Have The Paf Disclaimers Sabotaged The Sale Of The JF17's!

[litman]

The News of PAF dissatisfaction with WMD7 pod also appeared in the same time.
I believe this is not a stunt to show Americans that We need Blk52 for good reason as Jf17 capabilities are questionable as far as ground strike missions are concerned.

We have yet to see Jf17 with complete ground strike package. We always see two/three Drop tanks under the fuselage and wings telling us the "story" about Fuel consumption rate of RD93 & lower internal fuel carrying capacity.

As result, only two hardpoints remain to station bombs. If we install IFR probe and get better engine with for better fuel efficiency then It will give Jf17 rid of drop tanks. After it will be able to carry Targeting pod under the fuselage and laser guided bombs at four hard points. Or it will be able to carry unguided bombs at five hard points.

you are absolutely right but someone should ask this question from PAF that why they always lied to the nation about the capabilities of the thunder that it is even better then F-16 and is actively bombing the terrorists in FATA. evevn in the latest "mahaaz" program it was told that the thunder is comparable to the F-16s as far as the weapons are concerned. at the time of it's induction it was capable of firing only the WVR missiles and 6 unguided 500 pounds bombs. it's internal fuel capacity is low and the engine is fuel thirsty which reduces the range of the jet. now it has the capability to carry two BVR missiles. 2 anti ship missiles but still no laser guided bomb. thunder is good replacement for all the junk we have in our air force but still it needs a lot of improvement.

 

[syed_yusuf]

i think JFT is capable of stand off bombs just awaiting LDP to be integrated

Can JFT carry BVR on wing tips

 

[MastanKhan]

You have a valid point but I think it is very unfair to reject a fighter just because it may not have a relevant pod yet available. It after all has the benefits of source codes available to us which allows us to integrate any weapon or pods we want to integrate. Also when it come to stand-off ranges and munitions, what it provides and can provide is not yet available to us on any other platform we have.

Also it is not fair to use our every action in regards of F-16 to conclude things for JF-17. We have a big number of F-16s and we have rich experience of operating them. Why should we not do efforts to keep them updated and useful until they become obsolete and ready for retirement. Also thousands of them are going to be available in market sooner or later, keeping our worries of spares and attritions low.

I think there are reasons, not associated with the performance of JF-17, for these kind of impressions being built. First is we are new in the market of exporting jets and have not yet learned the tricks of the trade yet. Big ones I think is, making lot of marketing buzz and noise about what you have on offer and criticising and be-littleing what your competitor has on offer. I remember hearing a discussion about MK-2000s where guys were discussing their experience against MK-2000 and even a US pilot with lots of viper's experience was surprised by his experiences in this regard and question being debated was, was it the men behind the machine or the machine itself.
Also I suspect a sort of bias and prejudice involved, whether it is matter of nuclear or conventional weapons they some how think we are incapable of making anything and if we have done that it must be low grade and shitty.
I think that they are taking future competition from JF-17 so seriously that it will be tough to get good pods and other integrations from French especially and west in general.



I think your impression is not correct. JF-17 has three wet points for drop tanks and that actually is a good thing. AG operations will have drop tank attached, actually show me any operational scenario except a quick scramble to defend your base where you initially do not have a drop tank attached. Also look at Rafale, it is considered to have such a long range, but I do not know a single operational scenario where it will not be carrying a drop tank and most probably two or three.
Best way to get an idea about lift and engine efficiency and therefore possible loiter times is to look at what ferry ranges manufacturer provides. combat ranges are all dependant upon played configurations and useless to discuss on a forum.
Smoke is not indicative of low fuel efficiency but after burner design. Its engine is based on MK 33 which is regarded as very efficient engine, because of modifications to increase its dry and wet thrust that results in higher SFC but is not such a cause of concern. An AL 31 will still guzzle much more fuel than a juiced up 93. Also I think that latest upgrades from MK 33 will appear in 93 as well in future.
FLIR pods is an issue but I think the bigger thing is that we most probably do not want just an FLIR pod but one with an integrated IRST package as well. Lets see how things work out in this regard.

