes to plan, then the Vikramaditya would join the IN(after finishing the trials, etc) around 2015 with its MiG 29K, and the IAC would join around the same time with N-LCA. SO that would give IN 2 carriers.

This upgrade to the Harriers is just to make the Harriers that much more effective till 2015.

And FYI: MiG 29 upgrade is not a stop gap arrangement. IAF has no plans to phase them out for atleast another deacade notwithstanding whether the MRCA or LCA come in fast or late. Double goes for its cousin, Mirage 2000. Read up on the upgrade package of the IAF MiG 29's and the M2K's. Hint: Its not cheap and its not an interim arrangement.

 

[Energon]

There is no pissing contest mate. Vikramaditya is delayed, so the life of Viraat is being extended till 2015. There have to be some kind of fighters running of Viraat or the carrier aviation skills would severely decline. Carrier operations are a perishable skill. Converting it into a helicoptor carrier does not serve the needs of the IN. IN's needs are different from RN's.

If all goes to plan, then the Vikramaditya would join the IN(after finishing the trials, etc) around 2015 with its MiG 29K, and the IAC would join around the same time with N-LCA. SO that would give IN 2 carriers.

This upgrade to the Harriers is just to make the Harriers that much more effective till 2015.

And FYI: MiG 29 upgrade is not a stop gap arrangement. IAF has no plans to phase them out for atleast another deacade notwithstanding whether the MRCA or LCA come in fast or late. Double goes for its cousin, Mirage 2000. Read up on the upgrade package of the IAF MiG 29's and the M2K's. Hint: Its not cheap and its not an interim arrangement.

Do you honestly think the subsonic vintage Harriers even with basic BVR missiles are going to offer any credible air defense to the Indian naval fleet during the time of war when any enemy in its right mind would throw their best fighters to attack IN ships? No, this job will be carried out by IN's shipborne SAM missile systems and IAF fighters (considering an engagement within the region). Similarly it is unlikely that the Harriers can be used as an effective strike platform in the region if you take into account the data from the British, US and other NATO forces who used either the Sea Harrier, GR variants or the AV8 models in Afghanistan which indicated that in high ambient temperatures the Harriers are rather troublesome under performers. Also, one must keep in mind that the IN's Sea Harriers unlike their western counterparts lack an advanced radar system like the Blue Vixen along with other ECM hardware making them even more susceptible to ground fire in the case of war. As far as I can see, the Harriers are a more of a liability than operational augmenters.

The Royal Navy's operational parameters are far greater than that of the IN; also, they have been engaging enemies who have virtually no air defense capabilities; despite these advantages the Fleet's air arm has decided to lay its Sea Harriers to rest and convert all their existing carriers to strictly helicopter platforms... and frankly I don't blame them, simply because these birds are far too expensive, fastidious and accident prone to keep airworthy; especially when they don't really provide as much operational depth as one would hope.

Now I agree with you regarding the perishable skill sets required to operate an AC which are far too critical to lose. However it should be known that the IN has always managed to keep their skills intact despite the Vikrant and the Viraat being in dry docks for a significant part of their operational life with the IN. In fact, the Viraat itself will be unavailable until 2009 as it undergoes another major refit. In order to keep their skill level up there are two measures that can and should be taken:
1. Have pilots alternate their training in the US (an option that was not available until recently) for STOBAR operations with the Goshawks and at home on the Mig29K using the carrier deck simulation facility.
2. Keep the sea, deck and helo crews active on the Viraat as a helicopter carrier (This is what the RN has done)
There is absolutely no reason to keep the Harriers operational (even as a trainer) since the IN will not be adopting another STOVL platform anytime soon.

