Indian Arihant a rip off Russian sub?

[Obambam]

Actually, both countries are still way behind the west, especially America, when it comes to over all technology. China still has a long way to go before it catch up to Russia and Europe before it can think about matching the US. However, with its capital, infrastructure and the single minded authoritarian government, I can see it catching up to the Europeans and Russians soon and maybe America in 50+ years.

As for India, it need to focus on industrial and infrastructure development. Until this is done, India will never have the basis of a manufacturing industry to support the military industrial complex. It should forget about relying only on service and IT and try to grow like any country in history did.

If you read carefully what I said, then you would have noticed that I said China are on par if not better than the west on certain aspects. I did not say overall better. China is still a developing nation afterall

 

[Obambam]

are u saying that ur Catching up to the West is not possible? UR whole statement contradicts ur thesis.
Or are u saying that India cant become Into a manufacturing hub? OR did Chinas manufacturing was gifted by aliens?

India is already half way there and will get closer. As economies grow there economies go through another "phenomenon"*sigh* called Economic saturation where Countries to grow at 9 to 10% tend to overheat when there economic base value Increases and cant sustain it. All developed economies tend to go through that phase.

So ur theory that China will keep growing more than its competitor toward Infinity is baseless. Theres a reason why countries on the behind tend to grow faster. It may take India 30 more years to match china but well get there

Where did I say catching up with the west is not possible? and where did I say China will keep growing towards infinity?

If you have read carefully, then you would have picked up on me saying that a lot depends on the country's leadership, economy and its resources. Can the west sustain its economical growth to further its developments? I think over time China will catch up and there's no doubting it.
I didn't say India will not get to where China is now, so don't put your own words into my mouth Mr. Respectable.

China, just like anyone else is still and will always be developing and we are not idling ourselves for India to catch up. Moreover we have the resources to further spearhead our developments. So whether or not India will get to where we are not would depend on your country's leadership, economy and resource allocation and management. There is a difference in dreaming to get there and actually doing it. But I do hope to see India get to where we are today in 30 or less years time. It is for the better of Asia and the people currently still suffering in and around India.

 

[faithfulguy]

Where did I say catching up with the west is not possible? and where did I say China will keep growing towards infinity?

If you have read carefully, then you would have picked up on me saying that a lot depends on the country's leadership, economy and its resources. Can the west sustain its economical growth to further its developments? I think over time China will catch up and there's no doubting it.
I didn't say India will not get to where China is now, so don't put your own words into my mouth Mr. Respectable.

China, just like anyone else is still and will always be developing and we are not idling ourselves for India to catch up. Moreover we have the resources to further spearhead our developments. So whether or not India will get to where we are not would depend on your country's leadership, economy and resource allocation and management. There is a difference in dreaming to get there and actually doing it. But I do hope to see India get to where we are today in 30 or less years time. It is for the better of Asia and the people currently still suffering in and around India.

A lot of growth in China come from businesses in Taiwan and Hong Kong. As a result, a lot of exports from China use to be exported from Taiwan or HK. Taiwanese invested in China because of similar culture. This is what China had to boost its economy but India do not and will not have.

 

[MilSpec]

@Sandy_3126




I wouldn’t make tall claims, but I am very very prudent and methodical person. Joking apart, look at my posts, until now I have systematically taken care of every things thrown at me in 3 different threads of “Indigenous” projects by the Indians.

You are more than welcome to provide proofs that it is indigenous design, until now, every thing I have read proves very clearly it is based on Charlie II, decommissioned 70’s technology by the Russians.

This was proven from the fact that Indian hired a Charlie II for three years to gain experience.

As you mentioned you had been an Engineer on SU30MKI, please tell me if you have to train a pilot on a SU30MKI, would you send him to a Mirage 2000 or F16, or to a twin turbo jet? General training is done on usual general trainers. But for actual product training on specific aircraft, two seat trainer versions of the specified aircraft are used for pilot’s training.



