In signal to China, Obama to give 2 ships to Philippines

[Dungeness]

You do not need to be a superpower to help friends.

Then give them something they need, don't patronize them with something you don't want.

 

[Genesis]

India ought to give its godavari frigates to PH/Vietnam once they are retired. A negotiation can be made to pay only for refurbishment as required. They will make a more sizeable presence compared to these US coast guard cutters and other freebies the US can give countries.

What do filipino/viet members think?

Philippines per capita: 2000+, Vietnam per capita: 2000+.

Maybe try to have a higher standard of living first. Or else it may seem foolish to sent help to a country that is doing better than you.

You do not need to be a superpower to help friends.

You kind of do when the supposed opponent is China. Hence Cambodia is rarely mentioned when people discuss China-US.

Also why Chinese support for Iraq in 1991 was useless and embarrassing.

 

[William Hung]

India ought to give its godavari frigates to PH/Vietnam once they are retired. A negotiation can be made to pay only for refurbishment as required. They will make a more sizeable presence compared to these US coast guard cutters and other freebies the US can give countries.

What do filipino/viet members think?

Excellent idea, thank you for your kind words, would love to see this materialize. Godavari class can be upgraded into Brahmaputra class isn’t it?

Also, GRSE is currently placing its bid to supply the Philippines with two new frigates. These free retired frigates can be included as a deal sweetener.

 

[Nilgiri]

Then give them something they need, don't patronize them with something you don't want.

That's up to them. They are clearly accepting what the US doesn't "want".

Besides it is none of a Chinese person's business to decide what is patronizing and what isn't....in Indo-PH relations.

Philippines per capita: 2000+, Vietnam per capita: 2000+.

Maybe try to have a higher standard of living first. Or else it may seem foolish to sent help to a country that is doing better than you.

We have helped countries way richer than both in per capita terms. Neither are we the first or only country to indulge in such. China for example helped Pakistan extensively through the 70s and 80s even though Pakistan had higher per capita income. It is about economies of scale....and when we are talking about such huge countries, there isnt a homogenous income level/industrial capability to being with.

You kind of do when the supposed opponent is China. Hence Cambodia is rarely mentioned when people discuss China-US.

Every country has the full right to help others in whatever way possible..in line with various strategic goals.

I remember Chinese defence trolls clamouring and braying that they would invade and punish Vietnam very soon when the anti-China rioting was going on....and absolutely zilch has happened.

So no one needs to mention X,Y,Z when talking about A and B...but A and B still have their right to a minimum credible deterrence and capability.

Also why Chinese support for Iraq in 1991 was useless and embarrassing.

Nothing to do with the SCS and Asian geopolitics at all. India military evolution, capablility and margins today are quite different from 1991 era China.

Excellent idea, thank you for your kind words, would love to see this materialize. Godavari class can be upgraded into Brahmaputra class isn’t it?

It sure can, but it can also be upgraded to something even more potent and modern I would imagine depending on the requirements and finances available. Outside the weapons and sensors, there may need to be a propulsion system change (marine turbines can be quite an issue)....no idea if that would be a deal-breaker.

Maybe @Penguin can give a few more details on what he thinks of this hypothetical proposal.

 

[Genesis]

We have helped countries way richer than both in per capita terms. Neither are we the first or only country to indulge in such. China for example helped Pakistan extensively through the 70s and 80s even though Pakistan had higher per capita income. It is about economies of scale....and when we are talking about such huge countries, there isnt a homogenous income level/industrial capability to being with.

China is a large country, we know exactly what a country such as this would mean. That just means more money would be needed. Not less. It certainly doesn't mean if 10 million people live well, screw the rest.

As to help in the 70s and 80s. That was when we were full on communist. A dark period.

You want to compare yourself to cultural revolution China, you go straight ahead, but in today's China, we extend loans, not aids. At least not willingly. Also never to richer countries.

Every country has the full right to help others in whatever way possible..in line with various strategic goals.

I remember Chinese defence trolls clamouring and braying that they would invade and punish Vietnam very soon when the anti-China rioting was going on....and absolutely zilch has happened.

So no one needs to mention X,Y,Z when talking about A and B...but A and B still have their right to a minimum credible deterrence and capability.

You can do whatever you want, but your politicians are obviously more realistic than you are.

If you are going to call members troll why take them seriously. If I call ISIS morons, I'm not going to quote them to try to prove a point.

I'm not against anything India wants to do. I believe we have the capability to counter it all, because we have the capability to counter India itself.

