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India seeks open skies deal with Bangladesh

Indians are small-minded, but are very nationalist. So, better not to count on their domestic passengers. Not only should we refuse an open sky treaty, we should also restrict Indian air presence in our land.

You did not get me. I am not talking about their domestic customer.
Give you an example. If a BD flyer wants to go to Bukaro of Jharkhand, no BD carrier will be able to carry him beyond Kolkata but a Indian carrier will take him as they have their own interchange from Kolkata to Bukaro. If we allow Indian in open sky they will be able to operate as many flight as they wish and take all the passenger who are not destined to their international airport.

I am talking about BD flyer not Indian flyer.
 
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Bangladesh does not operate older planes.
But the problem here is due to larger reach in Indian domestic, Indian airlines will have unfair advantage over BD airlines while carrying passenger to and from India. For Instance BD carrier can only carry passenger to their international airport but a Indian carrier can carry them to any airport by their domestic interchange. So BD carrier will loose to Indian carrier while India is a lucrative market.

Lol. Sri Lanka is still a pretty small market than BD. But it still has some percentage of air travel in India. My relatives from SE countries travel to Chennai through SL Airways though there are 5-6 Indian carriers operating on the same route. Cost and handling is cheaper. BD cannot win. But it can gain a good market.
 
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Lol. Sri Lanka is still a pretty small market than BD. But it still has some percentage of air travel in India. My relatives from SE countries travel to Chennai through SL Airways though there are 5-6 Indian carriers operating on the same route. Cost and handling is cheaper. BD cannot win. But it can gain a good market.

My points exactly. Bangladesh is not competitive with the large scale of economies Indian (especially private) carriers, like:
  • Air India Express.
  • AirAsia India.
  • GoAir.
  • IndiGo.
  • Jet Airways.
  • SpiceJet.
enjoy, with say 100+ (sometimes 300+) airplanes in their fleet. Heck buying fuel alone (in larger quantities) is many times cheaper for airlines in India, not to talk about economies about overhead on facilities, personnel, supplies. Our sole aviation-fuel supplier's (Padma petroleum, govt. run idiots) prices are quite a bit higher than Indian prices, even considering Arab 'discounts'.

Like I said before, the reason India wants this open skies deal is simply to avail of fifth freedom rights to carry Bangladeshi labor from Dhaka to middle east and Malaysia/Singapore routes. There is our biggest market and Indian Airlines want to compete there.

Question to ask for Bangladeshis is - are we ready to go into competition with Indian airlines on these routes? Like carrying Indian labor class to middle east or say Malaysia/Singapore? Do you think they are going to let us take their market so easily?

If you ask me - I'd say Bangladeshi airlines (even private ones) are far from ready. It's a prescription for essentially killing off our nascent airline industry, which is growing, yet in need of protection. It's like asking for your own death cetificate....
 
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From my experience air India and biman both are "katchra" airlines. I would board none.

Air India is much improved now. Its part of Star Alliance now as well.

No alliance would touch Biman with a ten foot pole in the next hundred+ years.

Its too insignificantly sized to begin with, even before we address the squalor.

Like I said before, the reason India wants this open skies deal is simply to avail of fifth freedom rights to carry Bangladeshi labor from Dhaka to middle east and Malaysia/Singapore routes. There is our biggest market and Indian Airlines want to compete there.

Question to ask for Bangladeshis is - are we ready to go into competition with Indian airlines on these routes? Like carrying Indian labor class to middle east or say Malaysia/Singapore? Do you think they are going to let us take their market so easily?

If you ask me - I'd say Bangladeshi airlines (even private ones) are far from ready. It's a prescription for essentially killing off our nascent airline industry, which is growing, yet in need of protection. It's like asking for your own death cetificate....

You do realise that you are essentially in favour of diverting taxpayer money to an inefficient business with the intent the situation will magically improve in the future (under the same govt bureaucratic stewardship).....when this taxpayer money could be spent on much more productive causes?

Advantage to the consumer trumps advantage to the supplier, when the industry is capital intensive, very low labour intensity and is essentially propped up by taxpayer dollars, bureaucracy and insulated with little competition.

If BD has private airlines, then there is no reason why they should not be able to grab a part of the pie of Indian-Gulf air travel market.....which is magnitudes higher than BD-gulf market. Have a look at the SL airlines model for example (and it even is encumbered by some govt control too I believe ever since Emirates withdrew its stake).

Or is BD private industry so incompetent too? BD must get out of its shell of "we just cant compete, thus need to keep inefficient insulation going" even for industries that employ a tiny infinitesimal portion of its employable people.

