India moving 150 T-72s tanks and Smerch rockets to Ladakh.

[The_Sidewinder]

China has recently shown the new HJ-12 man portable FnF ATGM ... Apart from tht even vehicle (4x4) armed with ATGMs operated by professional soldiers can prove lethal.. Something like this:

View attachment 43949




Tank transporters... (Pic from 2006.. Buner operations):

View attachment 43950

Agree that Chineese ATGM with its well trained infantrymen can be deadly. ATGM are good counter measure against MBTs, but to use them successfully infantry needs favourable conditions.
Otherwise, armies around the world would have just bought thousands of ATGMs instead of investing in costly IFV, APC & MBTs.
ATGM teams can be more effective in urban warfare, where there is lot of covers to ambuse and many routes to flee. In case of conventional warfare, the first shot always gives their position aways. After that they are dead meat to machine gun fire and heat rounds.
ATGM teams works better against an isolated opposition than to an numerically superior one.
I hope you got my point.
I am not undermining prowess of Chineese Modern ATGMs. I am just stating you battlefield realities.

 

[SBD-3]

In my opinion, India should focus on deploying highly mobile, more survivable assets in such regions as mobility is the major factor. Having mobile AT units can help a lot the available fixed assets. But a relatively heavy and immobile unit can at best be used in a defensive role. Nature mostly balances out things in Himalayas, weather stops your air support, it does the same to other side as well. This makes mobile AT assets critical in such ranges because, 1) These are difficult to be picked out by enemy air support (even if it is available) 2)They can wear an enemy out by sneak attacks and more importantly 3) They are more economical, lend more flexibility and offer rapid deployment.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[third eye]

In sub Zero temp cold areas , i would doubt that heat seekers would work well. Stationary Tank running on Auxiliary power wound not generate enough IR signature to lock on.

How have you arrived at this ?

Aux power .. for which tanks ?

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Bro knock knock .. News from 13 June 2013 on bursting tank barrels n faulty Russian ammo:

Business Standard

Also do post a link of whole fleet of Indian t-72s getting NV sights..thanks.

Mate there is a whole thread posted few months ago confirming all T72 s of IA now having NV.
Gonna tag you. wait.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Agree that Chineese ATGM with its well trained infantrymen can be deadly. ATGM are good counter measure against MBTs, but to use them successfully infantry needs favourable conditions.
Otherwise, armies around the world would have just bought thousands of ATGMs instead of investing in costly IFV, APC & MBTs.
ATGM teams can be more effective in urban warfare, where there is lot of covers to ambuse and many routes to flee. In case of conventional warfare, the first shot always gives their position aways. After that they are dead meat to machine gun fire and heat rounds.
ATGM teams works better against an isolated opposition than to an numerically superior one.
I hope you got my point.
I am not undermining prowess of Chineese Modern ATGMs. I am just stating you battlefield realities.

Wrong ... If ATGMs were useless you won't be seeing all new IFVs equipped with them all over the world.. As for machine gun fire .. Unless you are using AAGs n you know the exact location of a well camouflaged ATGM vehicle hiding behind some cover several KMs away... With the ability to quickly scoot after firing the load ...

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Wrong ... If ATGMs were useless you won't be seeing all new IFVs equipped with them all over the world.. As for machine gun fire .. Unless you are using AAGs n you know the exact location of a well camouflaged ATGM vehicle hiding behind some cover several KMs away... With the ability to quickly scoot after firing the load ...

Sir, please read the post carefully. Did I ever undermine for one second the role of ATGMs??? I am just pointing out the terrain and techtiques to ascertain why Chineese ATGM teams are not going to be as effective as rebels were in Syria. I am not talking about IFVs. In my whole post I am focusing about the role of individual man portable atgm teams. For your kind info, ATGMs when fired leaves a smoke trail, here I am talking about Javelin ATGMs. In future weapons, documantry televised in Discovery, Us marine talks about bugging out as soon as possible from place of initial shot as shooting gives their location away
Do you think chineese version is that much advanced to hide their IR signature and smoke trail from advanced sensors of a mbt, or uav flying above.
ATGM operated from IFVs are more effective, we have all seen Bradly IFV taking on and becoming victorious against Iraqi T72s.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

How have you arrived at this ?

Aux power .. for which tanks ?

every tank has two power units , one power came from running engine but when engine is shut down in order to avoid detection, the system run on 2nd auxiliary power source which could be battery or ver small generator to run the system.

 

[Didact]

A lot of speculation has been flying around in this thread. But fear not, the ancient arch-enemy of human, Didact is here to put those questions to rest:

First up, you do not move and dump 46 tanks into the (non)literal definition of nowhere. Tanks without supporting assets tend to be pacifist. The following is the direct supporting structure of a T-72 armored regiment.

(Courtesy Bharat Rakshak)

Please do note that the above list is valid only for the T-72M1 in IA. The Arjun, for example, has 62 tanks in one regiment, similar to the Tiger heavy tank battalions of WW2 Germany and NATO tank battalions of today.

As one might have noticed, that's a large force to airlift. Well, the armored brigade is 3x this, even with other assets not being considered.

Add to this the reduction in payload capacity of aircrafts in high altitude The IL-76 can only lift about 34 tons to Leh and Thoise , meaning it cannot be used for the airlift. As for Ladakh,

The IAF is impressed with the C-17’s abilities, especially after the performance it demonstrated on 20th June 2010, during trials in Ladakh. In the oxygen-thin air of that hot summer day, the IL-76 was unable to land even without a payload. The C-17, however, landed and took off with 30 tonnes on board.

