Indian military's officer crisis- RESEARCH

[Indo-guy]

Capacity is being increased across the board.


Wrt the Indian officers "not delivering" this is a pretty unfounded allegation that doesn't seem to be anything more than personal opinion. No facts indicate this.

Do you have any figures of how many of those 600 trained are actually retained long term ....

know few from Military engineers services who dropped out at very first opportunity ....!!!

 

[jaibi]

Capacity is being increased across the board.


Wrt the Indian officers "not delivering" this is a pretty unfounded allegation that doesn't seem to be anything more than personal opinion. No facts indicate this.

The statements of the Indian chief contained within the article has him calling for conscription

 

[Indo-guy]

now u understand my frustration with anything public like drdo

On the flipside ....I am amazed at times, as to what keeps it going ...

 

[jaibi]

I can vouch for the fact that compared to the vacancies available...............number of ppl applying are just many times that

and this is not just limited to army,,,all the sections of society have same problem



is it same scenario in pakistan too dude,,,,seriously

A photocopy, yaar! That's why I was researching on the subject and stumbled on this article!

 

[he-man]

You are either kidding or dreaming ?

How much I wish you were correct ....


India has no Public health care system ! that is not just a statement ....but a fact !



We always have lots of plans right ....what do we do with those plans .....

we simply make plans only to trash them ....then we move to make grand new plans ....to be replaced by much more grand set of plans !!!

i will give u precise figures

undergraduate medical seats per year---------------45,000(5 lakh apply)

post graduate.......................................................12,000(1 lakh apply)

and we have a population of 131 crores

in USA

UG SEATS...............................12,000
PG SEATS.................................32,000

and they have a population one forth of ours

A photocopy, yaar! That's why I was researching on the subject and stumbled on this article!

niklo yaar yaha se..........seriously

 

[jaibi]

I don't think so. The suicide issue is rather separate to the officer intake issue. I'm happy to discuss both but I don't see how the two are linked.

The intake's not the issue Abing it is the output that's the issue and the dropoff due to early retirement, suicide and such is a part of that debate.

 

[he-man]

On the flipside ....I am amazed at times, as to what keeps it going ...

corruption,,what else!!

 

[Indo-guy]

Capacity is being increased across the board.


Wrt the Indian officers "not delivering" this is a pretty unfounded allegation that doesn't seem to be anything more than personal opinion. No facts indicate this.

I came across story of IAF officer being arrested for seeking rather paltry sum to give convenient spot in one of the Air show to Rafale respresntatives .....

what does this story speaks about ?

 

[jaibi]

i will give u precise figures

undergraduate medical seats per year---------------45,000(5 lakh apply)

post graduate.......................................................12,000(1 lakh apply)

and we have a population of 131 crores

in USA

UG SEATS...............................12,000
PG SEATS.................................32,000

and they have a population one forth of ours



niklo yaar yaha se..........seriously

Hahaha yaar all of my firends who went outside to study said that only Desi's know the pain and thus become best friends over there!

 

[Indo-guy]

corruption,,what else!!

No I did not say that sarcastically ....despite all nepotism and all the worsts of human psyche ....yet institutes like DRDO do deliver at times .....I wonder it must be result of unparalleled ,unmatched, selfless sacrifice of few ...that keeps such institutes going


we must not belittle contribution of handful of true patriots !!!

 

[he-man]

Hahaha yaar all of my firends who went outside to study said that only Desi's know the pain and thus become best friends over there!

seriously mate.....hum tap tap ke sona banenge

No I did not say that sarcastically ....despite all nepotism and all the worsts of human psyche ....yet institutes like DRDO do deliver at times .....I wonder it must be result of unparalleled ,unmatched, selfless sacrifice of few ...that keeps such institutes going


we must not belittle contribution of handful of true patriots !!!

Stop the reservation in higher institutions if u truly want progress....................there is 50% reservation in the seats i just wrote above!!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I can't seem to upload images please refer to the article for them.

@Abingdonboy the article is of 2010, I checked around the web, there seems to be no concrete policy as of now perhaps post elections?

@Capt.Popeye @Pak-one @haviZsultan

Hi @jaibi; welcome back after a long hiatus.

I did read through your post#1 (though I'm unable to see any of the graphics) as well as open the link. There are some misconceptions that I can see in some of the points that you have raised. People chasing jobs and/or Jobs chasing people is nothing new in India or for that matter any place. I do say that on the basis of my experiences with Training and HR/Recruitment in Service as well as Civvy Street.

There are some shortages that the Armed Forces in India lately but it is not unexpected. Now there are very many Professions/Vocations etc that are vying for the attention of young people.Quite different from what it was in our time. But also keep in mind, in the example being discussed, ie entrants to the Forces; the number of aspirants have not reduced over the years. Taking PR is nothing big: not everybody is going to be a General or reach Flag Rank. So some people must leave the system, it is a desired condition; make no mistake about that.