I just find it funny, that Indian members always forget where they stand, really. For many years, I felt embarrassment that China is poorer than even Iraq. Even now I am embarrassed by being poorer than Mexico, Lebanon, and such.

Nothing to do with the SCS and Asian geopolitics at all. India military evolution, capablility and margins today are quite different from 1991 era China.

But China is clearly Iraq 2.0.

 

[William Hung]

@Genesis, Vietnam has in fact asked India for help and assistance, and India has responded..e.g. training Submarine crew and fighter pilots, supplying spare parts for firgates, etc. So I’m not sure why you are arguing whether India could or should help Vietnam. It is already happening.

@Nilgiri, thanks, I also think finding replacement for the steam turbines would be the biggest problem.

When is the Indian Navy retiring the Godvari?

 

[Genesis]

@Genesis, Vietnam has in fact asked India for help and assistance, and India has responded..e.g. training Submarine crew and fighter pilots, supplying spare parts for firgates, etc. So I’m not sure why you are arguing whether India could or should help Vietnam. It is already happening.

If you read my post, I don't care if India helps or not. I just feel that it's ridicules. US ask China to contribute all the time, China doesn't do it and the reason is always the same, China has the rails, dams, and cities o built, environment to save, and people to economically empower, no money to get into your petty problems.

If you feel differently, you feel differently, but Chinese money is going into Chinese causes. Maybe selfish, but then again, we are an autocratic country.

 

[Nilgiri]

As to help in the 70s and 80s. That was when we were full on communist. A dark period.

If it was such a dark period, why continue to hang that portrait of Mao and venerate him to that same degree? All in the name of political heritage. So neither the CCP, nor PRC citizens can claim that there is some big divide in geopolitical strategy or morality between the "dark age" China and "New" China as long as it venerates and idolizes the autocrat that was instrumental in creating that "dark age" to begin with. At least in the USSR they completely broke with the Stalin cult philosophy by accepting and exposing his vicious brutality....and it is up to individuals today to remember him how they want....there is no blind State sanctioning.

Much damage was done geopolitically by that CCP regime that continues this day w.r.t relationship with India.

You helped Pakistan gain a nuclear capability...and you continue to help them today.

You should therefore not complain when we are talking about quite marginal, proposed+hypothetical assistance to PH and Vietnam from India. Because can you blame the intent? Or does that seem too foreign of a concept, that many countries are not in love with and singing praises of China 24/7? It is not our fault you have put yourself in this position with these neighbours...nor have the same level of soft power/global distance from old territorial issues as the true superpower.

You want to compare yourself to cultural revolution China, you go straight ahead, but in today's China, we extend loans, not aids. At least not willingly. Also never to richer countries.

How noble of you. Too bad no one recognises or cares about your self-declared superior morality.

You can do whatever you want, but your politicians are obviously more realistic than you are.

Vietnam and PH relations with India will only increase with time. It will take on an increasing military nature in the years to come. So don't be surprised if some of these hypothetical scenarios turn out to be true.

I just find it funny, that Indian members always forget where they stand, really. For many years, I felt embarrassment that China is poorer than even Iraq. Even now I am embarrassed by being poorer than Mexico, Lebanon, and such.

So you have some sort of inferiority complex. No one cares. If you want to keep wallowing in self pity about how China is still poorer than whichever country, thats on you. Or if its some self-perceived superiority to other countries and peoples....well what I can say....its typical Middle Kingdom center of the world attitude....which can be quite racist as I have seen from some members here.

Lots of countries worldwide are industrious, prosperous and capable of achieving greatness....no matter their size. I am never every "embarrassed" that country X, Y or Z is doing better per capita than India.....because to begin with per capita is just one metric....and secondly there are many great things about any country (including my own) that are never captured in statistics and numbers....so why should I be embarrased when there are real reasons as to why we are behind? We have accepted the failure of previous leaders of Modern India (we certainly dont post huge posters of them and seek their political heritage and legitimacy)...and we strive to improve ourselves....so that further generations can have a better life than our own....and can re-establish the true glory of our civilisation.

Embarrassment is for people who care too much about numbers, projection of a country based on those numbers and who have some deep rooted inferiority/superiority complex.

@Nilgiri, thanks, I also think finding replacement for the steam turbines would be the biggest problem.

When is the Indian Navy retiring the Godvari?

The first ship is in the process of being retired slowly....I think the ships themselves will start being formally retired one a year (or every other year) starting 2016 sometime I think.