Sir,

There is a folly in building this aircraft and there is utility in its manufacture.

The folly is that there is no oversigth---the paf is blundering into making pitches that are more damaging to the aircraft---presenting the aircraft when it was not ready---.

What I have assessed so far---and I have deep access---there is no knowledgeable DEVIL'S ADVOCATE in either of the defence forces----.

There is a major lack of knowledge and understanding of the americans---and it has not changed---because there is none to tell them otherwise---.

There was no one to tell them that France would not supply them the radars etc for the JF17----they were anxiously waiting till the last moment---but the french had looked the other way long before that---. Only the air force did not see that.

The french punished the paf in their own manner---by keeping the paf on the leash for the longest and cutoff the umbilical cord right at the last moment---.

The world heard the screams of the paf at that failure---but did they learn something out of it---they did not---it is not in their psyche---they don't know how to learn.

And the thing is they don't need to---they need to keep flying but they need to create a group who knows and can adjust to changing environment.

It is not about renting your property for 5000 or 10000 dollars a month to defence contractors.

As for the F16's---they are not sanction proof---this time the sanctions would be electronic. The moment your data link is up---you will be sabotaged.

I don't understand that why you guys don't get it---we at the car dealerships in the U S were putting tracking devices on people's cars for over a decade LOJACK and similar devices---.

In the last decade---there are kill switches that teh finance company wants to be installed on cars for people who have RISKY CREDIT---. When the VIN of a vehicle is clicked on---it bring out the exact location of the vehicle and where it is headed---. The state law is---that the kill switch cannot be activated while the car is on the road---it has to be in a parking lot or the person driveway or parked on the side of the street.

All cars with bluetooth devices now can be sabotaged by hackers. You don't have hydraulic power steering inmost cars now adays---you have an ELECTRIC MOTOR assist power steerings---you don't have an accelerator cable---but you have an electric wire that gives an electric impulse---you don't have vaccuum boosters on your cars---but have an electric pump that pumps the valve---.

So---your steering control is gone---your speed control is gone---your break control is gone---oh---you have the lane change sensors and automatic breaking for accident avoidance---and an infra red seeker in the front for night driving---and an electronic sensor to keep the distance between you the the vehicle in front of you.

And vehicles with equipment have been sabotaged----you can see the videos on the internet---.

The F16 is a fascinating aircraft---for the paf to utilize it to the maximum---it will have to find a different aircraft in parallel with the F16---otherwise---it means that the paf has intentionally sabotaged the procurement of a potent aircraft---.

Which I firmly believe that they have been doing since 2002.

 

[PakShaheen79]

When we compare F-16s with JFT. We should not forget that in context of PAF, this is a comparison between Sophistication and Control.

 

[volatile]

Alas PAF has to develop team for Procurement and Marketing just like any Professional Corporation with incorporation of highly qualified Business graduate with Engineering background (can be from Air force or Civil) .Reason why i say this .

A. Professionally handle all financial/political/technical Issue`s than normal pilot who is just given the job to do the same .
B. Procurement teams can develop /establish vendor lines across the globe speaking to PAF language and more cheaply reason i say as this defence industry is now a big corporate business just like any other business or market .
C. Reason for Marketing team PAF is unable to materialize JF17 sales because simply they are not listening to the customer requirements .Classical case of JF17B dual seater after 5 years or so now we have started taking this step reason being " We find it very easy to fly so ...." but you PAF are much professional people then rest of the Air forces .
D Just like Lockheed Martin is a private company PAF needs to develop individuals which know how Commercial sales/procurement are done.LHM has employed one of the best business minds for there fighter programs and other ,Had they less smarter they would have employed pilots .

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Paf is like a husband---whose wife is a sl-ut---. Everyone knows that she is sleeping with everyone else except for the husband.

In a similar manner--everyone else knows that there would be issues coming with the sales of electronics from thales---there would be issues coming for the sales of the F16's---but only ones who did not know were the paf.

