Indian Navy News & Discussions

[klub]

Can you think of anything better than F-35 out there?

F35 is good but in order of ranking as of now of 5th gen fighters :

1. F22
2. PAKFA/FGFA
3. F35
4. J20
5. ?

 

[Black Widow]

Americans can built whole new carrier in this duration

Even after making 50+ Carriers , USN took 7+ years to make Ford Class SuperCarrier.. What does it means???


It means "Making ACC is not piece of cake"

 

[Sergi]

How effective is this?? @Abingdonboy @sancho @Capt.Popeye @Sergi

I don't know anything about it. May be
@Abingdonboy @sancho @Capt.Popeye @Gessler @S-DUCT

 

[kurup]

If I am right, our first carrier INS Vikrant which was used in 1965, 1971 wars was CATOBAR.

Yes , INS Vikrant was a CATOBAR carrier , although a small one at 20,000 tons full load .

 

[S-DUCT]

@Sergi
Sorry bro,i also don't know anything about its effectiveness.
BTW @Penguin can help us here.

 

[kaykay]

Got this link on this.
PK-2 SHIPBORNE DECOY DISPENSING SYSTEM | Russian Military Analysis

 

[Gessler]

Can you think of anything better than F-35 out there?

Yes, PAK-FA.

And even J-20.

 

[IND151]

IAC 1

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yes, PAK-FA.

And even J-20.

The J-20- a compelty unproven aircraft built by a nation that has not at all displayed the know how to produce a VLO aircraft?

I wouldn't be so sure sir.

If we are going for EMALS or CATAPULT thn F-18 is on the air wing is near reality. But if you dont want F-18 then you have to feed uncle sam with something else that is of important stratgic value to them.

I don't see it as being as clear cut as that. But if it is so bror sure the F-35C is the way to go with a few Growlers thrown in.

Even the "Silent hornets" are not what the IN needs looking beyond 2022-5.

 

[Dillinger]

The J-20- a compelty unproven aircraft built by a nation that has not at all displayed the know how to produce a VLO aircraft?

I wouldn't be so sure sir.




I don't see it as being as clear cut as that. But if it is so bror sure the F-35C is the way to go with a few Growlers thrown in.

Even the "Silent hornets" are not what the IN needs looking beyond 2022-5.

I have been thinking about this. The next carrier, PSK seems dead set that it will be nuclear, I'm cool with that but the thing is that if we go for CATOBAR then that means no Fulcrums. But I really want the IN to get past the Kamov AEWs. Now the way we cut this, IF we opt for the V-22 AEWs then those can operate off even the IAC-1. On the other hand the V-22 is not pressurized, has a low flight ceiling and I mean low compared to any fixed wing AEW platform, same with its relatively low combat radius and thus lesser on station time. IF we must go CATOBAR then nothing short of the E-2 AEW makes sense- with our own AEW array obvio or IF I May be permitted to dream for a moment a S-3 AEW variant (those beauties could outperform an E-2, and a larger carrier can accommodate at least 5 of those- they've served as carrier launched ASW platforms and even carrier based aerial refueling platforms- giving a carrier major organic capabilities. But they are out of production, the AEW variant was never tested and they are in storage although the frames have good bit of their TTSL left). Anyway, a CATOBAR config gets a MUCH better AEW&C platform but then we need to hunt for a new primary component for the carrier air wing- that too for just one carrier since whatever comes after IAC-2 (Vishal) will take at least another 7 years or so. MRO and logistics nightmare. A hybrid system perhaps- CATOBAR for the AEW and ramp for the fighters?

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have been thinking about this, the next carrier- PSK seems dead set that it will be nuclear- I'm cool with that- thing is if we go for CATOBAR that means no Fulcrums- but I really want the IN to get past the Kamov AEWs. Now the way we cut this, IF we opt for the V-22 AEWs then those can operate off even the IAC-1. On the other hand the V-22 is not pressurized, has a low flight ceiling and I mean low compared to any fixed wing AEW platform, same with its relatively low combat radius and thus lesser on station time. IF we must go CATOBAR then nothing short of the E-2 AEW makes sense- with our own AEW array obvio or IF I May be permitted to dream for a moment (a S-3 AEW variant- those beauties could outperform an E-2, and a larger carrier can accommodate at least 5 of those- they've served as carrier launched ASW platforms and even carrier based aerial refueling platforms- giving a carrier major organic capabilities. But they are out of production, he AEW variant was never tested and they are in storage although the frames have good bit of their TTSL left). Anyway, a CTOBAR config gets a MUCH better AEW&C platform but then we need to hunt for a new primary component for the carrier air wing- that too for just one carrier since whatever comes after IAC-2 (Vishal) will take at least another 7 years or so. MRO and logistics nightmare. A hybrid system perhaps- CATOBAR for the AEW and ramp for the fighters?

Everything you and PSK have said is true (on the whole!). I am still unconvinced the IAC-2 will be N-powered and would ideally like it not to be just to save on the inevitable delays that WILL come with the nuclear power plant. Give them some time and let the IAC-3 be the first n-powered ACC in India's history.


