Indian MoD approves buy of 6 Airbus A330 for Indian AWACS

[sancho]

Going by DRDO's history and failure of its “Project Guardian/Airawat" in the past...I hope this developmental project is a success.

Success or not is one thing, but we have a huge gap in what the forces actually needs and what DRDO wants to develop. Several high ranking IN and IAF officials keep saying that for years and I really hoped Parrikar would show the appropriate actions to his words, to make DRDO finally good and efficient. It's simply nuts to complain about major projects of DRDO (including he current AWACS project) that are delayed and then grant them another projects. That's like telling your kids too many sweet are not good for the teeth, but buying them some at the next supermarket.

Did you just post your 1st smiley on the forum???

LOL, not at all, but there is not much to laugh or celebrate these days wrt Indian defence. Modernisation slowed down, final approval of major deals still pending, DRDO is a constant disappointment and I am waiting since 2012 for Dassault to celebrate the Rafale deal.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Good news,for India,and for Airbus.

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Very welcome news indeed.

AESA may be.... But 1 more platform........

Of course it will be AESA, it will be close to the EL/W-2090's performance level.

Lol, Parrikar is following the strange way of the PM, first publicaly bashing DRDO to work better and showing a much needed strict approach and making a U-TURN an awarding them again. Disappointing! So much for not take too many projects.

I'm pleased he approved this for sure, I still don't get where you are coming from with respect to bashing the DRDO's attempt to make a Phalcon-like AWACS in-house mated with a Western (non-Russian) airframe, this is on going to be a huge boost for the IAF and a great product to have made in India.

However @sancho sir I'm sure you would agree Mr Parrikar is acting rather inconsistently- the Avro replacement/C-295 deal has been stalled for months under his stewardship for being a single-vendor situation and yet this deal gets cleared despite being a single-vendor situation itself? I'm not questioning his clearing of this deal (he should be commended for that) but I am wondering why he wouldn't apply this same policy to the Avro replacement which is pressing itself.


Anyway, at least he is finally clearing deals and this move pretty much guarantees the A330 MRTT is going to be ordered by the IAF shortly.

It doesn't matter how many A330s flying in India in airlines, but for IAF it's the 3rd AWACS platform,

As @Capt.Popeye pointed out the MRO facilities will be in India itself as is so the maintenance issues will be negligible for the IAF as compared to the IL-76s/A-50s that are only operated by the IAF in India and if you think about it, within a decade, with the IL-76's retirement, the IAF will be in a position where it is having to provide MRO support for just 3-5 airframes (the A-50s) this is a far more troublesome issue. Let's not forget the IAF will also be getting 12+ A330 MRTTs (and the IN looking at 4-6 for themselves) so there will be substantial investment in training, spares, infrastructure etc for this type by the IAF anyway.

And nobody cares, because that doesn't reduce the logistical burden withing IAF, that has to operate 3 different aircrafts, with 3 different radar systems, 3 different types of internal systems, needs to train pilots for 3 different types of Aircrafts, needs to train ground crews for 3 different types of aircrafts, that are operated at IAF air bases not civil airports... So it's not about the maintenance or regular checks, but the operational service on a day to day base that will be streched by adding another different type of platform and radar system.

Whilst this is true I fell as though you are overplaying the downsides of this and underestimating the positives. The A330-based AWACS (India) will have commonality with the IAF's A330 MRTTs and potentially the Air India One replacement which could be the A330 not to mention all the A330s operated by India's airlines and other regional airlines who will use India's A330 MRO facilities.



All in all good news and a good decision.

 

[sancho]

Sancho saab, we can't wish away the failures. DRDO performs when they are under a tight watch.

We can't wish them away, but help to improve DRDO to make less! That's why DRDO needs more checks and far more restrictions and guidance from MoD and why I liked that Parrikar for example sacked former DRDO Chief Chander (even though the way it was done wasn't good), because of the lack of performance as the man in charge, not to mention that I welcomed the stop of Kaveri engine project (although it's a shame for the country by DRDO), because there was no point in a project that has no hope to be useful for any application.
So he should have followed that way and stopped all new projects (except of those, that the forces insist on), until DRDO has delivered those that are pending for years and proved themselfs. That would had put more pressure on DRDO to work better and be more efficient, just as it had given Parrikas words more meaning.

 

[sancho]

Whilst this is true I fell as though you are overplaying the downsides of this and underestimating the positives. The A330-based AWACS (India) will have commonality with the IAF's A330 MRTTs

And how does that help the IAF AWACS fleet? Will an A50 pilot or the ground crew on an airbase that operates the A50, be able to operate or repair the A330? Of course not, because they are not trained and most likely not even equipped to do so. Just as the current burden of IAF operating too many different types of fighters is a big problem for their operations, since you can't operate a Mirage 2000 from an Mig 29 airbase.
So adding more types, requires more training and logistics for IAFs every day use in the same operations and when IAF is focusing on reducing that for the fighters and were against 2 types of basic trainers as well, do you really think they like having 3 different types of AWACS?

 

[uparyupari]

However @sancho sir I'm sure you would agree Mr Parrikar is acting rather inconsistently- the Avro replacement/C-295 deal has been stalled for months under his stewardship for being a single-vendor situation and yet this deal gets cleared despite being a single-vendor situation itself? I'm not questioning his clearing of this deal (he should be commended for that) but I am wondering why he wouldn't apply this same policy to the Avro replacement which is pressing itself.

Anyway, at least he is finally clearing deals and this move pretty much guarantees the A330 MRTT is going to be ordered by the IAF shortly.

Which is complete rubbish since Avro need not be replaced since they have residual life of around 80,000 hours and is used for VIP transport. Not to mention we have 59 of them and they fly for roughly 1 hr. every day.

