Indian Punjab is Self Destructing....Unlike Pakistan's Punjab

[Tomtheguy]

Sikhs can thank Tara Singh and their marauding jhatas that massacred hundreds of thousands, raped and kidnapped thousands in '47 for their current predicament.

My family is originally from Hoshiarpur, E. Punjab, I have zero sympathy for and zero affinity with Sikhs.

You reap what you sow.

Feel bad for you and your family

 

[Maula Jatt]

Feel bad for you and your family

That's why you're giving laugh reacts?

Would you give laugh reacts when Sikh talks about Muslim armies commiting 2 genocides on them so brutel that not many were even left in Punjab
Would that be something worth laughing at for you?, As Muslim suffering is a laughing matter might as well laugh here too rapejeet

 

[Tomtheguy]

That's why you're giving laugh reacts?

Would you give laugh reacts when Sikh talks about Muslim armies commiting 2 genocides on them so brutel that not many were even left in Punjab
Would that be something worth laughing at for you?, As Muslim suffering is a laughing matter might as well laugh here too rapejeet

I am not good with emoji , and about muslim genocide , no i won't laugh , we all know how many people were converted and raped by muslim armies , it was so bad that the victims started calling themselves descendents of those rapist now .

 

[Wikki019]

"Never interrrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake"

Dont take the bait, Its their deluded and arrogant attitude that lead to incidents like Abinandhan getting captured.

Still remember Indians asking me on fb what will you do against mighty sukhois almost every other day before 27 feb .

 

[Vapnope]

Pakistan/Muslim punjabis are a unique group in the history of the world, were massacred, ethnically cleansed and genocided by their ethnic punjabi sikh brethern merely 70 odd years ago, yet their affinity and admiration for their tormentors never dies, such is the durability of ethnic bonds.

Indeed Pakistani Punjabi are really a unique group that they also named their arnaments on the invaders from Afghanistan and continue to offer their other cheek after getting slapped by brotherly Afghans.

In 70 years, we sacrificed our culture and language and adopted a foreign language just to find out that they immigrants still look down upon us in our own lands.

What is interesting to note is that despite every non punjabi showing concern on Punjabi nationalism, we never had something like Pushtunistan, Sindhu Desh, Jinnahpur or Azad Baluchistan. Maybe others need to look inward before they try to tell Punjabis what to do.

 

[Maula Jatt]

I am not good with emoji , and about muslim genocide , no i won't laugh , we all know how many people were converted and raped by muslim armies , it was so bad that the victims started calling themselves descendents of those rapist now .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistani_family_names
All are shared with Indian Punjabi cates and clans dhillon, Jutt, warraich, janjua, sethi etc
Conversion

The common misconception is that Muslims in subcontinent converted due to fear of the sword. The narrative makes it appear as if conquest = conversion, but it is a false belief. For instance, after Muhammad Bin Qasim annexed Sind and parts of Southern Punjab at age 17, his administration was full of Hindu Brahmins due to their experience in governance and familiarity with local political climate, which made them invaluable to the Arab conquerors. The conquest of Multan was welcomed by the non-Hindu groups particularly the Jats (not-Hindu), who had been oppressed according to Lane Poole. Majority of population of Sindh was Buddhist and had no intention of defending their homeland for a Hindu sovereign [4].



Poole describes “The work of conquest, as often happened in India, was thus aided by the disunion of the inhabitants, and jealousies of race and creed conspired to help the Muslims.” [6]



The temples were largely left alone partly due to revenue they provided to the new administration via pilgrim tributes. This is not to say there weren’t instances of desecration, but to say there was a systematic attempt to “submit” people to Islam by destroying temples and executing those who refused, a narrative peddled by some corners is completely false.



When Ghaznavid governor of Hindustan territories, Ahmad Niyaltigin (Turk) rebelled, Sultan Masud (reign 1030-1041) sent a Hindu General, Rai Tilak to take care of the problem. Tilak in fact volunteered for this role and was happily accepted for being a native of Hindustan. Tilak’s army was composed of his fellow Hindus who upon entering Lahore, captured Niyaltigin’s Muslim followers and cut off their hands to spread terror which lead to many desertions. Niyaltigin took to flight, who was eventually caught and killed by the Jats who had an agreement with Tilak. Sultan Masud would invite Tilak to the Ghaznavid court along with the head of Niyaltigin. Lastly, besides being Hindu, Tilak was not a high born, but a son of a barber and his rise in Ghaznavid ranks was based purely on merit [1].



The Hindu section of Ghaznavid army was used as a counter balance Turkish commanders who were disposed as they would not sympathize and cause a rebellion. Of the many examples, when Sultan Masud cornered his uncle Yusuf Subuktigin by arresting him in a fortress, the cavalry responsible for the transport was Hindu (or Sawar-i-Hindu).