Broadsword: IAF gets its first C-17 Globemaster III airlifter

Since I've pointed out the difficulty (impracality) of airlifting this armored brigade, now let me point out something from 2011:

Srinagar-Leh national highway widened for T-72 tanks
Srinagar-Leh national highway widened for T-72 tanks

This plan was leaked way back in 2011, and a certain someone I know has actually been responsible for a section of the highway widening-a painfully slowjob btw.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

It has a new variant .. Increased range,laser guided n top attack mode .. Old version was/is 2nd gen... Scored a shot load of tanks in Serbia etc.. Exported to several countries .. Like Malaysia etc
Old version specs:

Baktar Shikan
Anti-tank Guided Missile Weapon System
Baktar Shikan is a second-generation anti-tank missile weapon system which pursues the principle of optical aiming, IR tracking, remotely controlled and wire transmitted guidance signals. The system can quickly be dis-assembled into the following four sub-units, encased missile, tripod, goniometer and control box each weighing not more than 25kg thus making the system man-portable.

It can also be mounted on Cobra attack helicopters and Armored Personnel Carriers (APCs). Its long range, penetration power and a powerful anti-jamming capability form a potent defence against armored targets.
Range3,000 m
Hit Probability>90 %
Penetration Probability90 %
Depth of Penetration500mm HRA (Homogeneous Rolled Armor)
(Standard Warhead)
Depth of Penetration600 mm HRA
(Tandem Warhead)
Rate of Fire2-3 Rds per minute
Mean Flying Speed220 m/s
PropulsionSolid





Are you serious ?

i was taking about HJ-12, morover nowadays evey tank has reactive and active armour.

 

[Yeti]

I would rather see attack helicopters moved there like the Apache's which can be used to attack militants and vehicles! tanks in this modern era of warfare has little or no benefit because of the terrain and the logistics involved.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Sir, please read the post carefully. Did I ever undermine for one second the role of ATGMs??? I am just pointing out the terrain and techtiques to ascertain why Chineese ATGM teams are not going to be as effective as rebels were in Syria. I am not talking about IFVs. In my whole post I am focusing about the role of individual man portable atgm teams. For your kind info, ATGMs when fired leaves a smoke trail, here I am talking about Javelin ATGMs. In future weapons, documantry televised in Discovery, Us marine talks about bugging out as soon as possible from place of initial shot as shooting gives their location away
Do you think chineese version is that much advanced to hide their IR signature and smoke trail from advanced sensors of a mbt, or uav flying above.
ATGM operated from IFVs are more effective, we have all seen Bradly IFV taking on and becoming victorious against Iraqi T72s.

Sir have you even seen one being fired? I have .. When fired there is a small blast and no smoke trail .. From the (back) only a small red dot (flame) is visible for some time ... N than a hit..

P.S: The new HJ is similar to javelin ..

As for Iraqi rebels .. Most commonly used weapon is rpg series .. And do see the ATGM videos from Syria... Th systems are set up from miles away...

Or try the Serbian M-95? Tanks tht were destroyed by Baktar Shikans sent by Pak to the Bosnian fighters.

i was taking about HJ-12, morover nowadays evey tank has reactive and active armour.

Dude I'm not an expert but I'd suggest to read basics stuff abt weapons,etc

 

[Zarvan]

Sir have you even seen one being fired? I have .. When fired there is a small blast and no smoke trail .. From the (back) only a small red dot (flame) is visible for some time ... N than a hit..

P.S: The new HJ is similar to javelin ..

As for Iraqi rebels .. Most commonly used weapon is rpg series .. And do see the ATGM videos from Syria... Th systems are set up from miles away...

Or try the Serbian M-95? Tanks tht were destroyed by Baktar Shikans sent by Pak to the Bosnian fighters.



Dude I'm not an expert but I'd suggest to read basics stuff abt weapons,etc

And you know what Nawaz Shareef took lot off weapons in a plane with him

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Sir have you even seen one being fired? I have .. When fired there is a small blast and no smoke trail .. From the (back) only a small red dot (flame) is visible for some time ... N than a hit..

P.S: The new HJ is similar to javelin ..

As for Iraqi rebels .. Most commonly used weapon is rpg series .. And do see the ATGM videos from Syria... Th systems are set up from miles away...

Or try the Serbian M-95? Tanks tht were destroyed by Baktar Shikans sent by Pak to the Bosnian fighters.



Dude I'm not an expert but I'd suggest to read basics stuff abt weapons,etc

Sir, do you think I am naive to tell you imaginary things. Without knowing basic facts of weaponology would I have tried to explain you.
If you are not getting my points no point discussing farther.
Lets just agree to disagree.

Please do watch some video's of Javelin ATGM being fired upon by us marines.
Thank you

 

[Storm Force]

If nothing else it's s good excercise moving hundreds of tanks and rocket launchers to remote mountain regions for the Indian air force and army combined.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Sir have you even seen one being fired? I have .. When fired there is a small blast and no smoke trail .. From the (back) only a small red dot (flame) is visible for some time ... N than a hit..

P.S: The new HJ is similar to javelin ..

As for Iraqi rebels .. Most commonly used weapon is rpg series .. And do see the ATGM videos from Syria... Th systems are set up from miles away...

Or try the Serbian M-95? Tanks tht were destroyed by Baktar Shikans sent by Pak to the Bosnian fighters.



Dude I'm not an expert but I'd suggest to read basics stuff abt weapons,etc

3Rd Gen ATGM uses IR to lock target and i said in In Sub Zero temp , tank running on Auxiliary power doesn't show enough IR signatures.

Like in Desert High temp also IR seeker face problems.