All you lot brag about the massive low interest loans you got from China, put it to some use with the BD private aviation sector....open skies with India is a massive opportunity if you play your cards right.

There is no conspiracy to prevent BD airlines from taking a share of our gulf travel market either. If SL airlines can do it, why not BD airlines? Yes Biman would suck at it, but private airlines need to lower their margins to get entry in this competitive market....why should BD costs be a lot higher than the rest and uncompetitive? Lease a few 737s, employ the bare minimum staff and crew and pass on the savings in a budget model. Grow from there as required. Whats the issue?
 
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If a BD flyer wants to go to Bukaro of Jharkhand, no BD carrier will be able to carry him beyond Kolkata but a Indian carrier will take him as they have their own interchange from Kolkata to Bukaro

That Bangladeshi who wants to go to Bokaro will use that flight too few and far between. We are talking about large numbers of people going to say, Bangalore or Chennai. How many Bangladeshis are going to these routes? I'm not aware of the numbers...

I don't think Indian carriers will be too keen to lose these routes - and they will make very sure that they don't. It will be in the fine print of the open skies agreement. This needs very careful negotiation.

Also - I'm curious, what other neighboring country do India have an open skies agreement with? Malaysia?

The Asean Single Aviation Market (ASAM) was formulated with the idea of more developed aviation market countries taking advantage of relatively populous Asian markets (Indonesia, Philippines). However Indonesia and Philippines are yet to get on board and probably never will. They want to protect their own carriers and that takes precedence over any opening up of their own aviation markets.

You can see the following,

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ectionism-still-winning-liberalization-stalls

You do realise that you are essentially in favour of diverting taxpayer money to an inefficient business with the intent the situation will magically improve in the future (under the same govt bureaucratic stewardship).....when this taxpayer money could be spent on much more productive causes?
'Productivity' is not the 'mantra' of Biman. :-)

They have improved a bit compared to ten years ago. But 'flag carrier' is a prestige issue to the govt. (even though it's a loss-leader part of the govt.)

No one except the labor class travels on Biman.

You can go discuss this with Hasina. She names every aircraft personally as a poetry exercise.... :rolleyes:

Advantage to the consumer trumps advantage to the supplier, when the industry is capital intensive, very low labour intensity and is essentially propped up by taxpayer dollars, bureaucracy and insulated with little competition.

I know....but this is Bangladesh we are talking about.

If BD has private airlines, then there is no reason why they should not be able to grab a part of the pie of Indian-Gulf air travel market.....which is magnitudes higher than BD-gulf market. Have a look at the SL airlines model for example (and it even is encumbered by some govt control too I believe ever since Emirates withdrew its stake).

Like I said - Bangladeshi airlines (even private ones) are not run professionally and will not be competitive with Indian airlines, even in the next five years. There is simply not enough healthy competitive environment to have airlines make an honest profit (fuel prices are too high to start with). There were a dozen private airlines so far and half of them went bankrupt already because of either shoddy equipment, poor service or substandard maintenance. Running an airline is sophisticated business and these local business house have a long way to go without a joint venture to learn how to run one.

Or is BD private industry so incompetent too? BD must get out of its shell of "we just cant compete, thus need to keep inefficient insulation going" even for industries that employ a tiny infinitesimal portion of its employable people.

Well its not me that's taking a stand, just reporting it like it is.

The private airlines all are run by political big wigs and they have huge lobbying capability at the govt. level.

There is no conspiracy to prevent BD airlines from taking a share of our gulf travel market either. If SL airlines can do it, why not BD airlines? Yes Biman would suck at it, but private airlines need to lower their margins to get entry in this competitive market....why should BD costs be a lot higher than the rest and uncompetitive? Lease a few 737s, employ the bare minimum staff and crew and pass on the savings in a budget model. Grow from there as required. Whats the issue?

Ha ha ha:lol:

You haven't seen the type of people who run Biman. :-)

I hope the Bangladeshi posters don't mind me saying it like it actually is. I know a few of the Biman senior managers and there is not a lot of hope, yet, going by speaking to them about aviation economics, route planning etc. You have to have a lot more exposure in a foreign airline and Biman managers get appointed by nepotism, not their expertise. :-)

Biman managers are interested in only doing one thing and that is line their own pockets. The local private airlines do not run their operations a whole lot better either. We need to get Air Asia in the Bangladesh market (right after we build and give them the management of the new Dhaka Airport).

Some fresh new injection of airline blood is needed.

How is Air Asia in India doing by the way?
 
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That Bangladeshi who wants to go to Bokaro will use that flight too few and far between. We are talking about large numbers of people going to say, Bangalore or Chennai. How many Bangladeshis are going to these routes? I'm not aware of the numbers...

