Give us 5th Gen technology for fighter orders: IAF

[randomradio]

So, if an employee of Norinco claimed that their VT-4 tank is superior to the Russian T-14 Armata, you would believe him too?

Yes, but it should come with confirmation of systems being carried on the VT-4. The employee, with a high enough designation, should actually explain how it is superior.

You see, these people have reputations to uphold, they can't simply lie to the public about something and get away with it.

But the problem with China is the Chinese reputation in telling the truth is extremely bad. Even the highest executives in China are known to lie. Do you remember the Su-35 saga? How the Chinese officials kept lying to the Chinese people about the Su-35 contract? Even the Chinese govt was lying to the Chinese people about it. So whatever the Norinco executive says will have to come with proof. Otoh, the Westerners and even the Russians have proven to be far more reliable. In the West, in India, they either say the truth or don't say anything at all.

For example, the one who first said Rafale is stealthy is the VP of Dassault, Bruno Revellin Falcoz. He said that the Rafale's frontal RCS is as small as a sparrow's.

His exact quote:
Bien sur nous somme dans des domaines un peu confidentiel, mais disons que la signature vue par l'avant d'un Rafale c'est la signature d'un moineau

Translation:
Of course we are in areas somewhat confidential, but we can say that the front view signature of a Rafale is the signature of a sparrow.

Naturally, it has to be believed. They have said many times that the Rafale carries a cloaking device.

 

[Mace]

This is from one of the top executives of Dassault.

• First version reduce RCS from 0.47 m^2 to 0.06 m^2 for clean aircraft
• Second version after the PEA DEDIRA reduce RCS to 0.001 m^2 for clean aircraft

With weapons load Rafale SER seems to be 0.6 with first version and 0.01 after DEDIRA.

It means the current version of Rafale that IAF will take delivery from next year is as stealthy as the F-117 while carrying external weapons. The next version of Rafale will match or exceed F-22's stealth capabilities.

The next version of Rafale will not have conventional electronics like today's fighters, including the F-35, it will be completely unified.



Read above.

Dude, back it up with proper evidence. Rafale is no 5th gen, may have some 5th gen technologies.

The next thing you know JF17 Blk3 is better than Rafale and Azm is god's gift to world from Pak better than F22. I dont have that much wax to stuff my ears shut.

 

[Akasa]

Yes, but it should come with confirmation of systems being carried on the VT-4. The employee, with a high enough designation, should actually explain how it is superior.

You see, these people have reputations to uphold, they can't simply lie to the public about something and get away with it.

So, you do believe whatever you are told, just so long as the "credentials" of that salesperson are "high" enough.

But the problem with China is the Chinese reputation in telling the truth is extremely bad. Even the highest executives in China are known to lie. Do you remember the Su-35 saga? How the Chinese officials kept lying to the Chinese people about the Su-35 contract? Even the Chinese govt was lying to the Chinese people about it. So whatever the Norinco executive says will have to come with proof. Otoh, the Westerners and even the Russians have proven to be far more reliable. In the West, in India, they either say the truth or don't say anything at all.

It might interest you to know that the Chinese media never denied the possibility of the Su-35 sales. It might also shock you to know that untruthful people exist everywhere (and yes, that includes India and the West).

For example, the one who first said Rafale is stealthy is the VP of Dassault, Bruno Revellin Falcoz. He said that the Rafale's frontal RCS is as small as a sparrow's.

His exact quote:
Bien sur nous somme dans des domaines un peu confidentiel, mais disons que la signature vue par l'avant d'un Rafale c'est la signature d'un moineau

Translation:
Of course we are in areas somewhat confidential, but we can say that the front view signature of a Rafale is the signature of a sparrow.

Naturally, it has to be believed. They have said many times that the Rafale carries a cloaking device.

RCS from what aspect? Against what band of radar? How does one single (alleged) RCS value, with no context whatsoever, evolve into the conclusion that the Rafale is "better" than the F-22? Your line or argument is even more preposterous when you consider the fact that the F-22's RCS values are strictly confidential.

Would you "naturally" believe someone who told you that a Toyota performs better than a Mercedes if that someone happened to be a senior manager at Toyota?

 

[Shamsher1990]

India trys to blackmail Uncle Sam for only 110 fighter jets?

For those in China, its not black-mail how you negotiate deals. Its called a tender process in the civilized world. We let vendors compete with each other instead of threatening them.

 

[randomradio]

Dude, back it up with proper evidence. Rafale is no 5th gen, may have some 5th gen technologies.

The next thing you know JF17 Blk3 is better than Rafale and Azm is god's gift to world from Pak better than F22. I dont have that much wax to stuff my ears shut.

Both Falcoz and the other source I quoted are extremely high end sources. The only people higher than these guys as a source are the Air Marshals of France, even though they are sort of similar rank at the technical level, one is the developer, the other is the user.

The first source I mentioned has in fact run nuclear weapons programs in France. He was one of the people who was involved in the development of the ASMP nuclear missile. So he obviously knows what he's talking about.