As for steam turbine replacement, one can look at Zorya Ukraine....quite reputable and not so overpriced like the Western ones. I know there is the Marine Kaveri test bed undergoing trials in India right now...but that may be some years away from getting certified etc.

Also, GRSE is currently placing its bid to supply the Philippines with two new frigates. These free retired frigates can be included as a deal sweetener.

Yah I heard about that. Thats actually a really good idea. Hopefully the Indian team is on their A-game and there is a strong initiative from the MEA regarding this.

 

[Genesis]

If it was such a dark period, why continue to hang that portrait of Mao and venerate him to that same degree? All in the name of political heritage. So neither the CCP, nor PRC citizens can claim that there is some big divide in geopolitical strategy or morality between the "dark age" China and "New" China as long as it venerates and idolizes the autocrat that was instrumental in creating that "dark age" to begin with. At least in the USSR they completely broke with the Stalin cult philosophy by accepting and exposing his vicious brutality....and it is up to individuals today to remember him how they want....there is no blind State sanctioning.

Much damage was done geopolitically by that CCP regime that continues this day w.r.t relationship with India.

You helped Pakistan gain a nuclear capability...and you continue to help them today.

You should therefore not complain when we are talking about quite marginal, proposed+hypothetical assistance to PH and Vietnam from India. Because can you blame the intent? Or does that seem too foreign of a concept, that many countries are not in love with and singing praises of China 24/7? It is not our fault you have put yourself in this position with these neighbours...nor have the same level of soft power/global distance from old territorial issues as the true superpower.

China publicly admits the cultural revolution times were the dark ages. It's not brought up that often officially, but all the TV and movies on the periods, which surprisingly is a lot, never paints it in a good way.

Is it as realistic as it can be? No, but it certainly isn't a portrait of greatness.

You are grossly misinformed on the whole CCP narrative.

I'm not sure how many times I can mention this, but I don't give a crap if India helps or not, I just find it funny that such statements are made. If China says China is going to give aid to the UK I may raise a few eyebrows, as that is not an acceptable move in my book.

As to the portrait, he created China, he may not be Santa Clause, but he is who he is. If you feel this should be first on the agenda rather than transportation, education, health care and such. I don't know what to tell you.

How noble of you. Too bad no one recognises or cares about your self-declared superior morality.

Do you understand what noble means? If we are noble we should be poor while others rich, but we are not and we are selfish and self interested, thus, screw everyone else, we develop first.

Vietnam and PH relations with India will only increase with time. It will take on an increasing military nature in the years to come. So don't be surprised if some of these hypothetical scenarios turn out to be true.

I'm ok with that, it's your money. You can spend it however you like.

So you have some sort of inferiority complex. No one cares. If you want to keep wallowing in self pity about how China is still poorer than whichever country, thats on you. Or if its some self-perceived superiority to other countries and peoples....well what I can say....its typical Middle Kingdom center of the world attitude....which can be quite racist as I have seen from some members here.

Lots of countries worldwide are industrious, prosperous and capable of achieving greatness....no matter their size. I am never every "embarrassed" that country X, Y or Z is doing better per capita than India.....because to begin with per capita is just one metric....and secondly there are many great things about any country (including my own) that are never captured in statistics and numbers....so why should I be embarrased when there are real reasons as to why we are behind? We have accepted the failure of previous leaders of Modern India (we certainly dont post huge posters of them and seek their political heritage and legitimacy)...and we strive to improve ourselves....so that further generations can have a better life than our own....and can re-establish the true glory of our civilisation.

Embarrassment is for people who care too much about numbers, projection of a country based on those numbers and who have some deep rooted inferiority/superiority complex.

We don't wallow in self pity, we surpass people, we did that with India, with Iraq and we catapulted us right into the upper mid income economies. Within 5 yeas the countries I listed will all be surpassed.

India has 10 articles a day on why and how they will surpass China, don't even pretend this doesn't matter. You got posters running around posting how Pakistan isn't as "rich" every third post. You tell me this isn't the fact of the world.

Living in a developed world, money doesn't mean anything to you? You can live in any delusion you want, but when it comes to the world of respect, only power matters. That's why the British asks us to finance and build their nuke plants and HSR, and the US talks to us about environmental deals. They may not like us, but they will respect us.



Having said all of that, if you truly feel money respect, power don't mean crap, then I can accept it, and I will take back what I said on the subject.

But you end it with further generation will have a better life, which as it turns out needs cash again. Money can be quantified and GDP per capita, plus average wage is certainly a great way of looking at how one is performing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It either matters, or it doesn't. There is no sort of matters here.