 

[volatile]

We as a nation are in the process of Evolution ,All armed forces are coming from British Era Bureaucratic Yes Sir/No Sir .But Thanks to Pak most of the guys have enough knowledge to atleast make reasoning and share how it can be done .Societies evolved around Visions and Implementers .

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Hi,

Paf is like a husband---whose wife is a sl-ut---. Everyone knows that she is sleeping with everyone else except for the husband.

In a similar manner--everyone else knows that there would be issues coming with the sales of electronics from thales---there would be issues coming for the sales of the F16's---but only ones who did not know were the paf.

Have you ever asked PAF people what do they FEEL about their small Budget

And who takes up most of the defence allocations

 

[MastanKhan]

The wing roots of of Blk2 are ''strengthened'' to carry two Raad ALCM or two C802 or two CM400AKG............

View attachment 303883

Sir,

That is incorrect---they cannot due to imbalance of load after the launch of one missile----.

This was clearly stated in recent past in one of the interviews---.

Unless you can prove otherwise---don't make up things to look good---just to satisfy your ego---.

We as a nation are in the process of Evolution ,All armed forces are coming from British Era Bureaucratic Yes Sir/No Sir .But Thanks to Pak most of the guys have enough knowledge to atleast make reasoning and share how it can be done .Societies evolved around Visions and Implementers .

Sir,

That is a feel good statement---an illusion---a wish in the current generation---.

It is as much of a yessir military now as before.

 

[volatile]

Sir,

That is a feel good statement---an illusion---a wish in the current generation---.

It is as much of a yessir military now as before

Yes you are right ,Our current state reflects that

 

[ghazi768]

Sir,

That is incorrect---they cannot due to imbalance of load after the launch of one missile----.

This was clearly stated in recent past in one of the interviews---.

Unless you can prove otherwise---don't make up things to look good---just to satisfy your ego---.




Sir,

That is a feel good statement---an illusion---a wish in the current generation---.

It is as much of a yessir military now as before.

No, this is not correct. Newer FBW aircraft balance themselves after firing or dropping by adjusting control surfaces especially ailerons. In older aircrafts pilots used to this by trimming.

 

[ghazi768]

Sir,

There is a folly in building this aircraft and there is utility in its manufacture.

The folly is that there is no oversigth---the paf is blundering into making pitches that are more damaging to the aircraft---presenting the aircraft when it was not ready---.

What I have assessed so far---and I have deep access---there is no knowledgeable DEVIL'S ADVOCATE in either of the defence forces----.

There is a major lack of knowledge and understanding of the americans---and it has not changed---because there is none to tell them otherwise---.

There was no one to tell them that France would not supply them the radars etc for the JF17----they were anxiously waiting till the last moment---but the french had looked the other way long before that---. Only the air force did not see that.

The french punished the paf in their own manner---by keeping the paf on the leash for the longest and cutoff the umbilical cord right at the last moment---.

The world heard the screams of the paf at that failure---but did they learn something out of it---they did not---it is not in their psyche---they don't know how to learn.

And the thing is they don't need to---they need to keep flying but they need to create a group who knows and can adjust to changing environment.

It is not about renting your property for 5000 or 10000 dollars a month to defence contractors.

As for the F16's---they are not sanction proof---this time the sanctions would be electronic. The moment your data link is up---you will be sabotaged.

I don't understand that why you guys don't get it---we at the car dealerships in the U S were putting tracking devices on people's cars for over a decade LOJACK and similar devices---.

In the last decade---there are kill switches that teh finance company wants to be installed on cars for people who have RISKY CREDIT---. When the VIN of a vehicle is clicked on---it bring out the exact location of the vehicle and where it is headed---. The state law is---that the kill switch cannot be activated while the car is on the road---it has to be in a parking lot or the person driveway or parked on the side of the street.

All cars with bluetooth devices now can be sabotaged by hackers. You don't have hydraulic power steering inmost cars now adays---you have an ELECTRIC MOTOR assist power steerings---you don't have an accelerator cable---but you have an electric wire that gives an electric impulse---you don't have vaccuum boosters on your cars---but have an electric pump that pumps the valve---.