Besides the army, Hindu vassals also supplemented Ghaznavid forces in times of need. Rais and Rana are two names that appear when in 1151, Sultan Bahram Shah intercepted Ghurid, Alauddin. These are not anomaly as there were Hindus in Ghaznavi service as well both in the army and administration, according to Seljuk Vizier’s Siyasatnama we discover that the Ghaznavid army had Turks, Hindus, Khurasanis, Arabs & Ghurids that were kept separately for better cohesiveness and to benefit from each group’s ethos which individually contributed to diversity. The leader of the contingent was addressed with the title Sipahsalar-i- Hinduan and were utilized in Ghaznavid battles against Ilak Khan in Balkh & against Khanids. [2]



Of course then there is the infamous sacking of Hindu temples. Then again the objective here was never to negate the exploits of Mahmud Ghaznavi in India, but the underlying point here is forced conversions in Punjab to which we find no reference and the service of Hindus in the upper echelon of Ghaznavid state machinery & Muhammad Bin Qasim’s administration only prove that there was no systemic attempt at forcing Islam on non-Muslims. [2]

Another thing to add is that the non-Muslim involvement in state affairs only grew with subsequent rulers, for example at one point the Grand Vizier of Mughal Empire was a Punjabi Hindu by the name Rai Todal Mal during Akbar’s reign, unarguably the peak of Mughals.



If we look at entire Hindustan the overwhelming majority is still non-Muslim, it was the basis of demanding Pakistan as a way to prevent living under a Hindu majority. As mentioned earlier if conversions were forced then surely states like Bihar would be Muslim majority considering that is where all these Muslim rulers based themselves. In Punjab specifically, in 1941 census just over half (53.2%) of Punjab’s population was Muslim, Hindus at 29.1% and Sikhs at just 14.9%. Yet previously in 1881 the census recorded Muslims at 47.6%, Hindus at 43.8% and Sikhs at 8.2%. [3]. And according to this same 1881 census half of Jatt population did not even convert to Islam even after a thousand plus years of the Religion’s presence in Punjab. [4] [4]

Process of Conversions in Punjab:



One of the main issues with the argument of Muslims converting to Islam forcibly is that Punjab has always remained a periphery territory for Delhi based Central Asian Muslim rulers where this supposed forced Islamization were to occur. Wouldn’t places like Uttar Pradesh be majority Muslim given the duration of Islamic rule in Hindustan? Yet Interior Indian remained overwhelmingly non-Muslim. Bengal is another example of a periphery territory with a substantive Muslim populat



So, if it wasn’t the fear of the sword then what was it which lead to the Islamization of Punjab? The answer according to scholar Richard Eaton are shrines built on gravesite of Sufi saints, which operated as an institution. Prominent ones being in Taunsa, Makhad, Siyal Sharif, Sharqpur and of course Lahore which were located near the great rivers of Punjab whose dawah activities would bring Punjabis to Islam. Beyond the urban areas during dry seasons the nomads who were mostly Jats would bring their animals to the river areas, which would then have them rub shoulders with urban folk and their new faith. It is important to note, Jats were not Hin



As stated these shrines were an institution on their own, which connected the various tribes to the center in Delhi. Ghazi Malik who went on to found the Tughluq state and became known as Giyasuddin Tughluq was a regular at Pakpattan shrine during his days as a Dipalpur governor for Khaljis, where he was told by the diwan that his descendants will rule India, which of course became a reality. The two battles which lead to the formulation of Tughlaq dynasty had a significant presence & role of Khokhars, whether the common denominator was the Pakpattan shrine is a question I cant answer for sure. State patronage would follow and shrine keepers were even honored with robes and even employed in to imperial service. dus.ion.ial service.

Khokhars, Bhattis, Wattus & Siyals all claim to have been converted during Baba Farid’s (1173-1266) time & as mentioned all were willing to raise an army at the call of the shrine’s diwan [5]. The marriage alliances between clans and shrine keepers only strengthened this relationship, the great Punjabi rebel Jasrath Khokhar himself was father in law to Shaykh Faizullah of Pakpattan shrine according to a 16th century book, Jawahir-i-Faridi. [5]. The process of conversions was gradual and took a few centuries to complete, but its clear Islam had been present in Punjab well before even the Mughals had set foot & more or less the major tribes in Punjab had already converted.

