HAL HLFT-42: Lead In Fighter Trainer Project

[datafreak]

Why waste precious resources on useless projects. Focus on Tejas and AMCA. Too much on the place already if we count TEDBF!!

No man. Trainers are always an excellent and evergreen investment. There will always be need for them and they always save us billions.

 

[Skull and Bones]

No man. Trainers are always an excellent and evergreen investment. There will always be need for them and they always save us billions.

This is mostly to take on South Korean FA-50 to take on light fighter/Trainer aircraft at a cheaper cost.

 

[migflug]

No man. Trainers are always an excellent and evergreen investment. There will always be need for them and they always save us billions.

We already have two trainers in development HJT 36 Sitara(Stage 2 trainer) and HTT 40(Stage 1 Trainer). We already have Hawk for Stage 3 and we were already developing Tejas LIFT variant for Stage. Now what is the use of this completely new variant. Why not just improve upon the existing planes under development? Why not focus on rapidly developing Mk2 or MK1A, than starting another useless project which IAF will definitely not induct.

 

[MirageBlue]

Is this a modified Sitara by any chance?

not even close.

The HLFT-42 is a clean sheet design. But I'm puzzled myself as to why they're going with a single engine design instead of HTFE-25 based twin engine LFTA. It would then imply a GE F-404 derivative engine to achieve wet thrust of 80+ kN (can see the afterburner nozzle in the CGI). Basically in the T-50/Hurjet class.

Which is strange since there was the LCA SPORT based on the Tejas twin seater that was apparently in the works earlier as a Lead in Fighter Trainer. Most of the development was already done thanks to the fact that it was meant to be a Tejas twin seater derivative with a new cockpit, ACMI, synthetic training aids, etc.

This HLFT-42 is of course just a HAL concept as of now with seemingly no ADA involvement. Without IAF support it cannot go anywhere since the costs to develop this will be quite significant. There is of course the Tejas Mk1A for all of the IAF's light fighter requirements so I'm not sure it makes sense.

I had always thought that a clean sheet AJT design would be the next HAL project, to act as the next generation Hawk replacement. But this appears to be an out and out supersonic trainer/ light fighter with all the weapons shown in the CGI.

Await more clarity in a few days at Aero India 2023.

 

[Skull and Bones]

not even close.

The HLFT-42 is a clean sheet design. But I'm puzzled myself as to why they're going with a single engine design instead of HTFE-25 based twin engine LFTA. It would then imply a GE F-404 derivative engine to achieve wet thrust of 80+ kN (can see the afterburner nozzle in the CGI). Basically in the T-50/Hurjet class.

Which is strange since there was the LCA SPORT based on the Tejas twin seater that was apparently in the works earlier as a Lead in Fighter Trainer. Most of the development was already done thanks to the fact that it was meant to be a Tejas twin seater derivative with a new cockpit, ACMI, synthetic training aids, etc.

This HLFT-42 is of course just a HAL concept as of now with seemingly no ADA involvement. Without IAF support it cannot go anywhere since the costs to develop this will be quite significant. There is of course the Tejas Mk1A for all of the IAF's light fighter requirements so I'm not sure it makes sense.

I had always thought that a clean sheet AJT design would be the next HAL project, to act as the next generation Hawk replacement. But this appears to be an out and out supersonic trainer/ light fighter with all the weapons shown in the CGI.

Await more clarity in a few days at Aero India 2023.

HAL can pitch it as an replacement to BAE Hawk, an advanced trainer with significant A2A and A2G capabilities.

 

[datafreak]

We already have two trainers in development HJT 36 Sitara(Stage 2 trainer) and HTT 40(Stage 1 Trainer). We already have Hawk for Stage 3 and we were already developing Tejas LIFT variant for Stage. Now what is the use of this completely new variant. Why not just improve upon the existing planes under development? Why not focus on rapidly developing Mk2 or MK1A, than starting another useless project which IAF will definitely not induct.

Yeah but Hawks will start retirng in about 15 years and we will need replacements. You don't want to buy another 'foreign' trainer...I believe the Hawks have cost us almost 10 Billion in pirchase and maintainence by now.

Think about it...the Pilatus was about 3 to 4 billion, HTT 40 will save us that going forward
Hawks 10+ billion....a domestic trainer will save us that money

These two projects alone will save us 15 to 20 billion in future (including inflation)

 

[Two banks of the River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623939084787019776

So it will be
1. Supersonic
2. It will have FBW
3. It will have full AESA+IRST and EW sensor load.