I don't think Indian carriers will be too keen to lose these routes - and they will make very sure that they don't. It will be in the fine print of the open skies agreement. This needs very careful negotiation.

Also - I'm curious, what other neighboring country do India have an open skies agreement with? Malaysia?

The Asean Single Aviation Market (ASAM) was formulated with the idea of more developed aviation market countries taking advantage of relatively populous Asian markets (Indonesia, Philippines). However Indonesia and Philippines are yet to get on board and probably never will. They want to protect their own carriers and that takes precedence over any opening up of their own aviation markets.

You can see the following,

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ectionism-still-winning-liberalization-stalls


'Productivity' is not the 'mantra' of Biman. :-)

They have improved a bit compared to ten years ago. But 'flag carrier' is a prestige issue to the govt. (even though it's a loss-leader part of the govt.)

No one except the labor class travels on Biman.

You can go discuss this with Hasina. She names every aircraft personally as a poetry exercise.... :rolleyes:



I know....but this is Bangladesh we are talking about.



Like I said - Bangladeshi airlines (even private ones) are not run professionally and will not be competitive with Indian airlines, even in the next five years. There is simply not enough healthy competitive environment to have airlines make an honest profit (fuel prices are too high to start with). There were a dozen private airlines so far and half of them went bankrupt already because of either shoddy equipment, poor service or substandard maintenance. Running an airline is sophisticated business and these local business house have a long way to go without a joint venture to learn how to run one.



Well its not me that's taking a stand, just reporting it like it is.

The private airlines all are run by political big wigs and they have huge lobbying capability at the govt. level.



Ha ha ha:lol:

You haven't seen the type of people who run Biman. :-)

I hope the Bangladeshi posters don't mind me saying it like it actually is. I know a few of the Biman senior managers and there is not a lot of hope, yet, going by speaking to them about aviation economics, route planning etc. You have to have a lot more exposure in a foreign airline and Biman managers get appointed by nepotism, not their expertise. :-)

Biman managers are interested in only doing one thing and that is line their own pockets. The local private airlines do not run their operations a whole lot better either. We need to get Air Asia in the Bangladesh market (right after we build and give them the management of the new Dhaka Airport).

Some fresh new injection of airline blood is needed.

How is Air Asia in India doing by the way?

Ok so the rot extends to private aviation sector then too. Thats really too bad, I thought they were more accountable and professional than that.

But then why insulate and mollycoddle the rot? Time to give them a kick up the arse, for the benefit of the BD consumer class. Same goes for a lot of other industries. I mean BD at some time has to open itself up in several areas, take the short term hit for the long term gain etc.

Yes the Chinese loans can build up capacities (hardware) and such, but the software improvement is not guaranteed by this at all, esp given the dreadful state BD higher education is in overall. Elite jobs that make up less than 0.1% of all jobs should be held to the fire of open free market global competition and not absorb multiple % points of tax revenue each year.

But then I guess I understand what you are saying, its the BD govt vested interests that benefit from status quo and thus it will continue etc....and the private airlines are just extensions of this in reality too. That really sucks for BD.

But out of interest, in the off-chance it happens, wouldn't you personally welcome open skies with a major neighbouring consumer/supplier and thus taking a solid pickaxe to this corrupt edifice? BD should also sign one with China and major ASEAN countries too if you ask me....I just see India having the actual political lever to even attempt a good hard pry in the current BD administration....that may get the ball rolling with the others over time too (in the usual balancing effort to not just have something with India alone etc).

We need to get Air Asia in the Bangladesh market (right after we build and give them the management of the new Dhaka Airport).

Some fresh new injection of airline blood is needed.

How is Air Asia in India doing by the way?

Well thats what open skies agreements would do over time. Reduce the hassle and become very viable for LCCs to operate in an emerging market like BD....quotas are just anathema to LCCs, they need to be given flexibility according to the season etc...

AirAsia India is doing quite well, as are most LCCs. Their market share is small, but the market is growing and its early days for them....I am sure they will do a lot better in the coming years as they get more experience how to compete well against indigo, spicejet and GoAir. Tata have a sizeable stake in them so they will definitely have a lot riding for them long term.

Their financials are improving this year and expected to continue:

http://businessworld.in/article/Air...t-Loss-Shrinks-56-Per-Cent/30-08-2016-105011/

Its a cutthroat market for sure! Have to be ready to take a cpl years of losses etc before you get returns.
 
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You did not get me. I am not talking about their domestic customer.
Give you an example. If a BD flyer wants to go to Bukaro of Jharkhand, no BD carrier will be able to carry him beyond Kolkata but a Indian carrier will take him as they have their own interchange from Kolkata to Bukaro. If we allow Indian in open sky they will be able to operate as many flight as they wish and take all the passenger who are not destined to their international airport.