 

[Dungeness]

China publicly admits the cultural revolution times were the dark ages. It's not brought up that often officially, but all the TV and movies on the periods, which surprisingly is a lot, never paints it in a good way.

Is it as realistic as it can be? No, but it certainly isn't a portrait of greatness.

You are grossly misinformed on the whole CCP narrative.

I'm not sure how many times I can mention this, but I don't give a crap if India helps or not, I just find it funny that such statements are made. If China says China is going to give aid to the UK I may raise a few eyebrows, as that is not an acceptable move in my book.





Do you understand what noble means? If we are noble we should be poor while others rich, but we are not and we are selfish and self interested, thus, screw everyone else, we develop first.




I'm ok with that, it's your money. You can spend it however you like.



We don't wallow in self pity, we surpass people, we did that with India, with Iraq and we catapulted us right into the upper mid income economies. Within 5 yeas the countries I listed will all be surpassed.

India has 10 articles a day on why and how they will surpass China, don't even pretend this doesn't matter. You got posters running around posting how Pakistan isn't as "rich" every third post. You tell me this isn't the fact of the world.

Living in a developed world, money doesn't mean anything to you? You can live in any delusion you want, but when it comes to the world of respect, only power matters. That's why the British asks us to finance and build their nuke plants and HSR, and the US talks to us about environmental deals. They may not like us, but they will respect us.



Having said all of that, if you truly feel money respect, power don't mean crap, then I can accept it, and I will take back what I said on the subject.

But you end it with further generation will have a better life, which as it turns out needs cash again. Money can be quantified and GDP per capita, plus average wage is certainly a great way of looking at how one is performing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It either matters, or it doesn't. There is no sort of matters here.

No need to argue with those who have this big superpower dream in heart, and subconsciously would not miss a chance to patronize others, despite their own sorry state of affair. If I were a Viet or Filipino, I would have felt insulted. But again if they don't care, why should we? China is not Superpower and we don't really dream of being one, so we don't really understand what kind of stuff they have in mind. Let it be.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

That's up to them. They are clearly accepting what the US doesn't "want".

Besides it is none of a Chinese person's business to decide what is patronizing and what isn't....in Indo-PH relations.



We have helped countries way richer than both in per capita terms. Neither are we the first or only country to indulge in such. China for example helped Pakistan extensively through the 70s and 80s even though Pakistan had higher per capita income. It is about economies of scale....and when we are talking about such huge countries, there isnt a homogenous income level/industrial capability to being with.

What is with Chinese and their bizarre mental fixation with GDP per capita?

Going by this amazing logic:

India should not provide any form of military assistance or sales to Bhutan, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Namibia, Suriname, Singapore, Seychelles and Ecuador because these nations have higher GDP per capita than India.

Pakistan should not make any military sales to Malaysia and Sri Lanka because these nations have higher GDP per capita than Pakistan.

Spoiler: Indian military sales

Transfers of major conventional weapons: sorted by recipient. Deals with deliveries or orders made for year range 1950 to 2014

Note: The ‘No. delivered/produced’ and the ‘Year(s) of deliveries’ columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. Deals in which the recipient was involved in the production of the weapon system are listed separately. The ‘Comments’ column includes publicly reported information on the value of the deal. Information on the sources and methods used in the collection of the data, and explanations of the conventions, abbreviations and acronyms, can be found at URL <http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/at_data.html>. The SIPRI Arms Transfers Database is continuously updated as new information becomes available.

Source: SIPRI Arms Transfers Database

Information generated: 18 November 2015




Recipient/ Year Year(s) No.
supplier (S) No. Weapon Weapon of order/ of delivered/
or licenser (L) ordered designation description licence deliveries produced Comments





Afghanistan

S: India 3 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter (2012) 2014 3 Cheetal version



Bangladesh

S: India 4 DHC-3 Otter Light transport ac (1971) 1971 4 Second-hand; aid

(30) Model-56 105mm Towed gun 1971 1971 (30) Second-hand

1 DHC-4 Caribou Transport aircraft 1972 1972 1 Second-hand; aid

(3) SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1972) 1973 (3) Second-hand; no. could be 4

2 Ford Patrol craft (1973) 1973-1974 2 Second-hand; Bangladeshi designation Padma



Bhutan

S: India 1 Mi-4A/Hound-A Helicopter 1968 1968 1 Second-hand; aid

(1) MPV APV (2003) 2004 (1)



Ecuador

S: India 6 Druhv Helicopter 2008 2009 6 INR2 b ($50 m) deal (incl 1 more for VIP transport); for SAR