 

[Skull and Bones]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623939084787019776

So it will be
1. Supersonic
2. It will have FBW
3. It will have full AESA+IRST and EW sensor load.

Looks like it will have a 3.5-4 tons payload if it goes for GE F404 engine. Almost a fighter jet in all regards, all its missing is a refueling probe.

 

[MirageBlue]

We already have two trainers in development HJT 36 Sitara(Stage 2 trainer) and HTT 40(Stage 1 Trainer). We already have Hawk for Stage 3 and we were already developing Tejas LIFT variant for Stage. Now what is the use of this completely new variant. Why not just improve upon the existing planes under development? Why not focus on rapidly developing Mk2 or MK1A, than starting another useless project which IAF will definitely not induct.

HTT-40 is already in production now. The project team size has been cut down and designers moved to other projects. The focus is on production of the HTT-40 now for the IAF. And an HTT-40 armed variant will likely follow.

HJT-36 Sitara is not in design either. It is only undergoing flight trials to validate the changes made to fix the departure from controlled flight during spin trials. And those have been largely fixed, with 6 turn spins to the right and left undertaken successfully. Should expect some announcements on the Sitara at Aero India, given that the spin trials were the only major hurdle pending to be resolved.

So HAL definitely had design resources available. Remember, HAL is not the same as ADA and each have their own design resources. ADA is over loaded with Tejas Mk2

HAL people always rue the fact that ADA was created and took away what was essentially HAL's responsibility of design and development of trainers and fighters. It has had mixed results after the split was made- HJT-36 was stuck whereas HTT-40 has sailed through. HAL has also mostly adhered to the timelines agreed upon for the Tejas Mk1A (which is a HAL offering, not ADA's).

Of course HAL's Rotary design center has a great record as far as helicopter development goes with ALH, LCH, LUH and now IMRH in the works. With literally hundreds of ALH Dhruv variants in service, they're the backbone of the IAF, IA, IN and Coast Guard rotary wings.

Clearest image of the HLFT-42 yet, courtesy Grp Cpt HVT

 

[MirageBlue]

Why waste precious resources on useless projects. Focus on Tejas and AMCA. Too much on the place already if we count TEDBF!!

Tejas Mk1A is well past any design stage. It is on track for delivery to the IAF by February 2023.

Tejas Mk2 has cleared CDR and prototype fabrication is where all the action is currently, apart from all the avionics and software development that will be going on.

TEDBF has had PDR documents submitted to the MoD and IAF for review. Once it clears that, CCS sanction may be sought. After that CDR, which will cut down the time for prototype fabrication after CDR is cleared. On the Tejas Mk2, more than a year was lost between CDR being passed and CCS sanction coming through, which unnecessarily delayed the program's funding.

AMCA is in CDR stage as of now, should hopefully clear it by mid to end of this year. CCS sanction could come before or after that. Prototype fab after CCS sanction.

HAL HTT-40 has now moved to manufacturing, with HAL Nashik being chosen for setting up the assembly line for it. As of now 70 HTT-40s are on order.

HAL HJT-36's status is as yet unclear since it cleared 6 turn spin trials on both left and right sides early last year. Hopefully it too should clear all certification requirements and an order should be placed to replace any remaining Kiran Mk2s.

So as you can see, HAL's engineers are not necessarily all tied up. ADA's engineers are, for sure.

HAL was obviously going to move on to the Hawk replacement AJT design, but this is more than just an AJT, it's a supersonic LIFT, along the lines of the T-50, T-7A and Hurjet.

My only question is why a clean sheet design now? Why not build on a LCA Tejas twin seat design? The answer may lie in the materials used, to keep the cost more manageable.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Tejas Mk1A is well past any design stage. It is on track for delivery to the IAF by February 2023.

Tejas Mk2 has cleared CDR and prototype fabrication is where all the action is currently, apart from all the avionics and software development that will be going on.

TEDBF has had PDR documents submitted to the MoD and IAF for review. Once it clears that, CCS sanction may be sought. After that CDR, which will cut down the time for prototype fabrication after CDR is cleared. On the Tejas Mk2, more than a year was lost between CDR being passed and CCS sanction coming through, which unnecessarily delayed the program's funding.

AMCA is in CDR stage as of now, should hopefully clear it by mid to end of this year. CCS sanction could come before or after that. Prototype fab after CCS sanction.