I am talking about BD flyer not Indian flyer.
Bold part: Sorry to tell you. The bold line is quite clumsy for me to understand. I do not also understand the relationship between the two sentences. Would you mind if I request you to take a little more time to elaborate the points for others to understand easily. However, I now agree to your point in another post that BD airlines will be beneficial if they are allowed to operate in Indian domestic destinations, at least those, which are surrounding BD. think of Indian NE seven sisters.
 
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Bold part: Sorry to tell you. The bold line is quite clumsy for me to understand. I do not also understand the relationship between the two sentences. Would you mind if I request you to take a little more time to elaborate the points for others to understand easily. However, I now agree to your point in another post that BD airlines will be beneficial if they are allowed to operate in Indian domestic destinations, at least those, which are surrounding BD. think of Indian NE seven sisters.

You will be welcome to fly to any of the airports in North East from Dhaka, CTG etc. under the open skies....in to and fro fashion (unless a certain list is negotiated).

You cannot fly between them however. India similarly will not be allowed to operate any flights between Dhaka and CTG, which is a tiny demand anyway.

Bangladesh has a pitifully low number of aircraft to service Indian domestic routes anyway.
 
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Bold part: Sorry to tell you. The bold line is quite clumsy for me to understand. I do not also understand the relationship between the two sentences. Would you mind if I request you to take a little more time to elaborate the points for others to understand easily. However, I now agree to your point in another post that BD airlines will be beneficial if they are allowed to operate in Indian domestic destinations, at least those, which are surrounding BD. think of Indian NE seven sisters.

In current scenario all airlines operate on bilateral gov-to-gov agreement and number of flights slot is assigned according to bilateral understanding. For instance if we allow Saudia to operate 5 flights a week, saudi government has to entertain BD carriers a certain number of flights per week according to the understanding. In open sky scenario Saudi is not bound by any agreement and they will operate as many flights as they want according to market demand (provided they make arrangement with the airport).

That Bangladeshi who wants to go to Bokaro will use that flight too few and far between. We are talking about large numbers of people going to say, Bangalore or Chennai. How many Bangladeshis are going to these routes? I'm not aware of the numbers...

I don't think Indian carriers will be too keen to lose these routes - and they will make very sure that they don't. It will be in the fine print of the open skies agreement. This needs very careful negotiation.

Also - I'm curious, what other neighboring country do India have an open skies agreement with? Malaysia?

The Asean Single Aviation Market (ASAM) was formulated with the idea of more developed aviation market countries taking advantage of relatively populous Asian markets (Indonesia, Philippines). However Indonesia and Philippines are yet to get on board and probably never will. They want to protect their own carriers and that takes precedence over any opening up of their own aviation markets.

You can see the following,

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ectionism-still-winning-liberalization-stalls

Bukharo is an example that I provided not that BD flyers are destined to that destination. There are hundreds of airport in India and we can only fly to 2/3 airport. Certainly more than 50% of passenger's final destination not confined in those 2/3 cities. For example Azmir, Kashi etc. My point was if we operate on open sky scenario our carrier will face a huge uneven price and route condition that we may loose out completely. So we have to ensure that our carrier have the same level playing filed as Indian carrier. For Indian carrier BD is just like an extension of domestic destinations if we allow them the open sky.

Open sky makes sense when you have huge transit passenger like Dubai
 
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EARLIER REAL ELECTED GOVERNMENTS OF BANGLADESH DID NOT CONCEDE TO INTERNATIONALLY REPUTED AIRLINERS I.E, QATAR,EMIRATES,ETC REQUESTS for 5th freedom rights..

WELL, NOW YOUALL HAVE YOUR OWN SK. HASINA AS P.M, WE REALLY WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED at all.
 
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Freedoms of the air
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The freedoms of the air are a set of commercial aviation rights granting a country's airlines the privilege to enter and land in another country's airspace, formulated as a result of disagreements over the extent of aviation liberalisation in the Convention on International Civil Aviation of 1944, known as the Chicago Convention. The United States had called for a standardized set of separate air rights to be negotiated between states, but most other countries were concerned that the size of the U.S. airlines would dominate air travel if there were not strict rules. The freedoms of the air are the fundamental building blocks of the international commercial aviation route network. The use of the terms "freedom" and "right" confer entitlement to operate international air services only within the scope of the multilateral and bilateral treaties (air services agreements) that allow them.