Wrt the air wing- unless the IN is willing to shell out on everything then compromises and trade offs are going to have to be made. The AEW issue must be one of the most obvious- now whilst the V-22 AEW would be a great platform as it could be based off the IAC-1, VIKY and any future ACCs the IN received as- like you said- the KA-31s are simply not up to the job looking beyond, say, 2020. But the cons are that the IN would have to, most likely, pay a huge a lint if the devlopment costs- just as it did with the Mig-29K/KUBs. Also, when talking about performance alone, the E-2D is the better AEW system and is available off the shelf, ready to be delvered withing a short soan tk the IN and has already been cleared for export to India by the USG. However this option is not there for the IAC-1 or VIKY who would have to stick to the less than ideal Ka-31s. There is also the fact it has been claimed the V-22 can be adapted to be used as an AAR and even ASW platform. Again, this would most likely only come on the IN's dime.


Now unless the IN is willing to pay for both the devlopment and unit costs of the V-22 and the E-2D as well as all their respective associated training, spares and logistics costs then someone somewhere is going to have to make a tricky decision.


Maybe the V-22 AEW is the best option- all told. I really couldn't say.


If we're talking about packages ie the air wing being of US origin in exchange for the release of EMALS tech then the US isn't the worst place to go- its much better than, say, the Russians saying the same. The chances are much of the air wing were going to be of US origin anyway. An ideal airwing from the US would look like(IMHO):

FireScout UAS(we already know the IN is interested)

S-70B (again we know the IN is very interested in this paktformnand in fact the S-70B is the front runner in the IN's ongoing N-MRH contest)

Naval a/c (if it has to be part of the deal)- F-35C


AEW platform (be it V-22 of E-2D).

Coupled with the MF-STARs/Barak-2/ RAN-40L of the ACC, P-15A and P-17A escorts as well has VL Bhramos.
Now that is some CBG!

 

[faithfulguy]

F35 is good but in order of ranking as of now of 5th gen fighters :

1. F22
2. PAKFA/FGFA
3. F35
4. J20
5. ?

We don't know about PAKFA and J-20. Can't rank them until they are tested and verified.

Yes, PAK-FA.

And even J-20.

These planes do not even have its parts finalized. By the time these planes are ready, then F-35 would have block 2 or block 3 ready. Next.

 

[Dillinger]

@Abingdonboy Ok. I am going to put in a write up with my amateur thoughts on the prospective CBG constituents- not a wish list but all possibilities with their pros and cons (to the best of my knowledge).

BUT before that I must indulge myself.

That's the baby I want for the IN. Same AC, served as a carrier-borne ASW ac, naval STAR ac (prototype was developed- one singular ac kitted out for the job and put into ops- was promising but shelved along with the rest) through an under-wing STAR pod, ELINT ac, air tanker ac (same case as the ISTAR variant), proposed AEW variant (was promising, the Brits still have it on their radar or so the word goes in a hush hush way along with the V-22 TOSS even though its been been benched by the USN and put in storage). Easy tech, nothing world beating, but as far as a "modular" platform goes its GOLD. Will also upload a write up on why the USN found it to be better even than the P-3 wrt ASW ops for quite sometime along with some trade-offs too (not too many). As I said- its an easy catch but will require investment for either license production OR somehow wrangling out the blue prints and then integration/testing of AEW gear (the latter is FAR More complex than is generally thought to be and a major nightmare without the OEM helping out in a BIG way- but all of that is not outside the realm of possibility theoretically.)


@Capt.Popeye What do you think Capt., stupid idea if we're looking at them to go on all carriers from IAC-2 onward- highly speculative of-course?

 

[SRP]

INS Kolkata postponed till early next year???

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy Ok. I am going to put in a write up with my amateur thoughts on the prospective CBG constituents- not a wish list but all possibilities with their pros and cons (to the best of my knowledge).

BUT before that I must indulge myself.

That's the baby I want for the IN. Same AC, served as a carrier-borne ASW ac, naval STAR ac (prototype was developed- one singular ac kitted out for the job and put into ops- was promising but shelved along with the rest) through an under-wing STAR pod, ELINT ac, air tanker ac (same case as the ISTAR variant), proposed AEW variant (was promising, the Brits still have it on their radar or so the word goes in a hush hush way along with the V-22 TOSS even though its been been benched by the USN and put in storage). Easy tech, nothing world beating, but as far as a "modular" platform goes its GOLD. Will also upload a write up on why the USN found it to be better even than the P-3 wrt ASW ops for quite sometime along with some trade-offs too (not too many). As I said- its an easy catch but will require investment for either license production OR somehow wrangling out the blue prints and then integration/testing of AEW gear (the latter is FAR More complex than is generally thought to be and a major nightmare without the OEM helping out in a BIG way- but all of that is not outside the realm of possibility theoretically.)


@Capt.Popeye What do you think Capt., stupid idea if we're looking at them to go on all carriers from IAC-2 onward- highly speculative of-course?

But @Dillinger why go for this turbofan powered outdated peice of hardware??


These days you have multirole platforms that can do most of the above. The Mig-29Ks can do a lot of what your were saying as well as being incredibly exceptional strike a/ c and dogfighters. No doubt the future a/c the IN will get ie RAFALE-M/ F-35 C/N-FGFA etc will all be just as good and better in many ways.