So---your steering control is gone---your speed control is gone---your break control is gone---oh---you have the lane change sensors and automatic breaking for accident avoidance---and an infra red seeker in the front for night driving---and an electronic sensor to keep the distance between you the the vehicle in front of you.

And vehicles with equipment have been sabotaged----you can see the videos on the internet---.

The F16 is a fascinating aircraft---for the paf to utilize it to the maximum---it will have to find a different aircraft in parallel with the F16---otherwise---it means that the paf has intentionally sabotaged the procurement of a potent aircraft---.

Which I firmly believe that they have been doing since 2002.

I think I understand what you are saying but I think you are taking it too seriously.

I have no doubt there is oversight and every thing even the smallest details get discussed, documented at length. But expecting all that to be available in open is wrong.

Lets take the point of someone on this thread raising doubts about JF-17 AG options, which platform has the longest stand off munitions available, it is JF-17. I think some cannot be discussed here but take an example of H4 whose data to some extant is in public, it is highly precise with a rang of above 100 km. Which other platform provide this much variety and range. I think, the issue with using F-16 in COINS against rag tag terrorists may have more to do with using much cheaper, older LGB munitions tied to a single platform.
Now even if you get Su-35 or J10C which pod will be available right from start? J10C, no chance of even getting integrated a western Pod. Russian themselves actually use a POD based on I think french technology. On the other hand, JF-17 being our own platform can be integrated with any Pod. And for cheap LGBs, already have one. But it may want to have a pod which can be dual used as IRST, video FLIR solution as well as targeting.

I very strongly doubt that US will ever try to shutdown our F-16s the way you are saying. open mission control computer vendors for F-16 in England, turkey and singapore will have a field day.

 

[Wolf]

Sir,

There is a folly in building this aircraft and there is utility in its manufacture.

The folly is that there is no oversigth---the paf is blundering into making pitches that are more damaging to the aircraft---presenting the aircraft when it was not ready---.

What I have assessed so far---and I have deep access---there is no knowledgeable DEVIL'S ADVOCATE in either of the defence forces----.

There is a major lack of knowledge and understanding of the americans---and it has not changed---because there is none to tell them otherwise---.

There was no one to tell them that France would not supply them the radars etc for the JF17----they were anxiously waiting till the last moment---but the french had looked the other way long before that---. Only the air force did not see that.

The french punished the paf in their own manner---by keeping the paf on the leash for the longest and cutoff the umbilical cord right at the last moment---.

The world heard the screams of the paf at that failure---but did they learn something out of it---they did not---it is not in their psyche---they don't know how to learn.

And the thing is they don't need to---they need to keep flying but they need to create a group who knows and can adjust to changing environment.

It is not about renting your property for 5000 or 10000 dollars a month to defence contractors.

As for the F16's---they are not sanction proof---this time the sanctions would be electronic. The moment your data link is up---you will be sabotaged.

I don't understand that why you guys don't get it---we at the car dealerships in the U S were putting tracking devices on people's cars for over a decade LOJACK and similar devices---.

In the last decade---there are kill switches that teh finance company wants to be installed on cars for people who have RISKY CREDIT---. When the VIN of a vehicle is clicked on---it bring out the exact location of the vehicle and where it is headed---. The state law is---that the kill switch cannot be activated while the car is on the road---it has to be in a parking lot or the person driveway or parked on the side of the street.

All cars with bluetooth devices now can be sabotaged by hackers. You don't have hydraulic power steering inmost cars now adays---you have an ELECTRIC MOTOR assist power steerings---you don't have an accelerator cable---but you have an electric wire that gives an electric impulse---you don't have vaccuum boosters on your cars---but have an electric pump that pumps the valve---.

So---your steering control is gone---your speed control is gone---your break control is gone---oh---you have the lane change sensors and automatic breaking for accident avoidance---and an infra red seeker in the front for night driving---and an electronic sensor to keep the distance between you the the vehicle in front of you.