The elephant in the room is that the IN doesn't want to admit that its CBG is only symbolic and effective against weaker adversaries like Pakistan or Sri Lanka. The Viraat with its Harrier air complement can't really measure up to any adversary with a decent air force of its own; which in turn means that it is actually the IAF with far more powerful and mid air refueling capable aircrafts who would be running the show and keeping the PAF at bay if there was a conventional war with Pakistan. Now maybe one day the IN with two/three carriers with an air complement of Mig29Ks and nLCAs will be a force to reckon with (albeit I think the nLCA has far too many limitations to be an effective multirole shipborne platform) but that is not the case today. And frankly the IN would be much better off using the limited funds at their disposal more wisely to attain a higher level of operational capacity tomorrow than having a symbolic one today.

 

[Neo]

What a waste of valuable resources. The Sea Harrier platform is at the wrong end of the cost benefit analysis to warrant any more upgrades. It would have been far better to take a page from the Royal Navy's book and retire the entire Harrier fleet. Viraat should have been converted into a helicopter carrier until the induction of the new carrier(s) and all the money allotted for the Harriers should have been diverted to the nLCA and the ADS projects.

I agree, Sea Harrier is near completing lifespan and will have to be replaced in few years. With current fuel crisis its become a burden for all operators.

 

[Contrarian]

Do you honestly think the subsonic vintage Harriers even with basic BVR missiles are going to offer any credible air defense to the Indian naval fleet during the time of war when any enemy in its right mind would throw their best fighters to attack IN ships? No, this job will be carried out by IN's shipborne SAM missile systems and IAF fighters (considering an engagement within the region).

Definitely, but AFAIK, the Derby offers LOAL capabilities so that helps if the radar is not powerful enough, secondly the Sea Harriers i think are being fitted with the Elta 2032. So i think that the El/m 2032 along with Derby fitted on even the most mundane fighters is an effective interceptor.

Secondly, with the Harriers, i think even the IN knows that it cannot go for any strikes, its mainly to protect its fleet. And Harrier can do that effectively as a missile carrying interceptor that can far exceed the SAM ranges of any ship.

Thirdly, IN as of now is fitting Barak I on most of its frontline warships, and range of Barak-I is around 10 kms. That is nowhere near the required defence. Barak II is being developed with Israel. That would have a range of around 70kms, which would be put on almost all the frontline warships. Only then would IN have good AAW coverage. Barak I is only for AshM's and that too can be overwhelmed by salvo strikes. Barak II is being made just so that the new carriers are protected adequately. Till they are fitted, Sea Harriers would still remain the Navy's most potent fleet defendors.

Similarly it is unlikely that the Harriers can be used as an effective strike platform in the region if you take into account the data from the British, US and other NATO forces who used either the Sea Harrier, GR variants or the AV8 models in Afghanistan which indicated that in high ambient temperatures the Harriers are rather troublesome under performers. Also, one must keep in mind that the IN's Sea Harriers unlike their western counterparts lack an advanced radar system like the Blue Vixen along with other ECM hardware making them even more susceptible to ground fire in the case of war. As far as I can see, the Harriers are a more of a liability than operational augmenters.

Nope, its not for strike, read on my last para.

The Royal Navy's operational parameters are far greater than that of the IN; also, they have been engaging enemies who have virtually no air defense capabilities; despite these advantages the Fleet's air arm has decided to lay its Sea Harriers to rest and convert all their existing carriers to strictly helicopter platforms... and frankly I don't blame them, simply because these birds are far too expensive, fastidious and accident prone to keep airworthy; especially when they don't really provide as much operational depth as one would hope.

Its not for providing any kind of depth apart from fleet air defence at extended ranges and Harrier with Elta 2032 and Derby can provide that adequately till the MiG 29K's come.

Now I agree with you regarding the perishable skill sets required to operate an AC which are far too critical to lose. However it should be known that the IN has always managed to keep their skills intact despite the Vikrant and the Viraat being in dry docks for a significant part of their operational life with the IN. In fact, the Viraat itself will be unavailable until 2009 as it undergoes another major refit. In order to keep their skill level up there are two measures that can and should be taken:
1. Have pilots alternate their training in the US (an option that was not available until recently) for STOBAR operations with the Goshawks and at home on the Mig29K using the carrier deck simulation facility.