The first two freedoms concern the passage of commercial aircraft through foreign airspace and airports, the other freedoms are about carrying people, mail and cargo internationally. The first through fifth freedoms are officially enumerated by international treaties, especially the Chicago Convention. Several other freedoms have been added, and although most are not officially recognised under broadly applicable international treaties they have been agreed to by a number of countries. The lower-numbered freedoms are relatively universal while the higher-numbered ones are rarer and more controversial. Liberal open skies agreements often represent the least restrictive form of air services agreements and may include many if not all freedoms. They are relatively rare but examples include the recent single aviation markets in the European Union and between Australia and New Zealand.



Contents
[1Overview


Overview[edit]
Freedoms of the air apply to commercial aviation.[1][2]:145–146 The terms 'freedom' and 'right' are a shorthand way of referring to the type of international services permitted between two or more countries.[2]:145–146 Even when such services are allowed by countries, airlines may still face restrictions to accessing them by the terms of treaties or for other reasons.[2]:145–146[3]:19


a diagram of the nine freedoms, with blue circles indicating the operating airline's domestic market and red or yellow circles indicating foreign markets
Freedom Description Example
1st the right to fly over a foreign country without landing[4] New Delhi – Shanghai by an Indian company, overflying Nepal
2nd the right to refuel or carry out maintenance in a foreign country without embarking or disembarking passengers or cargo[4] Mumbai – New York by an Indian company, stopping for fuel in Dubai
3rd the right to fly from one's own country to another[4] Toronto – New Delhi by a Canadian company
4th the right to fly from another country to one's own[4] Mumbai – Chicago by a US company
5th the right to fly between two foreign countries on a flight originating or ending in one's own country[4] Bangalore – London – New York by an Indian company
6th the right to fly from a foreign country to another while stopping in one's own country for non-technical reasons[4] Singapore – New Delhi – Paris by an Indian company
7th the right to fly between two foreign countries while not offering flights to one's own country[4] Tokyo – Hyderabad by a Chinese company
8th the right to fly inside a foreign country, continuing to one's own country[4] Bangalore – New Delhi – Toronto by a Canadian company
9th the right to fly inside a foreign country without continuing to one's own country[4] Las Vegas – New York, by a French company
Transit rights[edit]
The first and second freedoms grant rights to pass through a country without carrying traffic that originates or terminates there and are known as 'transit rights'.[2]:146 The Chicago Convention drew up a multilateral agreement in which the first two freedoms, known as the International Air Services Transit Agreement (IASTA) or "Two Freedoms Agreement", were open to all signatories. As of mid-2007, the treaty was accepted by 129 countries.[5]

A country granting transit rights may impose fees for the privilege. The reasonableness of such fees has caused controversy at times.

First freedom[edit]

IASTA participants (and some of their dependent territories)

The United States has authority to charge overflight fees over its territory (en route, yellow) and over ocean regions where it has been delegated air traffic control responsibilities by the ICAO (oceanic, blue). The fees are only applicable to overflights; domestic & international flights arriving/departing the US are taxed through landing fees. (Note: Some US island territories lie within the oceanic fee regions, while the en route fee is charged over the Bahamas & Bermuda, where it provides only high-altitude ATC service)

The first freedom is the right to fly over a foreign country without landing.[6]:31 It grants the privilege to fly over the territory of a treaty country without landing. Member states of the International Air Services Transit Agreement grant this freedom (as well as the second freedom) to other member states,[7] subject to the transiting aircraft using designated air routes.[8] As of the summer of 2007, 129 countries were parties to this treaty, including such large ones as the United States of America, India, and Australia. However, Brazil, Russia, Indonesia, and China never joined, and Canada left the treaty in 1988.[9] These large and strategically located non-IASTA-member states prefer to maintain tighter control over foreign airlines' overflight of their airspace, and negotiate transit agreements with other countries on a case-by-case basis.[3]:23 Since the end of the Cold War, first freedom rights are almost completely universal.[2]:151Most countries require prior notification before an overflight, and may charge substantial fees for the privilege.[10]