With due respect to you, until now what I have heard are tall claims of indigenous products but those claims failed to meet the required proofs. I can repeat your own words, your claim is disingenuous, you are not providing me any facts or proofs, what you are saying, look it is classified so we don’t know. Doesn’t it means what you saying could only be at best described as pure speculations?
Do you want me to believe in pure speculations? Or do you want me to believe in tall claims like your scientists, trust us; we say it is indigenous, so it is. Even though the proofs shows otherwise. But what are few physical proofs compare to tall claims of Indian? They said it, so world better believe it. Proofs? Nah we don’t work on that prudent method acceptable in the world. We say, you believe.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but you are saying nothing better than what your other fellow Indians had been saying post after post.

I will ignore your other comments, I am not going to boost either, but I am sufficiently educated. I leave it to that.

Fact remains, until now, the design is nothing more than a discontinued 70’s Russian technology Charlie II. We know for testing other components Russian help was obtained from the start by the Indians.

Until anyone of you provide conclusive proofs of what other components are and if they are indigenous, what you have are speculations and your insistence.
I don’t work on that principle, show me the colour of the money or hold your peace, is my Moto.

I am pretty sure if I will not be able to explain you the regime of design of complex assemblies so I would pose you a few questions, No need to answer them, just pose these questions to yourself and see if my rhetoric is flawed.

1) What are the parameters for design of pressure vessel,

2) can you successfully build a Submarine Hull by studying leased vehicle,

3) Can you successfully design a Nuclear propulsion for a submarine by operating one without dis-assembly and re-engineering every compononent ground up

4) Can India be willing to upset its main defense partner by infringing on intellectual property of Russia.

5) Simplest question, can you exactly formulate the hull alloy and the treatment process by any non destructive means.

think about it in your spare time.

Next is understanding the surface preparation for the welding as it cannot be evaluated using any NDM process after the surface has ready been fused.
Apart from the structure of the Submarine, think about the propulsion system. Is it even possible in a fantasy to understand and replicate the nuclear propulsion system without decommissioning the Submarine. Just to understand and re-engineer an simple I.C Engine and to understand its design intent, we have to tear it apart and understand each and every component. You expect that our engineers could just look at a commissioned Navy SUB and understand and successfully re-engineer all the propulsion components of the same.

The reason why I stress that this is an individual effort is because, I know this for a fact that kirloskar Pnuematics Co Ltd, had specifically designed a compact high power compressor for use on the Nuclear sub under development in 2006, I was not aware of the name of the sub at that time.I am not sure if it ever got incorporated on the Sub.



During my masters, my grad research assistantship was to study CFD parameters for different hull designs for building scaled prototypes. To my knowledge it will be impossible to replicate a Hull of submarine without the ground up knowledge of design and the materials used as per the design intent. It will be the most foolish idea to suggest that some one can copy some design and come up with a submarine without the original designers passing on the designs. As far as you suggestion there is no proof of whatsoever that the Hulls anything similar to Charlie class II Hull. In the free domain there is no information on Arihant, just speculations...

You claim that, just because Indian Navy leased a Charlie class sub from Russia, means that India has copied the design. You keep asking me for proof to sugest otherwise, My question what "otherwise" It is just you who is claiming it to be a rip off of charlie class II. Even the Russians haven't protested about the design, who by all means are very shrewd businessmen. It will be impossible for india to manufacture a russian sub without Russian consent or approval.

If re-engineering was such a piece of cake, wouldn't we be seeing 500 F16's flying with "made in pakistan" tag on them ???
And if your logic is extended to rather simpler system, probably you can build a Mercedes SLR at home, just by leaasing one .. right??

 

[Splurgenxs]

Where did I say catching up with the west is not possible? and where did I say China will keep growing towards infinity?

If you have read carefully, then you would have picked up on me saying that a lot depends on the country's leadership, economy and its resources. Can the west sustain its economical growth to further its developments? I think over time China will catch up and there's no doubting it.
I didn't say India will not get to where China is now, so don't put your own words into my mouth Mr. Respectable.

China, just like anyone else is still and will always be developing and we are not idling ourselves for India to catch up. Moreover we have the resources to further spearhead our developments. So whether or not India will get to where we are not would depend on your country's leadership, economy and resource allocation and management. There is a difference in dreaming to get there and actually doing it. But I do hope to see India get to where we are today in 30 or less years time. It is for the better of Asia and the people currently still suffering in and around India.

"Catching up" doesn't mean to overcome the state of china economy now but , where China will be in the next 30 years.