Then remember, that the Armed Forces in the Indian Subcontinental Region are in fact vestiges of an Imperial System and therefore quite unwieldy. In my opinion, a serious effort is required to re-structure and pare-down the strengths (of manpower at least). Cadre Reviews must be carried out for the purpose to acieve that in the most efficient manner possible.

One statement that you made in your post caught my eye, viz.

"India is achieving the technological advantages of a fully Information Age military yet perhaps because of the wider socio-cultural forces it's losing the essential building block of the military."

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ys-officer-crisis-research.html#ixzz2dwvHAShX

I do see an amusing contradiction contained within that. A modern Army that is well tecnology oriented becomes less dependent in some ways on having to maintain hordes of people. And are you suggesting that the Military is an essential building block of Society?
Most certainly not! Any society that considers the Military to be an essential building block of itself is a hollow, under-developed one; in short a "Bonsai Society". I will take no pride in being part of one such. The Military is only one functional part of a larger body called Society. In which other parts (no less important) have to be functional too.

You have said something about some connection with Elections and formulation of Policies. What is the connection?

These issues that the Military Estt. are facing is to my mind a good thing. It is forcing a rethink on many things now. For instance, the IN is gearing upto train their Officers as Technocrats to get a qualified in Technology. That is necessary, a specialist Gunnery Officer or Navigation Specialist must just not be able to understand Technology, but must be able to contribute in upgrading it. I believed that a Navigation Specialist CO of a Warship must be able to understand everything that either a Watch-Keeping EO or the Cdr EO of his ship is saying about the Propulsion Systems and their related issues. That process is underway. So the manpower available will be able to multi-task.

Large Pools of Manpower is not really the way forward, just as gargantuan Forces are not.
Do read up on how the huge Allied Forces had to be de-mobilised post WW2. I am familiar with what happened in the Indian Subcontinent as part of that mammoth exercise.

 

[Indo-guy]

Hi @jaibi; welcome back after a long hiatus.

I did read through your post#1 (though I'm unable to see any of the graphics) as well as open the link. There are some misconceptions that I can see in some of the points that you have raised. People chasing jobs and/or Jobs chasing people is nothing new in India or for that matter any place. I do say that on the basis of my experiences with Training and HR/Recruitment in Service as well as Civvy Street.

There are some shortages that the Armed Forces in India lately but it is not unexpected. Now there are very many Professions/Vocations etc that are vying for the attention of young people.Quite different from what it was in our time. But also keep in mind, in the example being discussed, ie entrants to the Forces; the number of aspirants have not reduced over the years. Taking PR is nothing big: not everybody is going to be a General or reach Flag Rank. So some people must leave the system, it is a desired condition; make no mistake about that.

Then remember, that the Armed Forces in the Indian Subcontinental Region are in fact vestiges of an Imperial System and therefore quite unwieldy. In my opinion, a serious effort is required to re-structure and pare-down the strengths (of manpower at least). Cadre Reviews must be carried out for the purpose to acieve that in the most efficient manner possible.

One statement that you made in your post caught my eye, viz.

"India is achieving the technological advantages of a fully Information Age military yet perhaps because of the wider socio-cultural forces it's losing the essential building block of the military."

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ys-officer-crisis-research.html#ixzz2dwvHAShX

I do see an amusing contradiction contained within that. A modern Army that is well tecnology oriented becomes less dependent in some ways on having to maintain hordes of people. And are you suggesting that the Military is an essential building block of Society?
Most certainly not! Any society that considers the Military to be an essential building block of itself is a hollow, under-developed one; in short a "Bonsai Society". I will take no pride in being part of one such. The Military is only one functional part of a larger body called Society. In which other parts (no less important) have to be functional too.

You have said something about some connection with Elections and formulation of Policies. What is the connection?

These issues that the Military Estt. are facing is to my mind a good thing. It is forcing a rethink on many things now. For instance, the IN is gearing upto train their Officers as Technocrats to get a qualified in Technology. That is necessary, a specialist Gunnery Officer or Navigation Specialist must just not be able to understand Technology, but must be able to contribute in upgrading it. I believed that a Navigation Specialist CO of a Warship must be able to understand everything that either a Watch-Keeping EO or the Cdr EO of his ship is saying about the Propulsion Systems and their related issues. That process is underway. So the manpower available will be able to multi-task.

Large Pools of Manpower is not really the way forward, just as gargantuan Forces are not.
Do read up on how the huge Allied Forces had to be de-mobilised post WW2. I am familiar with what happened in the Indian Subcontinent as part of that mammoth exercise.

@Capt.Popeye Thanks Sir for your wonderful post that brings some balance to this discussion by naïve people like me . Immensely enjoyed reading and trying to understand your post( as usual ) .

