Have The Paf Disclaimers Sabotaged The Sale Of The JF17's!

[Tipu7]

@Bratva @Bilal Khan 777

Sir, we have conducted Six tests of Raad so far.
This Missile is meant to be carried by Jf17.
There was a rumor that latest test conducted early this year was from Jf17.
The issue of Ground Clearance is very much visible.

Will we undergo modification in Jf17? Like in Landing gears?
Will we make Raad more smart to be launched from Jf17?
Or there is no issue at first place, as Raad was meant to be carried under the wings.
With installation of IFR, and carrying Drop tank under the fuselage, Jf17 ''should be'' able to carry them under the wings.

Hi,

Okay---thank you---my kids are in their teens at this time---and I am too far away from retirement.

Its a fake ID Sir.................. Some one who have some personal issue with @Moonlight

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir,

The issue is with the paf managers---it is not about the brave men----even though they may think they are being attacked.

You chose the job when you signed on the dotted line---you got paid to do the job---and you got the benefits.

But in return you only gave us your strutting around and peacok postures---.

You have sabotaged the procurement of a right aircraft since the 80's---you have made blunders one after the other by not picking the right aircraft in time and allowing the enemy to pick that aircraft.

Case in point---first time it was the mirage 2000 in the 80's---yuoiu got the free f16's and you had the chance to get the new mirage 2000's----yet you strutted around with your supposed number one---and allowed the enemy to get the number two.

Then you got sanctioned and the number two becaem superior and you had nowhere to go.

In the early 2000---ie in 2003-05 you had the chance a second time---at Rafale and you screwed it up again.

You had the funds to buy 72 F16's---which would mean that you could get around 48 Rafales----.

And if you were worried about the cost of operation---you could have cut down the numbers to 40----the money for the 8 aircraft---you could have deposited in a fix deposit account at 8% interest of that time and that interest would have covered the maintenance cost of the aircraft above and beyond it would cost to maintain an F16.

Again you failed to do that---and jumped for the F16's---.

tHne the money that the nation gave you for the F16's----you donated it for earthquake---you had NO RIGHT TO DO THAT---. Money for weapons is money for weapons and not for charity.

Tell me Mr Khan---if your mother had cancer---and your dad gave you the money and said---Khan---go to the medicine store and buy these shots for your mom otherwise she might die---and on your way---you give the money to a state owned charity asking money for disaster relief.

None of you would do that if the situation arose in that manner---but the nations funds are ready to be squandered.

You were also planning to build your own aircraft---and you wanted the same country to sell you the electronics package as well---.

You sabotaged their multi billionsof dollars sale of the Rafale that they desperately needed---and you expected that they will fulfill a 1/2 billion dollars sale---.

Even if you had bought 30 Rafales---you would have committed a coupe de grace on the enemy---because you JF17 would have been equipped with the best electronics package that there was---.

My man---as you are a fighter pilot----you decide issues of life and death in milliseconds---I am a car salesman---I have to decide in a similar time where my sales is going---where the customer mind is and what is his needs and desires are and how can I commit him to buy from me NOW and what he is thinking and why is he thinking that way---so that he may walk over to the next dealership.

I have to have a counter for every objection thrown at me---and respond back in a manner very pleasant and friendly----making it look like that is what the customer wanted to say---.

I am not looking at one sale---I am looking at multiple sales---because that person has a brother a sister a wife a daughter a son he has relatives and friends---I am looking at a relationship with that person---why---because buying a car is a very traumatic experience here in the U S----. Once your relationship is established---after that all the sales are a cakewalk.

What I am saying is---that the air force chose to do the job of car sales people---you did not recognize the after effects and REACTION to not going for the Rafale.

From the mouth of victory---you pulled out agony of defeat---not one time---not two time---not three times---not four times---not five times but six times and counting in the last 30 years.

Mr. Khan---you are feeling the heat---because your feet have not been held onto the fire for your follies.

The nation worships you second to god----and that has muddled their judgement to see the true picture.

MK, i respect your opinion, and choose not to indulge with you any further. I am not here to get into rhetorical and policy arguments. What you is say is simple over simplification of many historical events. Since you have limited data, you are bound to make the assertions and assumptions that you have. I shall leave you at those.

@Bratva @Bilal Khan 777

Sir, we have conducted Six tests of Raad so far.
This Missile is meant to be carried by Jf17.
There was a rumor that latest test conducted early this year was from Jf17.
The issue of Ground Clearance is very much visible.

Will we undergo modification in Jf17? Like in Landing gears?
Will we make Raad more smart to be launched from Jf17?
Or there is no issue at first place, as Raad was meant to be carried under the wings.
With installation of IFR, and carrying Drop tank under the fuselage, Jf17 ''should be'' able to carry them under the wings.