Ghana

S: India 12 HT-2 Trainer aircraft 1958 1959 12



Guinea-Bissau

S: India 1 SDB Mk-3 Patrol craft (1992) 1993 1 Second-hand



Maldives

S: India (2) BRDM-2 Reconnaissance AV (1991) 1992 2 Second-hand; designation uncertain

(2) Ferret APV (1991) 1992 2 Second-hand; designation uncertain

1 SDB Mk-5 Patrol craft 2006 2006 1 Second-hand (but only 4 years old); Maldive designation Hurawee

1 Druhv Helicopter 2009 2010 1 Aid

1 Druhv Helicopter (2012) 2013 1 Aid



Mauritius

S: India 1 Ford Patrol craft (1974) 1974 1 Second-hand; for coast guard

1 Do-228MP MP aircraft 1989 1990 1 Aid; for coast guard

1 SDB Mk-2 Patrol craft 1993 1993 1 Second-hand; $3.5 m deal; for coast guard

1 Do-228MP MP aircraft (2004) 2004 1 For coast guard

1 Barracuda OPV 2011 2014 1 $60 m deal; for coast guard

1 Naidu Patrol craft 2014 2014 1 USD21 m deal; for coast guard



Myanmar

S: India (2) Mi-8T/Hip-C Helicopter (1999) 2000 (2) Second-hand; lease

(2) BN-2 Islander Light transport ac 2005 2006 2 Second-hand; aid; delivered despite UK warning delivery may affect UK arms sales to India

(10) Light Gun 105mm Towed gun (2006) 2006 (10) Probably Second-hand; aid for use against Indian Assamese rebels operating from Myanmar

(10) MPV APV (2006) 2006 (10) Designation uncertain; possibly Second-hand; aid for use against Indian Assamese rebels operating from Myanmar; status uncertain

(10) T-55 Tank (2006) 2006 (10) Second-hand; aid for use against Indian Assamese rebels operating from Myanmar; status uncertain

3 HMS-X ASW sonar 2013 For 3 Aung Zeya frigates from China; delivery from 2015



Namibia

S: India 2 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter 1994 1994 2 Part of $5.5 m deal; Cheetah version

2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1994 1995 2 Part of $5.5 m deal; Chetak version

1 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter 2009 2011 1 SA-315 Cheetah version

2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2009 2014 2 SA-316B Chetak version



Nepal

S: India (2) SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (1974) 1974 (2) Aid; Chetak version

52 M-43 120mm Mortar (1992) 1992 (52) Probably Second-hand; designation uncertain

2 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter 2001 2001 2 Possibly Second-hand Cheetah version; aid against Maoist rebels

10 SA-315B Lama Light helicopter (2001) 2003-2004 (10) Lancer armed version; for police; for use against Maoist rebels

2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 2001 2001 (2) Possibly Second-hand; aid against Maoist rebels

(3) Casspir APC 2002 2002 (3) Second-hand; aid against Maoist rebels; no. could be up to 31

2 Druhv Helicopter (2003) 2004 2 $12-18 m deal (incl 70% as aid); armed version

100 MPV APV (2003) 2004 (100) Aid (Nepal pays 33% of costs)

1 Druhv Helicopter 2004 2005 (1) Aid; probably armed version

24 MPV APV (2009) 2011 24 Possibly Second-hand; possibly aid; designation uncertain

1 Druhv Helicopter 2014 2014 1 Aid



Seychelles

S: India 2 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1982 1982 2 Aid; Chetak version

1 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter 1988 1988 1 Aid; Chetak version

1 SDB Mk-5 Patrol craft 2004 2005 1 Second-hand (but only 3 years old); Seychelles designation Topaz

2 Do-228MP MP aircraft (2012) 2013 1 Aid against Somali pirates

1 SDB Mk-5 Patrol craft 2013 2014 1 Second-hand; aid



Singapore

S: India 150 AMX-13/75 Light tank 1972 1973-1975 (150) Second-hand

(24) Centurion-3 Tank 1975 1975 (24) Second-hand; Centurion Mk 3/7 or Mk-5 version



South Africa

S: India 90 Centurion-3 Tank 1978 1978-1979 (90) Second-hand; armament removed before delivery; sold via private company; delivered via Spain and Jordan; for modernization in South Africa to Olifant



Sri Lanka

S: India (150) Tata Diesel Diesel engine (1985) 1987-2006 (150) For Unicorn and Unibuffel APC produced in Sri Lanka