IASTA allows each member country to charge foreign airlines "reasonable" fees for using its airports (which is applicable, presumably, only to the second freedom) and "facilities";[8] according to IATA, such fees should not be higher than those charged to domestic airlines engaged in similar international services.[8] Such fees indeed are commonly charged merely for the privilege of the overflight of a country's national territory, when no airport usage is involved.[11] (Although it should be noted that overflights might still be using services of a country's Air Traffic Control Centers). For example, the Federal Aviation Administration of the U.S., an IASTA signatory, charges the so-called en route fees, of $49.95 (US$56.86 beginning 1 October 2014) per 100 nautical miles (190 km), of great circle distance from point of entry of an aircraft into the U.S.-controlled airspace to the point of its exit from this airspace.[12] In addition, a lower fee—the oceanic fee—is charged ($20.09 per 100 nautical miles (190 km); $21.63 beginning 1 October 2014) for flying over the international waters where air traffic is controlled by the U.S., which includes sections of Atlantic & Arctic Oceans and much of the northern Pacific Ocean.[12] Countries that are not signatories of the IASTA charge overflight fees as well; among them, Russia, is known for charging high fees, especially on the transarctic routes between North America and Asia, which cross Siberia.[11] In 2008, Russia temporarily denied Lufthansa Cargopermission to overfly its airspace with cargo ostensibly due to "delayed payments for its flyover rights".[13] European airlines pay Russia €300 million a year for flyover permissions.[13]

Second freedom[edit]
The second freedom allows technical stops without the embarking or disembarking of passengers or cargo.[6]:31 It is the right to stop in one country solely for refueling or other maintenance on the way to another country.[2]:146 Because of longer range of modern airliners, second freedom rights are comparatively rarely exercised by passenger carriers today, but they are widely used by air cargo carriers, and are more or less universal between countries.[11]

The most famous example of the second freedom is Shannon Airport (Ireland), which was used as a stopping point for most North Atlantic flights until the 1960s. Anchorage was similarly used for flights between Western Europe and East Asia, bypassing Soviet airspace, until the 1980s. Anchorage was still used by some Chinese and Taiwanese airlines for flights to the U.S. and Toronto until the 2000s. Flights between Europe and South Africa often stopped at Ilha do Sal (Sal Island), off the coast of Senegal, due to many African nations refusing to allow South African flights to overfly their territory during the Apartheid regime. Gander, Newfoundland was also a frequent stopping point for airlines from the USSR and East Germany on the way to the Caribbean, Central America, Mexico and South America.

Traffic rights[edit]
In contrast to transit rights, 'traffic rights' allow commercial international services between, through and in some cases within the countries that are parties to air services agreements or other treaties.[2]:146 While it was agreed that the third to fifth freedoms would be negotiated between states, the International Air Transport Agreement (or "Five Freedoms Agreement") was also opened for signatures, encompassing the first five freedoms.[14]:108 The remaining four freedoms are made possible by some air services agreements but are not 'officially' recognized because they are not mentioned by the Chicago Convention.[14]:108

Third and fourth freedom[edit]
The third and fourth freedoms allow basic international service between two countries.[2]:146 Even when reciprocal third and fourth freedom rights are granted, air services agreements (e.g. the Bermuda Agreements) may still restrict many aspects of the traffic, such as the capacity of aircraft, the frequency of flights, the airlines permitted to fly and the airports permitted to be served.[2]:146–147 The third freedom is the right to carry passengers or cargo from one's own country to another.[6]:31 The right to carry passengers or cargo from another country to one's own is the fourth freedom.[6]:31 Third and fourth freedom rights are almost always granted simultaneously in bilateral agreements between countries.

Beyond rights[edit]
Beyond rights allow the carriage of traffic between (and sometimes within) countries that are foreign to the airlines that operate them.[2]:146 Today, the most controversial of these are fifth freedom rights.[2]:146[14]:108–109[14]:112 Less controversial but still restricted at times, though relatively more common are sixth freedom rights.[2]:146[15]:94–95

Beyond rights also encompass international flights with a foreign intermediate stop where passengers may only embark and disembark at the intermediate point on the leg of the flight that serves the origin of an airline operating it.[2]:146 It also includes 'stopover' traffic where passengers may embark or disembark at an intermediate stop as part of an itinerary between the endpoints of a multi-leg flight or connecting flights.Note[2]:146 Some international flights stop at multiple points in a foreign country and passengers may sometimes make stopovers in a similar manner, but because the traffic being carried does not originate in the country where the flight takes place it is not cabotage but another form of beyond rights.[16]:110

Fifth freedom[edit]
The fifth freedom allows an airline to carry revenue traffic between foreign countries as a part of services connecting the airline's own country.[17] It is the right to carry passengers from one's own country to a second country, and from that country to a third country (and so on). An example of a fifth freedom traffic right is an Emirates flight in 2004 from Dubai to Brisbane, Australia and onward to Auckland, New Zealand, where tickets can be sold on any sector.[6]:34 Fifth freedom traffic rights are intended to enhance the economic viability of an airline's long haul routes, but tend to be viewed by local airlines and governments as potentially unfair competition.[18]:33–34 The negotiations for fifth freedom traffic rights can be lengthy, because in practice the approval of at least three different nations is required.Note[19]:131