HAL HTT-40 has now moved to manufacturing, with HAL Nashik being chosen for setting up the assembly line for it. As of now 70 HTT-40s are on order.

HAL HJT-36's status is as yet unclear since it cleared 6 turn spin trials on both left and right sides early last year. Hopefully it too should clear all certification requirements and an order should be placed to replace any remaining Kiran Mk2s.

So as you can see, HAL's engineers are not necessarily all tied up. ADA's engineers are, for sure.

HAL was obviously going to move on to the Hawk replacement AJT design, but this is more than just an AJT, it's a supersonic LIFT, along the lines of the T-50, T-7A and Hurjet.

My only question is why a clean sheet design now? Why not build on a LCA Tejas twin seat design? The answer may lie in the materials used, to keep the cost more manageable.

Good info.

As far as I know, this new aircraft will extensively use aluminum alloys to keep price low.

 

[indushek]

I think it's Alpha Defense who mentioned in some video, that this project might use Kaveri engine. Hope it is so, but unsure if it's completed it's high altitude trials in Russia as of now.

If am not wrong, Kaveri in current stage produces 46KN dry and 76 KN wet thrust.
If this uses GE engine, might be a downer over all.

 

[migflug]

Tejas Mk1A is well past any design stage. It is on track for delivery to the IAF by February 2023.

Tejas Mk2 has cleared CDR and prototype fabrication is where all the action is currently, apart from all the avionics and software development that will be going on.

TEDBF has had PDR documents submitted to the MoD and IAF for review. Once it clears that, CCS sanction may be sought. After that CDR, which will cut down the time for prototype fabrication after CDR is cleared. On the Tejas Mk2, more than a year was lost between CDR being passed and CCS sanction coming through, which unnecessarily delayed the program's funding.

AMCA is in CDR stage as of now, should hopefully clear it by mid to end of this year. CCS sanction could come before or after that. Prototype fab after CCS sanction.

HAL HTT-40 has now moved to manufacturing, with HAL Nashik being chosen for setting up the assembly line for it. As of now 70 HTT-40s are on order.

HAL HJT-36's status is as yet unclear since it cleared 6 turn spin trials on both left and right sides early last year. Hopefully it too should clear all certification requirements and an order should be placed to replace any remaining Kiran Mk2s.

So as you can see, HAL's engineers are not necessarily all tied up. ADA's engineers are, for sure.

HAL was obviously going to move on to the Hawk replacement AJT design, but this is more than just an AJT, it's a supersonic LIFT, along the lines of the T-50, T-7A and Hurjet.

My only question is why a clean sheet design now? Why not build on a LCA Tejas twin seat design? The answer may lie in the materials used, to keep the cost more manageable.

I am aware of all the infos you have mentioned, still I don't find the need for the newer jet. Instead they should have doubled down on developing the existing projects like Tejas MK2 or AMCA both which has been delayed by few yrs or if we wanted to challenge ourselves we should have gone for TEDBF which would be different class and a completely new twin engine design. This is good chance to replace the Su30MKIs in the future along with AMCA as well as complementing MRFA/Naval jet(F18or Rafale). This new single engine jet no purpose to IAF. If we wanted a stage 4 trainer jet we could have easily gone for Tejas LIFT, no sense in making a clean sheet/maruti type design again.Complete Wastage of time and resource in my view.

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1623939084787019776

So it will be
1. Supersonic
2. It will have FBW
3. It will have full AESA+IRST and EW sensor load.

and shows, India wants again all in one !
Why not indeed a simple affordable supersonic trainer like the Hürjet and not again a type that is de facto too close to the Tejas?

Even more it is an IMO not very clever decision since the market for supersonic jet trainers is already more than crowded with competitors, proven capable competitors and with India‘s aim to develop the Tejas Mk.2, the AMCA, the TEDBF … now a new transport!
Why so much and all at once?

 

[Two banks of the River]

and shows, India wants again all in one !
Why not indeed a simple affordable supersonic trainer like the Hürjet and not again a type that is de facto too close to the Tejas?

Even more it is an IMO not very clever decision since the market for supersonic jet trainers is already more than crowded with competitors, proven capable competitors and with India‘s aim to develop the Tejas Mk.2, the AMCA, the TEDBF … now a new transport!
Why so much and all at once?

Its HAL's inhouse designers trying to fight back ADA dominance.

ARDC of HAL and ADA of DRDO.

Let's see.