What is the justification for "replacing" them ?

 

[sancho]

He has done exactly that. He has asked DRDO to stop taking new projects. I read somewhere. Just a few days back.

That's the point, asking them that and at the same time granting them this new project is!

 

[Levina]

Success or not is one thing, but we have a huge gap in what the forces actually needs and what DRDO wants to develop. Several high ranking IN and IAF officials keep saying that for years and I really hoped Parrikar would show the appropriate actions to his words, to make DRDO finally good and efficient. It's simply nuts to complain about major projects of DRDO (including he current AWACS project) that are delayed and then grant them another projects. That's like telling your kids too many sweet are not good for the teeth, but buying them some at the next supermarket.

I am wondering what IAF has to say about it,the services were always against DRDO on this.

.
Airbus as reported is the only vendor that replied to DRDO's RFP, so is the only choice we have now, which logically leaves them in a good position to demand high costs.

Just when everybody expected a competition between Airbus A330 and the Boeing 767, boeing chose not to respond to RFP circulated. They realised that he complexity of the system requires an incremental development program to successfully manage the program risks and ensure an affordable program. But the RFP circulated didnt support that approach. Add to it that there's a large order backlog and KC-X production commitments that run till 2027 for boeing. So it was easy for Airbus.

 

[sancho]

I am wondering what IAF has to say about it,the services were always against DRDO on this.

If MoD takes the decision, they have no choice, just as they have to take the HTT40 trainers, because MoD backed a HAL project now, although IAF clearly was against it. And that's the same problem of logistical and training burden for IAF, operating 2 different types for the same role.

 

[SrNair]

As said, it's a pet project of DRDO for their ego, nothing else. Former Air Chief Browne stated that IAF don't want that project now, but wants more smaller AWACS ASAP, which however is not good enough for DRDO as it seems.
Airbus as reported is the only vendor that replied to DRDO's RFP, so is the only choice we have now, which logically leaves them in a good position to demand high costs. The A330 MRTT cost around $250 millions each, if I remember correctly, we paid around $300 millions for all 3 Embraer 145s and we badly need numbers!

.Then what is actually going on the head of theDRDO ?I have some doubt about this source. Perhaps they may be signed for tanker and this source twisted that in to AWACS.

As said, it's a pet project of DRDO for their ego, nothing else. Former Air Chief Browne stated that IAF don't want that project now, but wants more smaller AWACS ASAP, which however is not good enough for DRDO as it seems.
Airbus as reported is the only vendor that replied to DRDO's RFP, so is the only choice we have now, which logically leaves them in a good position to demand high costs. The A330 MRTT cost around $250 millions each, if I remember correctly, we paid around $300 millions for all 3 Embraer 145s and we badly need numbers!

.Then what is actually going on the head of theDRDO ?I have some doubt about this source. Perhaps they may be signed for tanker and this source twisted that in to AWACS.

 

[sancho]

surprise every body waiting for A330 as Tanker but they approve AWACS

This is just the DAC approval of the MoD, with further approval of FM needed, not to mention that fixing the deal will take more time, since it requires the vendor to comply to offset requirements too.
The A330 tanker deal, got DAC approval long ago, which shows that the hype around these approvals is not a big deal, unless you want to create the idea that you are doing things fast. The endresult however is dependent on finalising the deals and that actually takes the most time in India. The new government did improved the pace for getting DAC clearances, by improving bureaucracy, but still stuck at the finalising level (A330 tanker, Apache, Chinook, M777...).

I have some doubt about this source. Perhaps they may be signed for tanker and this source twisted that in to AWACS

It was reported earlier hat the DM will take about this project today, so low chance for any confusions.

 

[Echo_419]

And nobody cares, because that doesn't reduce the logistical burden withing IAF, that has to operate 3 different aircrafts, with 3 different radar systems, 3 different types of internal systems, needs to train pilots for 3 different types of Aircrafts, needs to train ground crews for 3 different types of aircrafts, that are operated at IAF air bases not civil airports... So it's not about the maintenance or regular checks, but the operational service on a day to day base that will be streched by adding another different type of platform and radar system.

I thought only airbus replied to thier RFP
So how could they use earlier aircrafts

 

[Anony]

And nobody cares, because that doesn't reduce the logistical burden withing IAF, that has to operate 3 different aircrafts, with 3 different radar systems, 3 different types of internal systems, needs to train pilots for 3 different types of Aircrafts, needs to train ground crews for 3 different types of aircrafts, that are operated at IAF air bases not civil airports... So it's not about the maintenance or regular checks, but the operational service on a day to day base that will be streched by adding another different type of platform and radar system.

Firstly, Airbus is the only available platform. No other company participated with their platform. And secondly, AEW&C project can be termed as the technology maturity and confidence built up stage to go ahead for AWACS project.

So there is no alternative. Instead of just randomly bashing on MOD & DRDO, and mentioning 3 different aircrafts, grasp the truth that no other alternative is present.

Moreover, AEW&C are done deals and work. By next year all the three aircraft will be operational with IAF. Both the Radome and the platform is certified. It is now the work of the production agency to carry the work further and the development team can go on for further R&D with AWACS. So MOD has taken the right call at the right time.

 

[Zoro]

@sancho

 

[Kinetic]

So its A330!

Great!!! the 10 meter radar means its huge. Should be able to detect at 600+ km.

 

[JohnyD]

couple of days back there was an advertisement in HindustanTimes by DRDO...they are recruiting scientists, exclusively for SC/ST and OBC people!!!

this is how DRDO works (or forced to work) and then we blame them and talk about private companies to play bigger role in defense!

India under DRDO has no future....at the most we can compete with BD and PAK!