Fifth freedom traffic rights were instrumental to the economic viability of long-haul flight until the early 1980s, when advances in technology and increased passenger volume enabled the operation of more non-stop flights.[6]:31–32 The excess capacity on multi-sector routes could be filled by picking up and dropping off passengers along the way.[18]:33 It was not uncommon for carriers to schedule stops in one or more foreign countries on the way to a flight's final destination. Fifth freedom flights were common between Europe and Africa, South America and the Far East.[6]:31–32 An example of a multi-sector flight in the mid-1980s was an Alitalia service from Rome to Tokyo via Athens, Delhi, Bangkok and Hong Kong.[6]:31–32 Such routings in Asia approximated the Silk Road.[6]:31–32 Fifth freedom flights are still highly common in East Asia, particularly on routes serving Tokyo, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Between the latter two destinations, in 2004, service was provided by at least four airlines whose home base was not in either Hong Kong or Bangkok.[6]:32 The Singapore-Bangkok route has also constituted an important fifth freedom market. In the late 1990s, half of the seats available between the two cities were offered by airlines holding fifth freedom traffic rights.[14]:112 Other major markets served by fifth freedom flights can be found in Europe, South America, the Caribbean and the Tasman Sea.[6]:32–33, 36

Fifth freedom traffic rights are sought by airlines wishing to take up unserved or underserved routes, or by airlines whose flights already make technical stops at a location as allowed by the second freedom.[6]:32 Governments (e.g. Thailand) may sometimes encourage fifth freedom traffic as a way of promoting tourism, by increasing the number of seats available. In turn, though, there may be reactionary pressure to avoid liberalizing traffic rights too much in order to protect a flag carrier's commercial interests.[14]:110 By the 1990s, fifth freedom traffic rights stirred controversy in Asia because of loss-making services by airlines in the countries hosting them.[20]:16–19 Particularly in protest over US air carriers' service patterns in Asia, some nations have become less generous with regard to granting fifth freedom traffic rights, while sixth freedom traffic has grown in importance for Asian airlines.[14]:112

The Japan-United States bilateral air transport agreement of 1952 has been viewed as being particularly contentious, because unlimited fifth freedom traffic rights have been granted to designated US air carriers serving destinations in Far East Asia beyond Japan. For example, in the early 1990s, the Japanese government's refusal to permit flights on the New York City—Osaka—Sydney route led to protests by the US government and the airlines that applied to serve that route. The Japanese government countered that about 10% of the traffic on the Japan - Australia sector was third and fourth freedom traffic to and from the US, while the bilateral agreement specified that primary justification for unlimited fifth freedom traffic was to fill up aircraft carrying a majority of US-originated or US-destined traffic under third and fourth freedom rights. Japan had held many unused fifth freedom traffic rights beyond the USA. However, these were seen as being less valuable than the fifth freedom traffic rights enjoyed by US air carriers via Japan, because of the higher operating costs of Japanese airlines and geographical circumstances. Japan serves as a useful gateway to Asia for North American travelers. The US contended that Japan's favourable geographical location and its flag airlines' carriage of a sizeable volume of sixth freedom traffic via gateway cities in Japan helped to level the playing field. In 1995, the air transport agreement was updated by way of liberalizing Japanese carriers' access to US destinations, while placing selected restrictions on US air carriers.[20]:19–24

Up until the 1980's, Air India's flights to New York's JFK airport from India were all operated under fifth freedom rights. From its 1962 initiation of Boeing 707 service to Idlewild (renamed JFK in 1964) flights had intermediate stops at one Middle East airport (Kuwait, Cairo, or Beirut), then two or three European airports, the last of which was always London's Heathrow, with trans-Atlantic service operating between Heathrow and JFK. This service continued well into the Boeing 747 era. Currently, Air India's North American flights are nonstop Boeing 747 or 777 service to India, with one exception, that being a revival of fifth freedom flights operating Boeing 787 service on the Newark (EWR)- Heathrow-Hyderabad route.


Sixth freedom[edit]
The unofficial sixth freedom combines the third and fourth freedoms and is the right to carry passengers or cargo from a second country to a third country by stopping in one's own country.[6]:31 It can also be characterized as a form of the fifth freedom with an intermediate stop in the operating airline's home market. This characterization is often invoked as protectionist policy as the traffic, like fifth freedom traffic, is secondary in nature to third and fourth freedom traffic.[18]:33–34 Consequently, some nations seek to regulate sixth freedom traffic as though it were fifth freedom traffic.[19]:130 China is an example of a country that restricts sixth freedom traffic from third party countries. Specifically, it is difficult for airlines to obtain permission from China to serve the country via codeshare flights from intermediate countries.[21]