 

[Tomtheguy]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pakistani_family_names
All are shared with Indian Punjabi cates and clans dhillon, Jutt, warraich, janjua, sethi etc
Conversion

The common misconception is that Muslims in subcontinent converted due to fear of the sword. The narrative makes it appear as if conquest = conversion, but it is a false belief. For instance, after Muhammad Bin Qasim annexed Sind and parts of Southern Punjab at age 17, his administration was full of Hindu Brahmins due to their experience in governance and familiarity with local political climate, which made them invaluable to the Arab conquerors. The conquest of Multan was welcomed by the non-Hindu groups particularly the Jats (not-Hindu), who had been oppressed according to Lane Poole. Majority of population of Sindh was Buddhist and had no intention of defending their homeland for a Hindu sovereign [4].



Poole describes “The work of conquest, as often happened in India, was thus aided by the disunion of the inhabitants, and jealousies of race and creed conspired to help the Muslims.” [6]



The temples were largely left alone partly due to revenue they provided to the new administration via pilgrim tributes. This is not to say there weren’t instances of desecration, but to say there was a systematic attempt to “submit” people to Islam by destroying temples and executing those who refused, a narrative peddled by some corners is completely false.



When Ghaznavid governor of Hindustan territories, Ahmad Niyaltigin (Turk) rebelled, Sultan Masud (reign 1030-1041) sent a Hindu General, Rai Tilak to take care of the problem. Tilak in fact volunteered for this role and was happily accepted for being a native of Hindustan. Tilak’s army was composed of his fellow Hindus who upon entering Lahore, captured Niyaltigin’s Muslim followers and cut off their hands to spread terror which lead to many desertions. Niyaltigin took to flight, who was eventually caught and killed by the Jats who had an agreement with Tilak. Sultan Masud would invite Tilak to the Ghaznavid court along with the head of Niyaltigin. Lastly, besides being Hindu, Tilak was not a high born, but a son of a barber and his rise in Ghaznavid ranks was based purely on merit [1].



The Hindu section of Ghaznavid army was used as a counter balance Turkish commanders who were disposed as they would not sympathize and cause a rebellion. Of the many examples, when Sultan Masud cornered his uncle Yusuf Subuktigin by arresting him in a fortress, the cavalry responsible for the transport was Hindu (or Sawar-i-Hindu).



Besides the army, Hindu vassals also supplemented Ghaznavid forces in times of need. Rais and Rana are two names that appear when in 1151, Sultan Bahram Shah intercepted Ghurid, Alauddin. These are not anomaly as there were Hindus in Ghaznavi service as well both in the army and administration, according to Seljuk Vizier’s Siyasatnama we discover that the Ghaznavid army had Turks, Hindus, Khurasanis, Arabs & Ghurids that were kept separately for better cohesiveness and to benefit from each group’s ethos which individually contributed to diversity. The leader of the contingent was addressed with the title Sipahsalar-i- Hinduan and were utilized in Ghaznavid battles against Ilak Khan in Balkh & against Khanids. [2]



Of course then there is the infamous sacking of Hindu temples. Then again the objective here was never to negate the exploits of Mahmud Ghaznavi in India, but the underlying point here is forced conversions in Punjab to which we find no reference and the service of Hindus in the upper echelon of Ghaznavid state machinery & Muhammad Bin Qasim’s administration only prove that there was no systemic attempt at forcing Islam on non-Muslims. [2]

Another thing to add is that the non-Muslim involvement in state affairs only grew with subsequent rulers, for example at one point the Grand Vizier of Mughal Empire was a Punjabi Hindu by the name Rai Todal Mal during Akbar’s reign, unarguably the peak of Mughals.



If we look at entire Hindustan the overwhelming majority is still non-Muslim, it was the basis of demanding Pakistan as a way to prevent living under a Hindu majority. As mentioned earlier if conversions were forced then surely states like Bihar would be Muslim majority considering that is where all these Muslim rulers based themselves. In Punjab specifically, in 1941 census just over half (53.2%) of Punjab’s population was Muslim, Hindus at 29.1% and Sikhs at just 14.9%. Yet previously in 1881 the census recorded Muslims at 47.6%, Hindus at 43.8% and Sikhs at 8.2%. [3]. And according to this same 1881 census half of Jatt population did not even convert to Islam even after a thousand plus years of the Religion’s presence in Punjab. [4] [4]

Process of Conversions in Punjab:



One of the main issues with the argument of Muslims converting to Islam forcibly is that Punjab has always remained a periphery territory for Delhi based Central Asian Muslim rulers where this supposed forced Islamization were to occur. Wouldn’t places like Uttar Pradesh be majority Muslim given the duration of Islamic rule in Hindustan? Yet Interior Indian remained overwhelmingly non-Muslim. Bengal is another example of a periphery territory with a substantive Muslim populat