And since assumptions are rushing high here ,
this is what Economic forecast look like fr the next 20 years (just came in)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/110537-india-gallop-9-economic-growth-average-next-20-years-5.html#post1787250

 

[crankthatskunk]

@Sandy_3126

1)What are the parameters for design of pressure vessel,
2) can you successfully build a Submarine Hull by studying leased vehicle

Simple answer to both of your question is no you can not build a submarine by studying a leased vehicle, for the parameters for design you had the Russians on board from the day one.

Neither did I say the vehicle was leased for design I said it was leased for training of the crew. Do you have difficulty understanding plain English?

3)Can you successfully design a Nuclear propulsion for a submarine by operating one without dis-assembly and re-engineering every compononent ground up

Well, what is this thread about exactly??????????? Have you failed to notice, I and others are saying, it is a Charlie II Russian made nuclear powered submarine. Not an indigenous product of India. So where does the question of successful design comes from? You are proving our point, Indian did not design a thing it is all borrowed Obsolete Russian technology.

4) Can India be willing to upset its main defense partner by infringing on intellectual property of Russia.

Money talks, Russian were on board who knows what agreements were signed. Same way, the LCA is design by the French, for which you paid for their services, and called it indigenous. There is pattern to Indian madness called indigenous products.

5) Simplest question, can you exactly formulate the hull alloy and the treatment process by any non destructive means.

This question is already answered above, there was no need, design was Charlie II.

think about it in your spare time.

This is an obnoxious, condescending and insulting remarks. I had been kidding with you all, read my posts properly, if I say I am sufficiently educated, pay attention to what I say. This I had been trying to say to the Indians, think, before making the claims of “indigenous” products.

Ridiculous nature of Indians claims I have already exposed, for over two years the false rumour had been circulating in Indian media, Arihant is doing sea trials. While December 2010 articles says when it start the sea trials.

Your establishments are spreading false information through the press, to hide their abject failures, yet again. They launched the submarine without nuclear reactor and weapon carrying capabilities, because they were well behind the schedule, over run costs, over run time, not finished product, as usual. They fooled the Indians that it is ready and launched. Even though it is not either a nuclear powered submarine or capable to carry nuclear missiles.
So what was the purpose of launch of this submarine? Don’t you have non-nuclear submarines in Indian stock?

Rest of your post is boosting as usual. I don’t have to answer it.

Now, I suggest you should use all your spare time and think, before responding to my post. You will be just increasing your difficulties. As I said, until now, the only thing is proven without any answers from the Indian participants in the discussion, that it is a Charlie II submarine, not indigenous as falsely claimed, it does not have a nuclear reactor fitted, for which according to the evidence produced, the submarine had to be ripped opened and it could take another 2 years to get it ready.

Then there is the questions to build a weapon carrying sections, tubes, launching mechanism etc, this would take another year or more. After all the remaining work carried out. It needs to be tested first and then go through extensive sea trials and weapon firing tests before induction. We are still looking at least 5 years or beyond.

My request for the Indians, please do not waste my valuable time, be precise, I have built up the case through your own media. Either you provide undeniable proofs to prove to the contrary or accept my analysis based on your own media reports, thank you.

 

[shrivatsa]

@Sandy_3126



Simple answer to both of your question is no you can not build a submarine by studying a leased vehicle, for the parameters for design you had the Russians on board from the day one.

Neither did I say the vehicle was leased for design I said it was leased for training of the crew. Do you have difficulty understanding plain English?



Well, what is this thread about exactly??????????? Have you failed to notice, I and others are saying, it is a Charlie II Russian made nuclear powered submarine. Not an indigenous product of India. So where does the question of successful design comes from? You are proving our point, Indian did not design a thing it is all borrowed Obsolete Russian technology.



Money talks, Russian were on board who knows what agreements were signed. Same way, the LCA is design by the French, for which you paid for their services, and called it indigenous. There is pattern to Indian madness called indigenous products.



This question is already answered above, there was no need, design was Charlie II.



This is an obnoxious, condescending and insulting remarks. I had been kidding with you all, read my posts properly, if I say I am sufficiently educated, pay attention to what I say. This I had been trying to say to the Indians, think, before making the claims of “indigenous” products.

