IDEAS 2018: PAKISTAN NAVY IS NEGOTIATING FOR ANKA-S UAV

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I looked at this further. As with the Chinese, the transfer of these systems would be a violation of MTCR, which Turkey is a signatory of. Further, all the US based subsystems of Anka would be not be transferable to Pakistan. Pakistan Navy is better off to look for options it can build locally and maintain and sustain.

The Anka-S actually falls within the MTCR, but under Category II (case-by-case discretion).

Remember, the MTCR's range cap -- <300 km -- is tied to a payload limit of 500 kg. The Anka-S' maximum payload is 200 kg. The MTCR's hard limit (<300 km irrespective of payload) is on cruise missiles and rockets, but it affords more flexibility for UAVs, provided the payload is less than 500 kg. This is how the Chinese, Israelis and now Turks are operating in the market.

 

[cabatli_53]

US and Israeli components, which will be a nightmare for us later. Case in point is the Combat Helicopter, which is now stalled / stuck due to US engine

Further, all the US based subsystems of Anka would be not be transferable to Pakistan.

What a professional analyse. I wonder What’s next?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

What a professional analyse. I wonder What’s next?

While you have the right to wave your country's flag, cant we retain the right of our own opinion, or we should just bow down to the new Turkish masters?

It is not just about the UAV, it is about the payloads.

When you dont have a defense, you just lead to sarcasm? How is this different from the Chinese fan boys? Have a heart. Turkey and Pakistan goes back a long time, but we dont have to agree to everything you have to say. Some of us are not so stupid as you may think. I am sure Pakistan Navy also has smart officers who can do long term analysis of the high price tag of Anka vs. what challenges the program may pose. Despite my opinion, if TAI succeeds in selling their bird (they have not been successful with Pakistan Air Force or Pakistan Army), then good luck to them.

The Anka-S actually falls within the MTCR, but under Category II (case-by-case discretion).

Remember, the MTCR's range cap -- <300 km -- is tied to a payload limit of 500 kg. The Anka-S' maximum payload is 200 kg. The MTCR's hard limit (<300 km irrespective of payload) is on cruise missiles and rockets, but it affords more flexibility for UAVs, provided the payload is less than 500 kg. This is how the Chinese, Israelis and now Turks are operating in the market.

Installation of SATCOM terminal, as they openly describe, makes it rangeless and violation of MTCR. This is why Pakistan Navy will not be able to acquire this bird, or will only receive Line of Sight telemetry which is useless in our scenario.

The actual solution is a locally developed system, or someone ready to transfer IP rights and build the system locally. I highly doubt that Turks would be willing to let go of their IP for the project.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Installation of SATCOM terminal, as they openly describe, makes it rangeless and violation of MTCR. This is why Pakistan Navy will not be able to acquire this bird, or will only receive Line of Sight telemetry which is useless in our scenario.

The actual solution is a locally developed system, or someone ready to transfer IP rights and build the system locally. I highly doubt that Turks would be willing to let go of their IP for the project.

MTCR Cat. 1 rules forbid the transfer of a UAV that can carry 500+ kg past 300 km, but a UAV that can fly beyond 300 km with less than 500 kg payload falls under Cat. 2 (i.e. exporter's discretion). So the Anka-S as-is (with SATCOM) can be sold to Pakistan under Cat. 2

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

While you have the right to wave your country's flag, cant we retain the right of our own opinion, or we should just bow down to the new Turkish masters?

It is not just about the UAV, it is about the payloads.

When you dont have a defense, you just lead to sarcasm? How is this different from the Chinese fan boys? Have a heart. Turkey and Pakistan goes back a long time, but we dont have to agree to everything you have to say. Some of us are not so stupid as you may think. I am sure Pakistan Navy also has smart officers who can do long term analysis of the high price tag of Anka vs. what challenges the program may pose. Despite my opinion, if TAI succeeds in selling their bird (they have not been successful with Pakistan Air Force or Pakistan Army), then good luck to them.



Installation of SATCOM terminal, as they openly describe, makes it rangeless and violation of MTCR. This is why Pakistan Navy will not be able to acquire this bird, or will only receive Line of Sight telemetry which is useless in our scenario.

The actual solution is a locally developed system, or someone ready to transfer IP rights and build the system locally. I highly doubt that Turks would be willing to let go of their IP for the project.

Pasham!!! You may be little too harsh on the Turkish systems/folks for you might know them too well!!!!! May be the boys know how to circumvent the loop holes!!!! Let them try....

 

[War Thunder]

that doesn't make sense , we already purchase Wing Long II ..

Multiple platforms and a wide variety of sensors in the sky. Good for swarming and overwhelming ground based and airborne defenses alike.
Harder to jam and harder to counter...

Pasham!!! You may be little too harsh on the Turkish systems/folks for you might know them too well!!!!! May be the boys know how to circumvent the loop holes!!!! Let them try....