As of now, pilots that will fly the MiG 29K's are already undergoing training in the US on the T-45 Goshawks. This was done because apparently, even though Russia can provide the Carrier, the planes, they cant provide the training.

Secondly, now the Navy has also requested for 17 of its own Hawks for its own training. Till that time, all the IN's pilots will undergo training in the US.

2. Keep the sea, deck and helo crews active on the Viraat as a helicopter carrier (This is what the RN has done)
There is absolutely no reason to keep the Harriers operational (even as a trainer) since the IN will not be adopting another STOVL platform anytime soon.

IN doesnt need a helicoptor carrier. Like i said, RN might find it operationally useful, but IN doesnt need them exclusively.

The elephant in the room is that the IN doesn't want to admit that its CBG is only symbolic and effective against weaker adversaries like Pakistan or Sri Lanka. The Viraat with its Harrier air complement can't really measure up to any adversary with a decent air force of its own; which in turn means that it is actually the IAF with far more powerful and mid air refueling capable aircrafts who would be running the show and keeping the PAF at bay if there was a conventional war with Pakistan. Now maybe one day the IN with two/three carriers with an air complement of Mig29Ks and nLCAs will be a force to reckon with (albeit I think the nLCA has far too many limitations to be an effective multirole shipborne platform) but that is not the case today. And frankly the IN would be much better off using the limited funds at their disposal more wisely to attain a higher level of operational capacity tomorrow than having a symbolic one today.

I think having the Harrier upgraded is perfect for interim needs. You can see my views above.

 

[Energon]

^^ Even with the Elta radar and the derby missiles the Harrier would be a inadequate interceptor given its subsonic speed and lower operational altitude; that these aspects are further reduced in higher ambient temperatures makes it even worse.

Harriers were primarily designed to be strike aircrafts capable of CAS missions. Obviously they are unable to provide these services in hostile airspaces; this combined with their limited/nonexistent capabilities as interceptors or air superiority fighters makes them fairly useless.

I have read your reasons, and still fail to see a good enough reason to warrant the gargantuan expenditure associated with keeping these aircrafts active.

I think the IN could certainly use a helicopter carrier; unfortunately the Indian forces have only recently rediscovered the benefits of large scale helicopter operations.

Bottom line is that the difficulties that the IN is facing currently is on account of decades of poor planning and pathetic procurement policies (mostly due to overinflated and inefficient bureaucracy). There is no denying that lack of adequate funds also contributed towards this problem. Nonetheless I think it would be beneficial to put pride aside and use the funds more wisely this time around thereby ensuring that the mistakes are not repeated.

 

[Contrarian]

^^ Even with the Elta radar and the derby missiles the Harrier would be a inadequate interceptor given its subsonic speed and lower operational altitude; that these aspects are further reduced in higher ambient temperatures makes it even worse.

Harriers were primarily designed to be strike aircrafts capable of CAS missions. Obviously they are unable to provide these services in hostile airspaces; this combined with their limited/nonexistent capabilities as interceptors or air superiority fighters makes them fairly useless.

I have read your reasons, and still fail to see a good enough reason to warrant the gargantuan expenditure associated with keeping these aircrafts active.

Mate, all that Harrier has to do is point in the right direction, make sure the radar detects the opposing fighter or ship and press the launch button. Makes for a useful interceptor given nothing else is available.

Again, the Shar can fire an AshM on an enemy ship from its max standoff range and escape unharmed, none of the ships in the region here have an AAW range that exceed the stand off range of Sea eagle or any other AshM loaded on the Shar. There are no other planes to intercept the Shar from carrying out what i just said(barring the USN ofcourse). So it still remains an effective platform in South Asian context.

And by the time the threat elevates, MiG 29K's would come, so would hopefully the NLCA.

I think the IN could certainly use a helicopter carrier; unfortunately the Indian forces have only recently rediscovered the benefits of large scale helicopter operations.

True!