1 Sukanya OPV 2000 2000 1 Second-hand; for use against LTTE rebels; plan for 1 more cancelled after Indian change in policy towards Sri Lanka-LTTE conflict; Sri Lankan designation Sayura

2 Indra Air search radar 2005 2006 2 Possibly Second-hand; aid against LTTE rebels

2 Indra Air search radar 2007 2007 2 Aid

1 Vikram OPV 2007 2007 1 Second-hand; aid; Sri Lankan designation Sagara

1 Vikram OPV 2008 2008 1 Second-hand

2 Naidu Patrol craft (2013)



Suriname

S: India 3 SA-316B Alouette-3 Light helicopter (2009) 2013 3 $15-30 m deal (financed by Indian credit); Chetak version



Unknown country

S: India 2 Pipavav 100m OPV 2012 For West African country (probably Nigeria); option on 2 more; delivery by 2015

Trade Registers

USA should not provide any form of military assistance or sales to Australia, Qatar and Singapore because they have higher GDP per capita


Maybe this Chinese member believes current HQ-9 deal with Turkey failed to materialize because China has lower GDP per capita than Turkey.

There is another thread where Chinese member ruined a thread with unrelated GDP per capita comparisons

Counting the Cost - India's rising power in Africa | Page 3


These are some amazing gems of logic we people on pdf get to witness in this mental asylum: "China and Far east" section, eh @William Hung ?

 

[Nilgiri]

China publicly admits the cultural revolution times were the dark ages. It's not brought up that often officially, but all the TV and movies on the periods, which surprisingly is a lot, never paints it in a good way.

Is it as realistic as it can be? No, but it certainly isn't a portrait of greatness.

You are grossly misinformed on the whole CCP narrative.

I'm not sure how many times I can mention this, but I don't give a crap if India helps or not, I just find it funny that such statements are made. If China says China is going to give aid to the UK I may raise a few eyebrows, as that is not an acceptable move in my book.

As to the portrait, he created China, he may not be Santa Clause, but he is who he is. If you feel this should be first on the agenda rather than transportation, education, health care and such. I don't know what to tell you.

OK fair enough.

Do you understand what noble means? If we are noble we should be poor while others rich, but we are not and we are selfish and self interested, thus, screw everyone else, we develop first.

Thats a very skewed definition of nobility...and anyway I was being sarcastic/tongue in cheek.

We don't wallow in self pity, we surpass people, we did that with India, with Iraq and we catapulted us right into the upper mid income economies. Within 5 yeas the countries I listed will all be surpassed.

Don't care. Whats funny is that you feel/felt embarrased "certain" countries were ahead of you...and many are ahead of you today still. True middle kingdomer at heart I suppose.

But thanks for clearing it up that it is a superiority complex after all.

India has 10 articles a day on why and how they will surpass China, don't even pretend this doesn't matter. You got posters running around posting how Pakistan isn't as "rich" every third post. You tell me this isn't the fact of the world.

10 articles a day? LOL. I barely see once a week where India toots its own horn and even more rare to that level you claim. I should know, I follow all the main Indian media newsgroups daily. The last ones regarded surpassing China in greenfield FDI and growth rate....and both were matter of fact....there is no "how" being projected in such articles.

Plus how exactly does it matter? Money is the only thing that matters to you? A certain crowd indulging in the online trash talking somehow supports your viewpoint at some fundamental level? How about the many members that dont indulge in it from a mere numbers perspective...or at all?

Those Chinese trolls that were saying Vietnam would be fully invaded by 2014 end in a matter of a few days....do they represent the views of every Chinese person?

It isn't the fact of the world, because simply go and ask people everywhere what they think when they think of China.....no one cares you were embarrased that you were behind Iraq or Lebanon or whoever and that you are surpassing them in some metric per capita. Lots of Chinese people still live in strong relative poverty, even outright squalor...and "made in China" still carries such a dirty/cheap image with it worldwide. Where China is clearly ahead compared to some country (say in Africa)...they are simply given the image of yet another resource extractor/neo-coloniser. These are not good images/perceptions. They will take a whole generation or two to change in the minds of people worldwide, in any appreciable way.

So hardly anyone cares about you surpassing A,B or C in per capita terms....when overall development and perception is much more expansive, diverse and nuanced than that. In fact I doubt most Chinese people care either, since the majority have to make a living day to day and dont have time for such online forum trash talk and comparisons to feel better about their miserable (but maybe less miserable than before) lives.