Because the nature of air services agreements is essentially a mercantilist negotiation that strives for an equitable exchange of traffic rights the outcome of a bilateral agreement may not be fully reciprocal but rather a reflection of the relative size and geographic position of two markets, especially in the case of a large country negotiating with a much smaller one.[19]:129 In exchange for a smaller state granting fifth freedom rights to a larger country, the smaller country may be able to intermediate sixth freedom traffic to onward destinations from the larger country.[19]:129–130

Seventh freedom[edit]
The unofficial seventh freedom is a variation of the fifth freedom. It is the right to carry passengers or cargo between two foreign countries without any continuing service to one's own country.[6]:31

On 2 October 2007, the United Kingdom and Singapore signed an agreement that allowed unlimited seventh freedom rights from 30 March 2008, along with a full exchange of other freedoms of the air.

Cabotage[edit]
Cabotage is the transport of goods or passengers between two points in the same country by a vessel or an aircraft registered in another country. Originally a shipping term, cabotage now covers aviation, railways, and road transport. It is "trade or navigation in coastal waters, or, the exclusive right of a country to operate the air traffic within its territory".[22]

Eighth freedom (consecutive cabotage)[edit]
The unofficial eighth freedom is the right to carry passengers or cargo between two or more points in one foreign country and is also known as cabotage.[6]:31 It is extremely rare outside Europe. The main example is the European Union, which has granted such rights to all its member states. Other examples include the Single Aviation Market (SAM) established between Australia and New Zealand in 1996; the 2001 Protocol to the Multilateral Agreement on the Liberalization of International Air Transportation (MALIAT) between Brunei, Chile, New Zealand and Singapore; United Airlines "island hopper" route, from Guam to Honolulu, able to transport passengers within the Federated States of Micronesia and the Marshall Islands, although the countries involved are closely associated with the United States, the flag of United. Such rights have usually granted only where the domestic air network is very underdeveloped. A notable instance was Pan Am's authority to fly between Frankfurt and West Berlin from the 1950s to 1980s, although political circumstances, not the state of the domestic air network, dictated this - only airlines of the Allied Powers of France, the United Kingdom and the United States had the right to land aircraft in West Berlin.[citation needed][23] In 2005, the United Kingdom and New Zealand concluded an agreement granting unlimited cabotage rights.[24] Given the distance between the two countries, the agreement can be seen as reflecting a political principle rather than an expectation that these rights will be taken up in the near future. New Zealand had exchanged eighth-freedom rights with Ireland in 1999.[25]

Ninth freedom (stand alone cabotage)[edit]
The right to carry passengers or cargo within a foreign country without continuing service to or from one's own country,[26] sometimes known as "stand alone cabotage." It differs from the aviation definition of "true cabotage," in that it does not directly relate to one's own country.

The EU agreements mentioned above also fall under this category.


See also[edit]
 
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Air India is much improved now. Its part of Star Alliance now as well.

No alliance would touch Biman with a ten foot pole in the next hundred+ years.

Its too insignificantly sized to begin with, even before we address the squalor.



You do realise that you are essentially in favour of diverting taxpayer money to an inefficient business with the intent the situation will magically improve in the future (under the same govt bureaucratic stewardship).....when this taxpayer money could be spent on much more productive causes?

Advantage to the consumer trumps advantage to the supplier, when the industry is capital intensive, very low labour intensity and is essentially propped up by taxpayer dollars, bureaucracy and insulated with little competition.

If BD has private airlines, then there is no reason why they should not be able to grab a part of the pie of Indian-Gulf air travel market.....which is magnitudes higher than BD-gulf market. Have a look at the SL airlines model for example (and it even is encumbered by some govt control too I believe ever since Emirates withdrew its stake).

Or is BD private industry so incompetent too? BD must get out of its shell of "we just cant compete, thus need to keep inefficient insulation going" even for industries that employ a tiny infinitesimal portion of its employable people.

All you lot brag about the massive low interest loans you got from China, put it to some use with the BD private aviation sector....open skies with India is a massive opportunity if you play your cards right.

There is no conspiracy to prevent BD airlines from taking a share of our gulf travel market either. If SL airlines can do it, why not BD airlines? Yes Biman would suck at it, but private airlines need to lower their margins to get entry in this competitive market....why should BD costs be a lot higher than the rest and uncompetitive? Lease a few 737s, employ the bare minimum staff and crew and pass on the savings in a budget model. Grow from there as required. Whats the issue?
Improvement wise both are still shit. I wouldn't travel in either. Same goes with pakistans national carrier. The funny thing is Pakistani career ones used to be the best in this region and used to compete globally.
 
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