Bottom line is that the difficulties that the IN is facing currently is on account of decades of poor planning and pathetic procurement policies (mostly due to overinflated and inefficient bureaucracy). There is no denying that lack of adequate funds also contributed towards this problem. Nonetheless I think it would be beneficial to put pride aside and use the funds more wisely this time around thereby ensuring that the mistakes are not repeated.

Mate, as far as planning is concerned, IN has been far better than the IAF or IA. It has CONSISTENTLY supported indegenous equipment. That is the reason you see why a lot of these DDG"s and FFG's are being built in India. The reason all are not made here is because literally each and everyone of the shipyards in India are advance booked for years, to augument the capacity, they are ordering from other nations. Their planning has always taken into account attritions and retirement. THe only thing to hit the navy was the lost decade from '85 to '95 in which they did not get to order even a SINGLE ship. What They are facing is a result of that crunch now.

However, given the literally massive investment in the shipyards by both govt and on a far greater scale by the private shipyards, this would change. Private shipyards are now given licences to manufacture naval warships.

 

[Energon]

Mate, all that Harrier has to do is point in the right direction, make sure the radar detects the opposing fighter or ship and press the launch button. Makes for a useful interceptor given nothing else is available.

Again, the Shar can fire an AshM on an enemy ship from its max standoff range and escape unharmed, none of the ships in the region here have an AAW range that exceed the stand off range of Sea eagle or any other AshM loaded on the Shar. There are no other planes to intercept the Shar from carrying out what i just said(barring the USN ofcourse). So it still remains an effective platform in South Asian context.

And by the time the threat elevates, MiG 29K's would come, so would hopefully the NLCA.

The same job can be done by land based fighters such as Su30s and SEPECAT Jaguars. I'm not denying that keeping the Harriers in service avails more jets for the Indian forces; the question is how cost effective is this plan? Sea Harriers are some of the most, if not the most fastidious aircrafts in the world. They require extensive overhauls and refits frequently which are extremely expensive. They are also very accident prone and the records from all its users worldwide prove this. Their all-metal frames (unlike the other variants) make the platform very heavy and hence highly fuel inefficient; and the overall operational benefits as I've said before are fairly limited.

With the threat perceptions relatively low right now, the IN should have taken the opportunity to spend this money on speeding up other projects such as the nLCA or the ADS'

 

[Contrarian]

The same job can be done by land based fighters such as Su30s and SEPECAT Jaguars. I'm not denying that keeping the Harriers in service avails more jets for the Indian forces; the question is how cost effective is this plan? Sea Harriers are some of the most, if not the most fastidious aircrafts in the world. They require extensive overhauls and refits frequently which are extremely expensive. They are also very accident prone and the records from all its users worldwide prove this. Their all-metal frames (unlike the other variants) make the platform very heavy and hence highly fuel inefficient; and the overall operational benefits as I've said before are fairly limited.

But SHar is the only one that can be used off the Carrier. Suppose IN feels the need to deploy near the Malacca straights, then its out of any kind of land based coverage, and the fleet HAS to rely on the SAM's and the Shar's. This is one flexibility that IN is highly relucant to give up. The keyword is "suppose". Doesnt mean that they are going to, but assuming that there could be hostilities with China, then at that time the IN would rue not having Harriers for whatever kind of support they could offer.Not having them would mean a useless carrier. As of now, IN doesnt need LHD's.

With the threat perceptions relatively low right now, the IN should have taken the opportunity to spend this money on speeding up other projects such as the nLCA or the ADS'

Thats where your wrong mate. Its not as if they have need of money that they can put somewhere else. The govt sanctions grants for each and every project separately, so for NLCA or anything else, money has already been given, and will be continued regardless whether the Navy spends its alloted amount or not. Secondly, ADS and N-LCA are on track, more money will not mean faster results. Thirdly, you forget, Navy also gives back a good unspent amount of the money allocated to it from the defence budget every year, so money's not a problem right now.

Its not about saving money, its about having even that extra little bit of flexibility in operations that only Shar can give right now.