Ridiculous nature of Indians claims I have already exposed, for over two years the false rumour had been circulating in Indian media, Arihant is doing sea trials. While December 2010 articles says when it start the sea trials.

Your establishments are spreading false information through the press, to hide their abject failures, yet again. They launched the submarine without nuclear reactor and weapon carrying capabilities, because they were well behind the schedule, over run costs, over run time, not finished product, as usual. They fooled the Indians that it is ready and launched. Even though it is not either a nuclear powered submarine or capable to carry nuclear missiles.
So what was the purpose of launch of this submarine? Don’t you have non-nuclear submarines in Indian stock?

Rest of your post is boosting as usual. I don’t have to answer it.

Now, I suggest you should use all your spare time and think, before responding to my post. You will be just increasing your difficulties. As I said, until now, the only thing is proven without any answers from the Indian participants in the discussion, that it is a Charlie II submarine, not indigenous as falsely claimed, it does not have a nuclear reactor fitted, for which according to the evidence produced, the submarine had to be ripped opened and it could take another 2 years to get it ready.

Then there is the questions to build a weapon carrying sections, tubes, launching mechanism etc, this would take another year or more. After all the remaining work carried out. It needs to be tested first and then go through extensive sea trials and weapon firing tests before induction. We are still looking at least 5 years or beyond.

My request for the Indians, please do not waste my valuable time, be precise, I have built up the case through your own media. Either you provide undeniable proofs to prove to the contrary or accept my analysis based on your own media reports, thank you.

how do you know its charlie 2 ? have ya seen it

 

[Obambam]

"Catching up" doesn't mean to overcome the state of china economy now but , where China will be in the next 30 years.

And since assumptions are rushing high here ,
this is what Economic forecast look like fr the next 20 years (just came in)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/110537-india-gallop-9-economic-growth-average-next-20-years-5.html#post1787250

I don't know whether to pity you or not. It is hard enough to predict accurately the growth for 5 years let alone the next 20? And just to let you know, it is just a prediction. The market is very volatile and anything ranging from inflation to natural disasters can upset the economy a great deal. It is also ludicrous to think India in 30 years time would equal to the future China asif China will remain idle for India. Moreover China is already a decade ahead. Lets first hope the Government of India spends its money wisely, address its corruption, health and poverty issues. Then we can look further up into India's future.

 

[MilSpec]

@Sandy_3126



Simple answer to both of your question is no you can not build a submarine by studying a leased vehicle, for the parameters for design you had the Russians on board from the day one.

Neither did I say the vehicle was leased for design I said it was leased for training of the crew. Do you have difficulty understanding plain English?



Well, what is this thread about exactly??????????? Have you failed to notice, I and others are saying, it is a Charlie II Russian made nuclear powered submarine. Not an indigenous product of India. So where does the question of successful design comes from? You are proving our point, Indian did not design a thing it is all borrowed Obsolete Russian technology.



Money talks, Russian were on board who knows what agreements were signed. Same way, the LCA is design by the French, for which you paid for their services, and called it indigenous. There is pattern to Indian madness called indigenous products.



This question is already answered above, there was no need, design was Charlie II.



This is an obnoxious, condescending and insulting remarks. I had been kidding with you all, read my posts properly, if I say I am sufficiently educated, pay attention to what I say. This I had been trying to say to the Indians, think, before making the claims of “indigenous” products.

Ridiculous nature of Indians claims I have already exposed, for over two years the false rumour had been circulating in Indian media, Arihant is doing sea trials. While December 2010 articles says when it start the sea trials.

Your establishments are spreading false information through the press, to hide their abject failures, yet again. They launched the submarine without nuclear reactor and weapon carrying capabilities, because they were well behind the schedule, over run costs, over run time, not finished product, as usual. They fooled the Indians that it is ready and launched. Even though it is not either a nuclear powered submarine or capable to carry nuclear missiles.
So what was the purpose of launch of this submarine? Don’t you have non-nuclear submarines in Indian stock?

Rest of your post is boosting as usual. I don’t have to answer it.

Now, I suggest you should use all your spare time and think, before responding to my post. You will be just increasing your difficulties. As I said, until now, the only thing is proven without any answers from the Indian participants in the discussion, that it is a Charlie II submarine, not indigenous as falsely claimed, it does not have a nuclear reactor fitted, for which according to the evidence produced, the submarine had to be ripped opened and it could take another 2 years to get it ready.