I hope our policy makers will take timely measures to correct imbalances...

Every system needs to change with time and be able to cope with the demands of those changes ....the bigger the institution ...
greater the inertia to change and worse the delay in incorporating those changes !

I just hope our habit to wake up at last moment shouldn't cost us in big way !!!

 

[livingdead]

seriously mate.....hum tap tap ke sona banenge



Stop the reservation in higher institutions if u truly want progress....................there is 50% reservation in the seats i just wrote above!!

its not reservation.. there is no culture of rewarding good people there.. which is why even good people lose their enthusiasm after few years.

Even average people can do brilliant job if you motivate them

 

[jaibi]

Hi @jaibi; welcome back after a long hiatus.

I did read through your post#1 (though I'm unable to see any of the graphics) as well as open the link. There are some misconceptions that I can see in some of the points that you have raised. People chasing jobs and/or Jobs chasing people is nothing new in India or for that matter any place. I do say that on the basis of my experiences with Training and HR/Recruitment in Service as well as Civvy Street.

There are some shortages that the Armed Forces in India lately but it is not unexpected. Now there are very many Professions/Vocations etc that are vying for the attention of young people.Quite different from what it was in our time. But also keep in mind, in the example being discussed, ie entrants to the Forces; the number of aspirants have not reduced over the years. Taking PR is nothing big: not everybody is going to be a General or reach Flag Rank. So some people must leave the system, it is a desired condition; make no mistake about that.

Then remember, that the Armed Forces in the Indian Subcontinental Region are in fact vestiges of an Imperial System and therefore quite unwieldy. In my opinion, a serious effort is required to re-structure and pare-down the strengths (of manpower at least). Cadre Reviews must be carried out for the purpose to acieve that in the most efficient manner possible.

One statement that you made in your post caught my eye, viz.

"India is achieving the technological advantages of a fully Information Age military yet perhaps because of the wider socio-cultural forces it's losing the essential building block of the military."

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ys-officer-crisis-research.html#ixzz2dwvHAShX

I do see an amusing contradiction contained within that. A modern Army that is well tecnology oriented becomes less dependent in some ways on having to maintain hordes of people. And are you suggesting that the Military is an essential building block of Society?
Most certainly not! Any society that considers the Military to be an essential building block of itself is a hollow, under-developed one; in short a "Bonsai Society". I will take no pride in being part of one such. The Military is only one functional part of a larger body called Society. In which other parts (no less important) have to be functional too.

You have said something about some connection with Elections and formulation of Policies. What is the connection?

These issues that the Military Estt. are facing is to my mind a good thing. It is forcing a rethink on many things now. For instance, the IN is gearing upto train their Officers as Technocrats to get a qualified in Technology. That is necessary, a specialist Gunnery Officer or Navigation Specialist must just not be able to understand Technology, but must be able to contribute in upgrading it. I believed that a Navigation Specialist CO of a Warship must be able to understand everything that either a Watch-Keeping EO or the Cdr EO of his ship is saying about the Propulsion Systems and their related issues. That process is underway. So the manpower available will be able to multi-task.

Large Pools of Manpower is not really the way forward, just as gargantuan Forces are not.
Do read up on how the huge Allied Forces had to be de-mobilised post WW2. I am familiar with what happened in the Indian Subcontinent as part of that mammoth exercise.

As always Capt. I appreciate your indulgence, I'll repost the link here please see if you can download the article here An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie.

Now my post really becomes relevant if you were to read the article as it expounds on that. The shortage as the article argues is not just in the number of people that apply but the a) quality of officers that they become after going through the process of becoming an officer which the author links to the institution of military trainaing b) the attritional damage to the officer class inducted during the natural life of their career (early retirement, suicides etc.,) c) the stressing of the officer that leads to a compromised military in terms of management and execution.

Secondly, it's perhaps our bane to consider a discussion on the army as a discussion on the military however, the branches of the military that focus on quality over quantity, the IAF, comes second to the army in terms of suicides and if I were to apply a Chi-Square analysis the rate might be higher! So the number of people that apply and make thrrough to the respective ranks is not the issue it's exploring the factors that's giving rise to such a social phenomena in the military (which to me, as a psych man, is important)

Thirdly, my argument regarding the building block of the military was not about its role in the society but the officer's role in the militray, no machine can replace an officer. See, India is engaged in counterinsurgency ops and thus must retain a highly trained officer who will manage his unit as well as the affected population well and it is important to note that Indian counterinsurgency programmes are in territories that constitute itself (like Pakistan, unlike the USA) thus technology will one day replace the type of military offical needed but that time's not here right now.

Regards.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/ (SPACE) 00856401.2010.520653

Please remove the (SPACE) from the above link to access the article