View attachment 304065 View attachment 304066 View attachment 304068 View attachment 304069


Its a fake ID Sir.................. Some one who have some personal issue with @Moonlight

Lets hold off the JFT SOW topic for a while please.

Hello Sir ; Could you please share your views about J 10

Why has PAF not gone for it

J10 is a good aircraft, but not in line with PAF plans.

 

[leftfordead]

I have all the praise for the analysis and the criticism here, but calling us fools, idiots, and morons is constructive? how?
You all must be clear that you will never be told what is actually going on and that is due to secrecy that must be maintained around operations and technical plans. the way of life in US and their president is no metric for us. You have no idea what they get away with.

I am not appreciating him calling anyone fools , moron or idiots , they are there and we are here, so there Is a reason for it
plus I understand the secrecy too , but what he think that PAF leadership failed to acknowledge the threat posses by our neighbors and their Airforce .. but I am sure so does the leadership of PAF but he probably looking for more detail information .. which I doubt he might get unless you have inside information.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

For reminders, JF17 was to replace F6, A5, F7, and Mirage. For all those 4 aircraft types, JF17 exceeds PAF requirements and expectations. Aside from the hype and online speculation, JFT is a really good aircraft, and most of you will enjoy whats coming in the future.


When one has a theoretical aircraft, they come up with such childish animations for self gratification. Don't be bothered my friend, by the time TEJAS comes around, it will be obsolete already.

Sir,
PAF's thinking was very positive by having one aircraft in place of four. However the issue is how capable would the planned aircraft be at the time it is fully integrated?

1) Once JF-17 production started PAF decided that this aircraft would not replace the fighters on one on one basis, which added to the initial increase in production costs.

2) China was not interested in this aircraft because of its size it lacked the legs that China wished for.

No doubt this aircraft is really good compared to those fighter aircraft it has replaced or is going to do. Do you think if PAF decides to in crease the numbers then it might help Pakistan compensate for the limited capabilities it has compared to 4+ fighter aircraft of today?

Cant answer all of this, but ARM is MAR-1, while other options are under consideration. ASM is C802A, integrated and tested, and on order, so is PL5 SRAAM. Next gen TVC AAM under consideration. Stand-off weapons i think you mean Air to Ground weapons, not able to reveal, at least 5 options already proven, 2 under study. Precise munitions cannot reveal, 3 options under study, one already integrated.

Program is coming along fine. The discouraging news is propaganda. Pay no heed.



Disgruntled, or recently retired? Please take your skepticism elsewhere. With one sentence you discount the whole airforce? Is that arrogance, or vanity?

Sir,
What PAF is trying to do is next to impossible, we all know that there will be technological improvements day by day. New weapons at better price would continue to be manufactured. PAF should have stuck with one or two manufacturers for the first 100 aircraft and then moved on to the next generation for the other 100 till the entire series of that manufacturer was integrated.

Today what we are seeing is that PAF is undecided on what to take and what to leave, indigenous weapon systems are being limited because of the weight and height limitations of the Air frame.

If an export order would have been placed then the country placing such order could have selected from the market what it wanted to have in place of those weapon systems and ECM that were being used by PAF. This way the cost of obtaining various products from various sources would have been reduced.

Raad can't be integrated with wing hard points, that is something i don't understand.

The issue with JF -17 is its ground clearance. PAF wanted a small aircraft because they know it is difficult to be spotted, by the enemy both on radar and also eye sight.

Seems like it. Either the Block-III (on wards) needs to be a bit higher on the ground, and/or the PAF will have to look for a lighter and more compact design. The latter is quite possible, they'd just need Denel Dynamics' expertise to develop a "Ra'ad II" or perhaps acquire a variant of Turkey's SOM ALCM.

The best thing it to develop technical weapons that are small but highly effective for multiple tasks.

 

[ghazi768]

@Oscar ----here is your answer---. Calm down buddy---.

May I ask how this image proves your point?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

This thread is requested to be closed. It is built on false premise, emotion and conjecture. Thank you Admins in advance.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar ----here is your answer---. Calm down buddy---.

You realize that it actually dismisses your point entirely.. dont you?
I'D let that sink in.

This thread is requested to be closed. It is built on false premise, emotion and conjecture. Thank you Admins in advance.

Its a pattern.

 

[HRK]

Shit Video

​

& a more shity false flag member .... ​

 

[Bratva]

Well said, as far as my info goes things are not as bad as its being shown here.

Well Sir, these are the same kind of remarks which we used to hear that JF-17 has no BVR and then we saw BVR on its wings, it can't take big missiles then we saw C-802s & in China we saw CM-400AKG, then we used to hear why PAF JF-17s have no multi rack ejectors and then we saw those too.

Majority of the people don't understand that it is a huge initiative by PAF and with changing times & technology, we need to introduce change in the program also and such changes for the betterment of the program result in delays as we need to make it upto date fighter program.