And vehicles with equipment have been sabotaged----you can see the videos on the internet---.

The F16 is a fascinating aircraft---for the paf to utilize it to the maximum---it will have to find a different aircraft in parallel with the F16---otherwise---it means that the paf has intentionally sabotaged the procurement of a potent aircraft---.

Which I firmly believe that they have been doing since 2002.

What you say is common sense and when despite your extremely logical and futuristic approach, people on this forum advocate buying F16s, it gives me a heart ache. Either people here are dumb or PAF bosses has hired some bloggers to spread indispensable nature of F16s for PAF.

It seems PAF wants to do to jf17 what army did to Alkhalid. Instead of arranging funds or spending funds for improvement of jf17, they are hell bent on procuring F16s. We always condemn politicians, there are a lot of their kind in our armed forces too.

 

[Quwa]

It depends upon the ground clearance. RAAD cant be integrated with wing hard points and Underbelly HP has the deficiency of being close to the ground

Seems like it. Either the Block-III (on wards) needs to be a bit higher on the ground, and/or the PAF will have to look for a lighter and more compact design. The latter is quite possible, they'd just need Denel Dynamics' expertise to develop a "Ra'ad II" or perhaps acquire a variant of Turkey's SOM ALCM.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think I understand what you are saying but I think you are taking it too seriously.

I have no doubt there is oversight and every thing even the smallest details get discussed, documented at length. But expecting all that to be available in open is wrong.

Lets take the point of someone on this thread raising doubts about JF-17 AG options, which platform has the longest stand off munitions available, it is JF-17. I think some cannot be discussed here but take an example of H4 whose data to some extant is in public, it is highly precise with a rang of above 100 km. Which other platform provide this much variety and range. I think, the issue with using F-16 in COINS against rag tag terrorists may have more to do with using much cheaper, older LGB munitions tied to a single platform.
Now even if you get Su-35 or J10C which pod will be available right from start? J10C, no chance of even getting integrated a western Pod. Russian themselves actually use a POD based on I think french technology. On the other hand, JF-17 being our own platform can be integrated with any Pod. And for cheap LGBs, already have one. But it may want to have a pod which can be dual used as IRST, video FLIR solution as well as targeting.

I very strongly doubt that US will ever try to shutdown our F-16s the way you are saying. open mission control computer vendors for F-16 in England, turkey and singapore will have a field day.

Hi,

The americans are hating the pakistani like never before---so---the resulting sanction would be like never before---and anyone helping to circumvent them---would have problems with the U S.

So---for that reason---your prime fighter cannot have any doubts about its operation.

I say again---the JF17 is a wonderful aircraft on its own merits---but the problem is that you are not operating in ETHER.

Your equipment is to fight the enemy---until and unless some of your aircraft are not knowingly known to take out the enemy---you have a problem---because the enemy is not scared---when they are not scared---they do not make mistakes.

There has to be fear in the heart of the enemy---there has to be a SHINING SWORD --- as one of our wonderful colleague put it in those words---.

Until and unless the air commodore does not state in his interview about two heavy missile being operated by the JF17's as operational---then it is not---regardless of any reasoning---by you or any other member---.

The air commodore gave technical reasons why it could not be done.

Now as for the pod for the J10C's---use the wmd7 or whatever is available---use it and find ways to upgrade it and modify it.

You are into the battle zone against the terrorists---so what is the big deal if you don't have the best of the best.

Then you have turkey developing the pod---and you have access to vixen.

My man---to start the journey---you need to take the first step---. In 5 years time---the potency of the chinese electronics package would be almost twice as potent as they are today.

The south china seas crisis has lit a massive fire under the chinese ar-se---that is why they were back in good league with pakistan as compared to 2012---. They are spending as much as they can to make the break thru in their electronics warfare packages.

Their fighter aircraft engines are in service now---and there is no reason to believe that their radars and jammers and irst and optics would not be upto the mark.

It is time to stop listening to the lies of the PAF and let them know now that

they are liars and totally incompetent NINCOMPOOPS in negotiating for a fighter aircraft deal---.