Some people are too dependent on the matrix, they can't comprehend how things work outside the system, and outside the so called rules and laws.
You can;t always argue with them, but let them live in their little world of constraints.

 

[cabatli_53]

While you have the right to wave your country's flag, cant we retain the right of our own opinion, or we should just bow down to the new Turkish masters?

It is not just about the UAV, it is about the payloads.

When you dont have a defense, you just lead to sarcasm? How is this different from the Chinese fan boys? Have a heart. Turkey and Pakistan goes back a long time, but we dont have to agree to everything you have to say. Some of us are not so stupid as you may think. I am sure Pakistan Navy also has smart officers who can do long term analysis of the high price tag of Anka vs. what challenges the program may pose. Despite my opinion, if TAI succeeds in selling their bird (they have not been successful with Pakistan Air Force or Pakistan Army), then good luck to them.



Installation of SATCOM terminal, as they openly describe, makes it rangeless and violation of MTCR. This is why Pakistan Navy will not be able to acquire this bird, or will only receive Line of Sight telemetry which is useless in our scenario.

The actual solution is a locally developed system, or someone ready to transfer IP rights and build the system locally. I highly doubt that Turks would be willing to let go of their IP for the project.

Very strange and nonsense words. I expected you to tell the engineering details, working principle of high tech devices instead of claiming such things with troll like behavior. It has nothing to do with waving Turkish flag or describing a simple matter with the words like “master” Turks, “Bowing down” of Pakistan, or imputing “stupid” word for people who think opposite to what you are talking. Actually, Commencing to a response with such a harsh way as if you feed the pain instead of introducing the level of your knowledge as a professional to back up your claims is certainly reflecting well the reason of your intention that you name as “opinion”. That is not the first time I have quoted you with very similar reason. It is certain for me now that You like talking about the subjects bigger than your limits without showing any source/info worth a penny when It is about Turkish matters so professional tag with such simple/nonsense comments containing full of personal assumption do not suit the nature of being professional, nothing close to reality. Noone forces you to believe anything until you come up with a info/source proving adverse. Your words typed under professional rank can never be considered enough to be a reliable thing while talking this strange way. I personally wanted you to educate all of us about some engineering details of those US and Israeli hardwares on Turkish drones, then let us realize whether It is a rightfull opinion or bullsh@t. That is the only way you can gain respect. Otherwise, It is impossible to receive your words even serious.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

MTCR Cat. 1 rules forbid the transfer of a UAV that can carry 500+ kg past 300 km, but a UAV that can fly beyond 300 km with less than 500 kg payload falls under Cat. 2 (i.e. exporter's discretion). So the Anka-S as-is (with SATCOM) can be sold to Pakistan under Cat. 2

Every Rule or Law has gray area...May be those can be exploited.

While you have the right to wave your country's flag, cant we retain the right of our own opinion, or we should just bow down to the new Turkish masters?

It is not just about the UAV, it is about the payloads.

When you dont have a defense, you just lead to sarcasm? How is this different from the Chinese fan boys? Have a heart. Turkey and Pakistan goes back a long time, but we dont have to agree to everything you have to say. Some of us are not so stupid as you may think. I am sure Pakistan Navy also has smart officers who can do long term analysis of the high price tag of Anka vs. what challenges the program may pose. Despite my opinion, if TAI succeeds in selling their bird (they have not been successful with Pakistan Air Force or Pakistan Army), then good luck to them.



Installation of SATCOM terminal, as they openly describe, makes it rangeless and violation of MTCR. This is why Pakistan Navy will not be able to acquire this bird, or will only receive Line of Sight telemetry which is useless in our scenario.

The actual solution is a locally developed system, or someone ready to transfer IP rights and build the system locally. I highly doubt that Turks would be willing to let go of their IP for the project.

Parts of ANKA are being produced at PAC...May be a complete domestic version specific to Pakistan can be produced circumventing MTCR...

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Very strange and nonsense words. I expected you to tell the engineering details, working principle of high tech devices instead of claiming such things with troll like behavior. It has nothing to do with waving Turkish flag or describing a simple matter with the words like “master” Turks, “Bowing down” of Pakistan, or imputing “stupid” word for people who think opposite to what you are talking. Actually, Commencing to a response with such a harsh way as if you feed the pain instead of introducing the level of your knowledge as a professional to back up your claims is certainly reflecting well the reason of your intention that you name as “opinion”. That is not the first time I have quoted you with very similar reason. It is certain for me now that You like talking about the subjects bigger than your limits without showing any source/info worth a penny when It is about Turkish matters so professional tag with such simple/nonsense comments containing full of personal assumption do not suit the nature of being professional, nothing close to reality. Noone forces you to believe anything until you come up with a info/source proving adverse. Your words typed under professional rank can never be considered enough to be a reliable thing while talking this strange way. I personally wanted you to educate all of us about some engineering details of those US and Israeli hardwares on Turkish drones, then let us realize whether It is a rightfull opinion or bullsh@t. That is the only way you can gain respect. Otherwise, It is impossible to receive your words even serious.