Then there is the questions to build a weapon carrying sections, tubes, launching mechanism etc, this would take another year or more. After all the remaining work carried out. It needs to be tested first and then go through extensive sea trials and weapon firing tests before induction. We are still looking at least 5 years or beyond.

My request for the Indians, please do not waste my valuable time, be precise, I have built up the case through your own media. Either you provide undeniable proofs to prove to the contrary or accept my analysis based on your own media reports, thank you.

Ok buddy enough of your BS... this entire pansy case that you present is based on conjecture and your own fantasies of lalaland.

if the entire design is a rippoff from some russian sub and russians were on board .. why would we even need ant testing for it.. rusian sub is a proven platform .. just commsion it like the SU30MKI... they did not have to be subjected to extensive testing.

next you claim about development of armament delevery system to take another year for development , and nuclear propulsion requiring additional time... wait didn't you mention russian were on board for the whole thing from day one...

and about boosting...

answer this ... HOW WILL YOU DERIVE FORMULATION OF HULL MATERIAL AND WELDING SURFACE PREPARATION FROM STUDYING A FOREIGN DESIGN?

 

[MilSpec]

@Sandy_3126



Simple answer to both of your question is no you can not build a submarine by studying a leased vehicle, for the parameters for design you had the Russians on board from the day one.

Neither did I say the vehicle was leased for design I said it was leased for training of the crew. Do you have difficulty understanding plain English?


.

Make up your mind first...
you claim Arihant is a ripoff...

Did our evil engineers reverse engineer it... or russians gave a license to MFG ?

Or are you suggesting that russians would undermine their own business by covertly suppliying indians the design of their subs for Indians to claim it indigenous ???

 

[Dharmachakra]

Guys,

Its my strong belief that this thread has done past its life.
All the information regarding russian consultancy and help has been provided. No engineer can build a brand new sub by getting trained on a nuclear one.IF someone still thinks that way, then they are mentally mansturbating.
All the sub-systems required to build Arihant have been there for the past 2 decades and many new ones have been designed lately. We got assistance (know-how for the light water reactors from Russia, since India is relatively new to this field of design)

Lets lock this us and dont feed the trolls. They are just arguing for the sake of arguments with no substance to support thier rattlings.
I myself dont give a heck once after I explain in detail.

Its upto them to believe it or still live in denial mode. They have got numerous problems in pakistan itself. Possible that their little brain got flooded with extremist thoughs and mil coups and political crisis,..... They might not be able to re-characterise thier opinion on Indian made stuff( Brain is over loaded)and suffering with denial syndrome.

Now everyone please rest in peace.

 

[kingdurgaking]

^^^^ The adversaries day by day are getting frustrated and getting new new terms for Indigenousness ...... First it was on foreign components on board and now even consultancy heee heee.....

They still cant understand that indigenousness for product doesnt equate to those product launched and funded by the company... They are twisting like ... Pentium of Intel doesnt belong to Intel because it was designed by Indian ... but they cant see the whole picture.... the company funded the project and developed it..


There were lot of discussion here.... some guys even questioned the product of Infosys some time back

 

[Omega007]

Cut this bs guys.From 1st post it is a troll thread made to troll.Stop waisting your time.No one except the builders and users know what arihant looks like and what are its real specifications.And this poor over the border keypad warriors are burning inside out and jumping up and down by saying arihant is this arihant is that.Who cares it is indigenous or not!The matter of fact is we can build state of the art stealthy ssbns and ssns and pakirtan can't.End of the story.
ENJOY........

 

[Aramsogo]

^^^^ The adversaries day by day are getting frustrated and getting new new terms for Indigenousness ...... First it was on foreign components on board and now even consultancy heee heee.....

They still cant understand that indigenousness for product doesnt equate to those product launched and funded by the company... They are twisting like ... Pentium of Intel doesnt belong to Intel because it was designed by Indian ... but they cant see the whole picture.... the company funded the project and developed it..


There were lot of discussion here.... some guys even questioned the product of Infosys some time back

OMG, are you still using a Pentium?? My phone is more powerful.

 

[kingdurgaking]

OMG, are you still using a Pentium?? My phone is more powerful.

Are you from school?