And for other guys i wanna make clear, no matter how good Chinese products become, PAF will always keep its doors open to western options as that way PAF can have the best available to them from all sides and they have a certain bench marking in place to compare the products.



Raad can't be integrated with wing hard points, that is something i don't understand.

3 hard points of JF-17 are certified to carry 1000Kg payload, Raad is at 1,100KG weight as per published figures, reduce the warhead weight and you can manage it upto 1000kg. Length is 4.85m, while CM-400AKg is 5.1meter & C-802 is even lengthier thus length is not an issue and i don't see diameter to be an issue for wing hard points.

So we are left with the center hard point and there ground clearance is to be seen.

The wing roots of of Blk2 are ''strengthened'' to carry two Raad ALCM or two C802 or two CM400AKG............

View attachment 303883

If I have to take a guess when we say 1000 KG it means it is the maximum payload it can carry. Normal and optimal weight would always be within 940-980 KG.

I dont know if it is lack of will or capability or finance but LACM and ALCM both are stuck at the same specs since their first tests. There is no use of composite matieral usage or else we would have seen short and compact cruise missiles or increased ranges . And to bring ALCM weight from 1100 to 940-980 KG without advance manufacturing techniques is not in our capability or skill set sans what you suggested by taking a performance hit i.e reduced warhead weight. But its been what 9 years since fist test of Ra'ad ? We would have seen raad on the inner wings of JF-17 after root strengthening but still latest test was from Mirage. So the speculation stands whether if it is lack of will,skill set or finances.

Seems like it. Either the Block-III (on wards) needs to be a bit higher on the ground, and/or the PAF will have to look for a lighter and more compact design. The latter is quite possible, they'd just need Denel Dynamics' expertise to develop a "Ra'ad II" or perhaps acquire a variant of Turkey's SOM ALCM.

I dont believe there will be any structural changes in height or length. If there were any JF-17 B would have been the test bed for such changes. See the official specs of A and B from AVIC

Lets see if a 1 meter increase in wing span will introduce two extra hardpoints on B version or not.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@MastanKhan

Sir, You should stop stealing my Ideas. First it was the JH-7B and then the Medium weight variant of JF-17. They were just ideas, Aap tou dil pai hi lai gai hain.

Now I regret giving voice to them.

 

[Quwa]

If I have to take a guess when we say 1000 KG it means it is the maximum payload it can carry. Normal and optimal weight would always be within 940-980 KG.

I dont know if it is lack of will or capability or finance but LACM and ALCM both are stuck at the same specs since their first tests. There is no use of composite matieral usage or else we would have seen short and compact cruise missiles or increased ranges . And to bring ALCM weight from 1100 to 940-980 KG without advance manufacturing techniques is not in our capability or skill set sans what you suggested by taking a performance hit i.e reduced warhead weight. But its been what 9 years since fist test of Ra'ad ? We would have seen raad on the inner wings of JF-17 after root strengthening but still latest test was from Mirage. So the speculation stands whether if it is lack of will,skill set or finances.



I dont believe there will be any structural changes in height or length. If there were any JF-17 B would have been the test bed for such changes. See the official specs of A and B from AVIC

View attachment 304084


Lets see if a 1 meter increase in wing span will introduce two extra hardpoints on B version or not.

I think it's lack of funding and to an extent wanting to keep JF-17's stand-off strike (past MTCR) capability on the down low. At some point we should engage with Denel Dynamics or someone to help us reduce the weight and size of the Ra'ad; short-term, I wonder if the Turkish SOM/SOM-J is on the horizon.

 

[MastanKhan]

May I ask how this image proves your point?

Sir,

I am not making any point or proving anything---I am just going by the interview that the air commodore gave---and those are his words---as printed.

 

[Bratva]

I think it's lack of funding and to an extent wanting to keep JF-17's stand-off strike (past MTCR) capability on the down low. At some point we should engage with Denel Dynamics or someone to help us reduce the weight and size of the Ra'ad; short-term, I wonder if the Turkish SOM/SOM-J is on the horizon.

Turkish are targeting a 2020 timeframe for SOM integration with F-16 and F-4 . They are saying by the end of this year they are going to test or (manufacture i think?) indigenous engines for SOM cruise missiles. So Yes there is better chance for being engaged with turks then with Denel dynamics. Why? Because of the overtures of SA political leaderships towards India and our inability to pay hard cash.

 

[_NOBODY_]

I know that I am off topic but can you gentlemen compare air launched SOM with Ra'ad ?
@Bratva @Quwa @The Eagle @Viper0011.

 

[Bratva]

I know that I am off topic but can you gentlemen compare air launched SOM with Ra'ad ?
@Bratva @Quwa @The Eagle @Viper0011.

With publicly available data and videos as shown above. SOM cruise missile is more advance than Ra'ad.