Rude you are. Did i strike a cord, or said something I was not supposed to reveal? However, You have the right to spew whatever BS you like. Sadly, you will not have any problem if i was taking apart a Greek UAV, or cutting down a Chinese system? I marvel your Turks. You are so loyal to country, even blindly so. It is something to be admired. I, however, will have my opinions that are formed over decades of experience. If you dont like them, or whatever you want to say to confront the poor old me, it doesn't matter young man. Some here will value, and others will not agree. More than once people have eventually found out what I have said months before.

Multiple platforms and a wide variety of sensors in the sky. Good for swarming and overwhelming ground based and airborne defenses alike.
Harder to jam and harder to counter...



Some people are too dependent on the matrix, they can't comprehend how things work outside the system, and outside the so called rules and laws.
You can;t always argue with them, but let them live in their little world of constraints.

Matrix you say? There is nothing outside the system.

Pasham!!! You may be little too harsh on the Turkish systems/folks for you might know them too well!!!!! May be the boys know how to circumvent the loop holes!!!! Let them try....

At my age, the parlance sometimes slip me. Hope you are well.

 

[CHI RULES]

Rude you are. Did i strike a cord, or said something I was not supposed to reveal? However, You have the right to spew whatever BS you like. Sadly, you will not have any problem if i was taking apart a Greek UAV, or cutting down a Chinese system? I marvel your Turks. You are so loyal to country, even blindly so. It is something to be admired. I, however, will have my opinions that are formed over decades of experience. If you dont like them, or whatever you want to say to confront the poor old me, it doesn't matter young man. Some here will value, and others will not agree. More than once people have eventually found out what I have said months before.



Matrix you say? There is nothing outside the system.



At my age, the parlance sometimes slip me. Hope you are well.

Sir as a layman what I have found from this topic and in the past your professional opinion is much accurate however your expression is bit harsh. Perhaps Turkish friend here has misjudged your professional opinion. Further don't you think if there is a will, there is a way. In case of Anka may be PN showing some interest and they may find loop holes to counter MTCR. Further interest does not mean that deal is finalized.

However I request your views about T129 deal, what are your views can Turkey if not gets required permissions for engine exports may replace existing engine with any European based engine rather than cancelling the deal with Pak.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir as a layman what I have found from this topic and in the past your professional opinion is much accurate however your expression is bit harsh. Perhaps Turkish friend here has misjudged your professional opinion. Further don't you think if there is a will, there is a way. In case of Anka may be PN showing some interest and they may find loop holes to counter MTCR. Further interest does not mean that deal is finalized.

However I request your views about T129 deal, what are your views can Turkey if not gets required permissions for engine exports may replace existing engine with any European based engine rather than cancelling the deal with Pak.

Truth is often harsh. If someone was cutting down Baktar Shikan 1, it may seem harsh to you. I talk about systems, and these people attack people and their opinions. This is the difference. Nobody counters the arguments.

T129 is one of the best decisions I have seen so far. It is an excellent machine, but US is holding it back as leverage for Zulu Cobra. Turkey will eventually find a non ITAR engine, and trial their Helo again, and i hope it passes the field trials.

 

[War Thunder]

Matrix you say? There is nothing outside the system.

Everything that is real and free is outside the system.
While there is nothing but self inflicted slavery of intellect, and a tunnel vision within the system.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Everything that is real and free is outside the system.
While there is nothing but self inflicted slavery of intellect, and a tunnel vision within the system.

Yes, I admire your freedom, and broad vision.

 

[-------]

Truth is often harsh. If someone was cutting down Baktar Shikan 1, it may seem harsh to you. I talk about systems, and these people attack people and their opinions. This is the difference. Nobody counters the arguments.

T129 is one of the best decisions I have seen so far. It is an excellent machine, but US is holding it back as leverage for Zulu Cobra. Turkey will eventually find a non ITAR engine, and trial their Helo again, and i hope it passes the field trials.

Truth? Your opinion isn't fact. Just admit that you like to play on Turkish Nationalism, which can be blind. On Cabatli's case, there is no other I know that has followed the Anka project as closely as he has, so, he has way more authority on the subject matter than your opinion..

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Truth? Your opinion isn't fact. Just admit that you like to play on Turkish Nationalism, which can be blind. On Cabatli's case, there is no other I know that has followed the Anka project as closely as he has, so, he has way more authority on the subject matter than your opinion..

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I call my statements opinion to avoid unnecessary controversies. I am very familiar with Anka program, and its structural parts PAC made. I am aware of its limitations, and have seen its trials. I am familiar why it was rejected by Pakistan Air Force and Army in their evaluations. I am aware of most of its sub-components and its origins. There are people who read magazines, and there are people who have deep access to both the buyers and sellers. Its for you to decide who YOU want to believe. I maintain that it is a bad choice for Pakistan Navy. This is my opinion.