So, if it wasn’t the fear of the sword then what was it which lead to the Islamization of Punjab? The answer according to scholar Richard Eaton are shrines built on gravesite of Sufi saints, which operated as an institution. Prominent ones being in Taunsa, Makhad, Siyal Sharif, Sharqpur and of course Lahore which were located near the great rivers of Punjab whose dawah activities would bring Punjabis to Islam. Beyond the urban areas during dry seasons the nomads who were mostly Jats would bring their animals to the river areas, which would then have them rub shoulders with urban folk and their new faith. It is important to note, Jats were not Hin



As stated these shrines were an institution on their own, which connected the various tribes to the center in Delhi. Ghazi Malik who went on to found the Tughluq state and became known as Giyasuddin Tughluq was a regular at Pakpattan shrine during his days as a Dipalpur governor for Khaljis, where he was told by the diwan that his descendants will rule India, which of course became a reality. The two battles which lead to the formulation of Tughlaq dynasty had a significant presence & role of Khokhars, whether the common denominator was the Pakpattan shrine is a question I cant answer for sure. State patronage would follow and shrine keepers were even honored with robes and even employed in to imperial service. dus.ion.ial service.

Khokhars, Bhattis, Wattus & Siyals all claim to have been converted during Baba Farid’s (1173-1266) time & as mentioned all were willing to raise an army at the call of the shrine’s diwan [5]. The marriage alliances between clans and shrine keepers only strengthened this relationship, the great Punjabi rebel Jasrath Khokhar himself was father in law to Shaykh Faizullah of Pakpattan shrine according to a 16th century book, Jawahir-i-Faridi. [5]. The process of conversions was gradual and took a few centuries to complete, but its clear Islam had been present in Punjab well before even the Mughals had set foot & more or less the major tribes in Punjab had already converted.

Do they call themselves as descendents of Mughals , Turks , Arabs or Afghan today or not ? Do they try to follow their culture or not ? Do they accept that their ancestors were Hindus ?

 

[Maula Jatt]

Do they call themselves as descendents of Mughals , Turks , Arabs or Afghan today or not ? Do they try to follow their culture or not ? Do they accept that their ancestors were Hindus ?

Gave a whole essay but this your response LoL

 

[Tomtheguy]

Gave a whole essay but this your response LoL

That's ur individual analysis ,i have seen guys with surname rathore claiming to be Afghani descendants

 

[.King.]

That's correct, what's common is the bond that cannot be broken even by a genocide...

Pakistan/Muslim punjabis are a unique group in the history of the world, were massacred, ethnically cleansed and genocided by their ethnic punjabi sikh brethern merely 70 odd years ago, yet their affinity and admiration for their tormentors never dies, such is the durability of ethnic bonds.

During the Sikha shahi, if a Sikh saw a Muslim punjabi and stopped him and made him carry him on his back as a mule, the Sikh had the legal right to do so and yet the Punjabi Muslim endured and never lost the love of their Sikh masters.

No wonder this region never resisted any foreign invasion.

Whitewashing on another level.

Are you seriously going to try and pretend there was no massacre of Sikhs by muslims on your side? Indeed, now Punjab in Pakistan has minuscule number of Sikhs. Genocide is what Pakistan has done, dont try to push false narratives.

 

[Tomtheguy]

Pakistani Punjabis don't claim foreign ancestry

So their is a difference in mentality of Pakistani Punjabi and other Pakistanis ? U mean others have some insecurity ? Can u explain in detail please

 

[Progressive1]

Indian Punjab has very different trajectory , they are basically fighting for their survival of cultural and religious cultural idenitites(Hindutva is trying to make Sikhism as just martial hinduism) , while pakistani punjabis have to be very flexible and uplift other smaller ethnicities to form a ethnically seamless overall pakistani idenity ,they simply cant afford to put their ethnicity first.
I find it funny when some people say Pakistani punjabis should learn from sikhs how to be proud and all , but reality is that Pakistani punjabis cant simply afford that type of ethnic bombast as it would be disastrous for our federation. The very villian of indian Punjabi folklore is Afghan (in past only used for Pashtuns) , which is your second largest ethnic group, so you get the drift.

I must say Pakistani Punjabis have done a remarkable job in transitioning from ethnically rigid group to one showing flexibility to accomodate in a Pakistani idenitity.

 

[Tomtheguy]

I said Punjabis because this thread is about Punjab

But mostly Pakistani Punjabi are online , representation from other part is too low ,and on this forum only u can find few who claim Arab ancestors

 

[Tomtheguy]

Go to some big Pakistani Facebook group and ask them how many of them think their ancestors were Arabs turks etc

Or u could just look at usernames Here , what does hyderabadi Arab mean ?

 

[Progressive1]

Or u could just look at usernames Here , what does hyderabadi Arab mean ?

hyderabadi arab mean arab for hyderabad deccan india

Hyderabadi Muslims - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org