India to use GE’s Engine for possible co-development of 110kN thrust engine for AMCA

[$@rJen]

India to use GE’s Engine for possible co-development of 110kN thrust engine for AMCA
Published February 24, 2016
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar during his visit to the United States last year held a crucial meeting with Us officials on possible co-development of a jet engine which can power India’s indigenously developed 5th generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Proposed AMCA fighter jet will be twin-engined Stealth fighter jet, and according to its developers will require engines which can generate 110kN of thrust but for India such engine is not available for off the shelf purchase and will require uprating of existing engines to deliver required thrust.

General Electric Aviation (GE) and DRDO have already been engaged in talk of uprating F414-INS6 engine which currently has been selected to power LCA Tejas Mk.II . Talks have been held to take the current thrust of the F414-INS6 engine which is currently generating 97.9 kN thrust with afterburner to 110kN of thrust.

General Electric Aviation (GE) as per its Internal R&D can uprate its F414 by executing it under two programmes. Under F414-EDE (Enhanced Durability Engine) new engine will be able to generate up to 20% more thrust by increasing fan airflow with the EDE hardware configuration. the new engine will be redesigned to have 6 stages, down from 7.

General Electric is also working on new F414-EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) which will have a new core and a redesigned fan and compressor. The enhanced engine will offer up to 20 percent thrust boost, increasing it to 26,400 pounds (120 kN).

While F414 EDE is billed as an upgrade – not a new centerline engine – but it promises significant performance improvement which will improve fuel efficiency, while F414-EPE involves much deeper design changes including a new core which will an ideal project which will excite Indian scientist.

Interestingly India’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Russian JSC Rosoboronexport/JSC Klimov have entered into a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint development of Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle for future generation aero-engine applications.

According to Sources close to idrw.org Klimov have offered to develop thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology based on the universal KLITV (Klimov Thrust Vector) technology which can be customised for fitment on any jet engines.

Sources also informed that thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology offered can be matted with engines of any OEM’s even if engines are from United states. India will commence development work on Homegrown 5th generation fighter aircraft project which as per IAF request will have thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN).

NOTE : Article cannot be reproduced without written permission and Direct Citation to Article link or mention of idrw.org or IDRW NEWS NETWORK has to be mentioned .

 

[Ankit Kumar]

"Interestingly India’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) and Russian JSC Rosoboronexport/JSC Klimov have entered into a memorandum of understanding (MoU) for joint development of Multi-Axis Thrust Vectoring Nozzle for future generation aero-engine applications.

According to Sources close to idrw.org Klimov have offered to develop thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) technology based on the universal KLITV (Klimov Thrust Vector) technology which can be customised for fitment on any jet engines."

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT !

 

[Ind4Ever]

Wow... But what about Russian engine offered. FGFA engines under development in Russia are more power than optimized GE 414 . Unprecedented confusion in predicting MoD moves

But wait "Putting all your eggs in one basket" suddenly fine?

 

[Oldman1]

Wow... But what about Russian engine offered. FGFA engines under development in Russia are more power than optimized GE 414 . Unprecedented confusion in predicting MoD moves

But wait "Putting all your eggs in one basket" suddenly fine?

Perhaps its more about reliability than power. Or last longer.

 

[C130]

Wow... But what about Russian engine offered. FGFA engines under development in Russia are more power than optimized GE 414 . Unprecedented confusion in predicting MoD moves

But wait "Putting all your eggs in one basket" suddenly fine?

weight of the engine and fuel consumption has to be takeb into account.

is AMCA going to be in the same size of Su-35 and Pak-FA, or Rafale and F-18 E/F? if it's the later than GE-414EPE makes more sense


of course India will want ToT and to build them in India...which I think is a very real possibility.

 

[randomradio]

Wow... But what about Russian engine offered. FGFA engines under development in Russia are more power than optimized GE 414 . Unprecedented confusion in predicting MoD moves

But wait "Putting all your eggs in one basket" suddenly fine?

The dimensions of the Type 30 won't suite AMCA. And the Type 30's FOC is expected only in 2025.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Wow... But what about Russian engine offered. FGFA engines under development in Russia are more power than optimized GE 414 . Unprecedented confusion in predicting MoD moves

But wait "Putting all your eggs in one basket" suddenly fine?

Considering how big those engines are, I dont think it can make it to AMCA.

However, Japanese has it's own engines for it's own, 'AMCA'.

IHI Corporation XF5

Considering Japan is opening up it's defence exports, and India being one of it's first customers, why not take a look?

 

[$@rJen]

Considering how big those engines are, I dont think it can make it to AMCA.

However, Japanese has it's own engines for it's own, 'AMCA'.

IHI Corporation XF5

Considering Japan is opening up it's defence exports, and India being one of it's first customers, why not take a look?

the XF5 is almost equal to Snecma M88 which is being used in Rafale, why go for a proven platform than a unproven ones??? make collaboration with the french, with rafale coming it'd be easy incase of maintenance and stuff

 

[Water Car Engineer]

the XF5 is almost equal to Snecma M88 which is being used in Rafale, why go for a proven platform than a unproven ones??? make collaboration with the french, with rafale coming it'd be easy incase of maintenance and stuff

That's a good possible option as well.

I honestly think talks with GE might be too far a head by now for whatever option is out there.

 

[drunken-monke]

To be honest, good move and development.. GE engines proved to be very reliable in LCA project.. I dare say, not a single failure or crash.. The quality of F404 made India pick GE for future development. Reliability has been given the most importance..

 

[Ind4Ever]

Considering how big those engines are, I dont think it can make it to AMCA.

However, Japanese has it's own engines for it's own, 'AMCA'.

IHI Corporation XF5

Considering Japan is opening up it's defence exports, and India being one of it's first customers, why not take a look?