Living in a developed world, money doesn't mean anything to you? You can live in any delusion you want, but when it comes to the world of respect, only power matters. That's why the British asks us to finance and build their nuke plants and HSR, and the US talks to us about environmental deals. They may not like us, but they will respect us.

Having said all of that, if you truly feel money respect, power don't mean crap, then I can accept it, and I will take back what I said on the subject.

But you end it with further generation will have a better life, which as it turns out needs cash again. Money can be quantified and GDP per capita, plus average wage is certainly a great way of looking at how one is performing. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It either matters, or it doesn't. There is no sort of matters here.

Sure it means something of course. It depends on the person I guess where the balance lies. It just doesn't mean everything. You certainly seem to care too much about China's perception, amount of respect, power etc etc...to the level you want to micromanage how others feel about China. You are free to feel that way, no one's stopping you. Its that superiority complex coming through again basically...."embarrassment" that whatever country is ahead of you still...when they really shouldn't be in your opinion (for whatever reason).

 

[Genesis]

Don't care. Whats funny is that you feel/felt embarrased "certain" countries were ahead of you...and many are ahead of you today still. True middle kingdomer at heart I suppose.

But thanks for clearing it up that it is a superiority complex after all.

Was it ever in doubt? American exceptionalism, Chinese exceptionalism. I even seen people saying one Filipino is worth 10 Chinese. So Filipino victory in all.

I'm no sure what field you are in, but in my field, if you are unsure of yourself, GTFO.

10 articles a day? LOL. I barely see once a week where India toots its own horn and even more rare to that level you claim. I should know, I follow all the main Indian media newsgroups daily. The last ones regarded surpassing China in greenfield FDI and growth rate....and both were matter of fact....there is no "how" being projected in such articles.

Plus how exactly does it matter? Money is the only thing that matters to you? A certain crowd indulging in the online trash talking somehow supports your viewpoint at some fundamental level? How about the many members that dont indulge in it from a mere numbers perspective...or at all?

Those Chinese trolls that were saying Vietnam would be fully invaded by 2014 end in a matter of a few days....do they represent the views of every Chinese person?

I'm not going to find the articles, but if you say so. It's an exaggeration either way.

Oh and money isn't the only thing that matters. However, money improves lives, saves lives, and it can do a lot of other fun things.

My Indian posters statement, isn't really saying it represents all, but a large section of those people exist.

Their opinion of China isn't good, but it's not bad as in looking down, it's bad as in threatened and different. I like the latter a lot better than even blind love.

It isn't the fact of the world, because simply go and ask people everywhere what they think when they think of China.....no one cares you were embarrased that you were behind Iraq or Lebanon or whoever and that you are surpassing them in some metric per capita. Lots of Chinese people still live in strong relative poverty, even outright squalor...and "made in China" still carries such a dirty/cheap image with it worldwide. Where China is clearly ahead compared to some country (say in Africa)...they are simply given the image of yet another resource extractor/neo-coloniser. These are not good images/perceptions. They will take a whole generation or two to change in the minds of people worldwide, in any appreciable way.

So hardly anyone cares about you surpassing A,B or C in per capita terms....when overall development and perception is much more expansive, diverse and nuanced than that. In fact I doubt most Chinese people care either, since the majority have to make a living day to day and dont have time for such online forum trash talk and comparisons to feel better about their miserable (but maybe less miserable than before) lives.

This is a particular type of forum. Military. How would you like to discuss, opinions? Or hard facts. Most people certainly don't care, China or otherwise. But this forum, you bet your *** they do. Which is where this debate is happening.

China's image isn't good, certainly not, once they looked at us as a joke, but now it's hate. I prefer hate. People hate Lebron, people don't hate Scalabrane, cause who cares who he is.

So yea, it's the fact of the world to this crowd of the people, you don't see me screaming this in the occupy movement.

Sure it means something of course. It depends on the person I guess where the balance lies. It just doesn't mean everything. You certainly seem to care too much about China's perception, amount of respect, power etc etc...to the level you want to micromanage how others feel about China. You are free to feel that way, no one's stopping you. Its that superiority complex coming through again basically...."embarrassment" that whatever country is ahead of you still...when they really shouldn't be in your opinion (for whatever reason).

Based on your experience on this forum, where do you think that line is. Based on what I seen, it's not to the not caring side.

Superiority complex is not bad, in fact the foundation of Capitalism, competition, feeds on it. If you are a socialist, it would make more sense.

What is with Chinese and their bizarre mental fixation with GDP per capita?