Impressive man. India and Japan politicians at present have lots more understanding than with Russian or Americans. AMCA being our future front line fighter falls in a different category unlike light combat aircraft. Until unless we get complete or maximum ToT on which we can develop our Kaveri next gen engines. Americans now got what they wanted. They will literally comes on PAF with Russians as far as Indian defence sectors are concerned. 1 AMCA fighter jet will need 3 engines in its life time. 1 Tejas need at least 2 engines and one more if we want to extend its life and flight worthiness. That's almost puts at massive 2000 give or take in near future. In short our whole bunch of Made in India fighter's life depends upon US India relationship. If we had another 26/11 like terror strike Pakistan will again plead with US to scuffle our retaliation which should Invasion nothing less and nothing more or else BJPs leadership image will be dented for ever.

We should look into what Russians can pull off from next generation engines and downgrading it's power means miniaturized AMCA engines. Or as you said. Japanese technology is much more trust worthy option. Will they be ready is the question right? They have SSK under same restrictions of their Stealth technology. Not sure how we can get them

The dimensions of the Type 30 won't suite AMCA. And the Type 30's FOC is expected only in 2025.

Brother let's not jump the guns. We should wait until 2017. I guess officials said first prototype will be ready by 2016 the new time-line at least by 2017. Down grading it's power means miniaturized AMCA compatible engines,. We can trust Russians with strategic requirements like engines at times of war. That too when we won't have any problems with price tag they propose. We will just go for it. But with the Americans lots of Pakistani lobbies and European lobbies will be involved. Don't you think it's a bad move putting all eggs in one basket? Or since it's fancy Americans it's OK now all of a sudden?

 

[C130]

To be honest, good move and development.. GE engines proved to be very reliable in LCA project.. I dare say, not a single failure or crash.. The quality of F404 made India pick GE for future development. Reliability has been given the most importance..

a deal between U.S/GE and India regarding the F-404/414 would be a monster deal

India wants to induct hundreds of Tejas MKI/II and hundreds of AMCA. That is 1000's of engines over the lifetime of both birds.

you could use the F-414EPE on Tejas MKII as well...whether that would give it super cruise capability would be interesting

and streamlining logistics of just using one engine type instead of another engine as well between both aircraft.

you could even streamline it even more if Tejas or AMCA becomes carrier capable, leaving the Mig-29K in a minor role.


so the main three engines in India future would be (excluding trainers)


-Saturn AL-31FP (Su-30MKI)
-General Electric GE-414EPE ( Tejas II, AMCA)
-Saturn AL-41 (FGFA)

 

[Ind4Ever]

To be honest, good move and development.. GE engines proved to be very reliable in LCA project.. I dare say, not a single failure or crash.. The quality of F404 made India pick GE for future development. Reliability has been given the most importance..

What about availability? Until unless it's made in India with maximum ToT it's very daring move indeed

To be honest, good move and development.. GE engines proved to be very reliable in LCA project.. I dare say, not a single failure or crash.. The quality of F404 made India pick GE for future development. Reliability has been given the most importance..

What about availability? Until unless it's made in India with maximum ToT it's very daring move indeed

weight of the engine and fuel consumption has to be takeb into account.

is AMCA going to be in the same size of Su-35 and Pak-FA, or Rafale and F-18 E/F? if it's the later than GE-414EPE makes more sense


of course India will want ToT and to build them in India...which I think is a very real possibility.

LOL ToT from US? OK I wish I had horns on my head too...

 

[raktaka]

a deal between U.S/GE and India regarding the F-404/414 would be a monster deal

India wants to induct hundreds of Tejas MKI/II and hundreds of AMCA. That is 1000's of engines over the lifetime of both birds.

you could use the F-414EPE on Tejas MKII as well...whether that would give it super cruise capability would be interesting

and streamlining logistics of just using one engine type instead of another engine as well between both aircraft.

you could even streamline it even more if Tejas or AMCA becomes carrier capable, leaving the Mig-29K in a minor role.


so the main three engines in India future would be (excluding trainers)


-Saturn AL-31FP (Su-30MKI)
-General Electric GE-414EPE ( Tejas II, AMCA)
-Saturn AL-41 (FGFA)

It would be more than that.

If US could demonstrate ToT of 414 in good faith, it would be a clear show of support to India. The nuclear deal did not give anything to India what it did not already have.

It's a Win-Win. The 414 has reached its end of life in the US. But History however tells me that it will not happen, unless US decides to step up and change history.

It will all depend on who the next US president is.

 

[randomradio]

Brother let's not jump the guns. We should wait until 2017. I guess officials said first prototype will be ready by 2016 the new time-line at least by 2017. Down grading it's power means miniaturized AMCA compatible engines,. We can trust Russians with strategic requirements like engines at times of war. That too when we won't have any problems with price tag they propose. We will just go for it. But with the Americans lots of Pakistani lobbies and European lobbies will be involved. Don't you think it's a bad move putting all eggs in one basket? Or since it's fancy Americans it's OK now all of a sudden?

The precise purpose of not choosing a Russian engines equates to not putting all eggs in one basket. We can't choose a Russian engine mainly for that reason. If it were not for that, the AMCA would have seen a new 12 ton RD-33.

After 2030, we will have only two programs, FGFA and AMCA. One will be wholly Russian, the other will be a mix of Indian and the West. Eventually, GTRE has plans of putting an indigenous engine on the AMCA for a post-2035 introduction.

The FGFA's Type 30 is a very big engine. Its diameter should be in the same class as the Su-27. That's about 1000-1200mm. The AMCA can't handle such a big engine, it can only accept a 750-900mm engine. The AMCA is basically a Typhoon with more thrust and more fuel.

We can't make the Type 30 smaller.