Going by this amazing logic:

India should not provide any form of military assistance or sales to Bhutan, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Namibia, Suriname, Singapore, Seychelles and Ecuador because these nations have higher GDP per capita than India.

Pakistan should not make any military sales to Malaysia and Sri Lanka because these nations have higher GDP per capita than Pakistan.

Did I say sales, I said aid. I support sales to richer countries. That makes sense and is encouraged. If you can't tell the difference between aid and sale, then your logic is the one that needs work.

The whole debate is on aid, you need to read more carefully.

These are some amazing gems of logic we people on pdf get to witness in the mental asylum: "China and Far east" section, eh @William Hung ?

China Turkey is again sales, not aid. Your example is investment of India Africa, which is not relevant to per capita as investment is to earn, not to give away.


For someone feeling so superior, you sure make some basic mistakes.

 

[Nilgiri]

Was it ever in doubt? American exceptionalism, Chinese exceptionalism. I even seen people saying one Filipino is worth 10 Chinese. So Filipino victory in all.

I'm no sure what field you are in, but in my field, if you are unsure of yourself, GTFO.

OK. I agree that such attitudes are found everywhere in the world....and even among the most calm, reasonable people at certain times. You seem like one of those people...and I like to think of myself as one. Thats why lets agree to disagree on various issues and move on. We fundamentally view somethings quite differently, though I agree with a lot of what you are trying to say (though may not agree how you are trying to go about saying it).

I am an engineer btw. Whats ur field?

I'm not going to find the articles, but if you say so. It's an exaggeration either way.

Oh and money isn't the only thing that matters. However, money improves lives, saves lives, and it can do a lot of other fun things.

My Indian posters statement, isn't really saying it represents all, but a large section of those people exist.

Their opinion of China isn't good, but it's not bad as in looking down, it's bad as in threatened and different. I like the latter a lot better than even blind love.

OK if you say so.

This is a particular type of forum. Military. How would you like to discuss, opinions? Or hard facts. Most people certainly don't care, China or otherwise. But this forum, you bet your *** they do. Which is where this debate is happening.

China's image isn't good, certainly not, once they looked at us as a joke, but now it's hate. I prefer hate. People hate Lebron, people don't hate Scalabrane, cause who cares who he is.

So yea, it's the fact of the world to this crowd of the people, you don't see me screaming this in the occupy movement.

People are ultimately emotional beings buddy. I have many times tried to bring cold hard facts, but 99% of the people in real life eyes glaze over. That doesn't mean I want to completely resort to their level to try make them understand, because they wont....and what they say sometimes is also quite right (from my view)....broken clock right twice like you said in the other thread.

Thats why I have actually quite enjoyed this exchange we had tonight...since you seem quite structured and organised in your viewpoint.

Now I remeber that you were the guy from before in that other thread when we were discussing the political heritage of the CCP/KMT after Sun Yat Sen. The thread got deleted....so I dont think you saw one of my posts asking if there is an online resource (scan/translation) regarding the treaty that was signed between Qing empire and Nationalist forces.

Based on your experience on this forum, where do you think that line is. Based on what I seen, it's not to the not caring side.

Superiority complex is not bad, in fact the foundation of Capitalism, competition, feeds on it. If you are a socialist, it would make more sense.

Yah but I strive for balance. I cannot be purely capitalist or socialist. Of course this does not help me in explaining to you where I exactly stand...and neither would be the case vice versa I think. For that we would have to know each other much longer...maybe over time on this forum it will help...who knows.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Inside BRP Ramon Alcaraz


BRP Ramon Alcaraz (all photos : Inquirer)

THE BRP Ramon Alcaraz (PF-16) is the Philippine Navy’s biggest warships and the second ship of the Gregorio del Pilar class.


The ship was commissioned by the Philippine Navy last 2013 after being acquired under the Excess Defense Articles and Foreign Assistance Act. Previously, it served the US Coast Guard Hamilton-class cutter from 1968 to 2012 as USCGC Dallas.


Navy public affairs chief Commander Lued Lincuna said the ship will be one of the Navy’s assets to be used for seaborne security during the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation next week.


The ship is commanded by Captain Juario Marayag. It has been used for relief transport during Super Typhoon Yolanda and has participated in several exercises with different countries. It is used for patrolling Philippine waters including its claims in the disputed West Philippine Sea (South China Sea).


Below are some of the photos during the visit of Philippine defense media onboard the ship recently.


The BRP Ramon Alcaraz and its bridge and reception area.
(Inquirer)

Source: Philippines Military Thread, Economy , News and Updates | Page 102