Go through this thread if you want to.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/
Check post 18, 19, 52, the last paragraph of 57, 60 and most importantly 61.

So, you do believe whatever you are told, just so long as the "credentials" of that salesperson are "high" enough.

With explanation.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/

RCS from what aspect? Against what band of radar? How does one single (alleged) RCS value, with no context whatsoever, evolve into the conclusion that the Rafale is "better" than the F-22? Your line or argument is even more preposterous when you consider the fact that the F-22's RCS values are strictly confidential.

Would you "naturally" believe someone who told you that a Toyota performs better than a Mercedes if that someone happened to be a senior manager at Toyota?

Rafale is overall better than the F-22 because it has better avionics and is a full multirole platform.

 

[Pyara9]

Indigenous is not even the question here. The question is do you have the technology or not. India does Pakistan not much.


Yes India has tactical warheads. Smaller tests were very much a part of 98 tests. That said, India does not have same situation as Pakistan so it will not deploy those weapons. Nuclear weapons within India's strategy are only strategic weapons.

When did Pakistan get cruise missile comparable to NATO? Your cruise missile has a range of about 700-800 KM or so. Even '80s tomahawk have longer range. Don't even joke about comparing with NATO. Your Babur is easily intercept-able using S-300 SAMs.

BTW, India has a supersonic cruise missile, something for which you have no counter.

Also, when did Pakistan inducted MIRV? All you have tested was a missile capable of carrying MIRV warhead. Not the warhead itself.

And no, you are not leading anywhere. In both the types of missiles deployed and those under development.

Let me know when Pakistan gets SAM or BVR technology. Those are not even on your drawing boards.


The difference is that India is replacing Russian parts with their own. Pakistan has not done such a thing. Example, you still need Chinese radar for Blk-3 of JF-17. India has replaced Russian seeker with a home-grown one which is economical.

Heck, India took that missile and made a supersonic ALCM out of it. Where is your supersonic ALCM?



CANDU was not a copy of a Canadian reactor. It WAS a Canadian reactor. CANDU stands for "Canada Deuterium Uranium". And no, Indian didn't copy it, they got it via a global tender. The technical and design information was given with those reactors. This was 1960 and early 70.

BTW, CANDU was not even India's first reactor. That was Apsara in 1956. Infact that was Asia's first nuclear reactor. It was a simple and primitive pool type reactor for which India got uranium from UK.

And no, Canada does produce engines for snow mobile because snow mobile had traditionally been an important Canada specific means of transport. Bombardier started as a garage that got into snow mobile manufacturing before pivoting to Aviation. BTW, they do produce engines for snowmobiles under the branding of RCP. If Pakistan wants, it can also start from snowmobiles. Not that it exactly snows in most of Pakistan.

You are factually wrong on everything.

Same stupid argument Indian members have had here and we beaten it to death. Here we go again.

Our cruise missiles are our own yours is Russian made. Our curise missiles range and how it behaves is similar to Nato. Yours is in its league of its own. If you wana call it yours.lol
We were talking about what India makes locally? No? It makes cars thats about it. Bramos is a joint venture with Russia. Same goes for s-300. We have all seen how the Syrian(Russian) air defense system performs against American cruise Missiles. Hint look at the pictures.

I wasn't talking about Bombard in regards to Canada. I was referring to Pratt and Whitney. Point is Canada dosn't make cars it makes fine jet engines and planes. Your logic falls flat on its face. You measure a countries technically success based on if they can make a car engine?

Haha Sure thing mate you also had nuclear technology before anyone else in the world. Your country also had computers and satellites before anyone else. That's according to one of your politicians.

One simple question tho.. If your country and Civilization was so advanced in the past how come other people ruled you for decades? Where was your advance technology when people from all over the global had you under their foot?

Also why are you still the world's biggest importer of arms?

We sell more weapons then you it's a fact. Look it up

 

[Akasa]

With explanation.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/

The thread says nothing of the F-22's onboard systems, capabilities, and test data. Which is a moot point since those would be classified in the first place.

Rafale is overall better than the F-22 because it has better avionics and is a full multirole platform.

Let me guess, because the CEO of Dassault said so?

 

[randomradio]

The thread says nothing of the F-22's onboard systems, capabilities, and test data. Which is a moot point since those would be classified in the first place.

Why should it say anything about the F-22?

The F-22's frontal RCS is also similar to that of a sparrow.

Let me guess, because the CEO of Dassault said so?

Nope. Common sense.

The Rafale's avionics compete with the F-35, in fact better than the F-35 since they actually work.

 

[IblinI]

The thread says nothing of the F-22's onboard systems, capabilities, and test data. Which is a moot point since those would be classified in the first place.



Let me guess, because the CEO of Dassault said so?

This guy is on a rampage, I wonder why Rafale is not on the headline of all major aviation magazine or papers 24/7 if he is really out performing F22, F35, and I wonder why does IAF took more than ten years to finalize the Rafale deal, aren't they supposed to rush to France to ink the deal? I wonder why does India even need to develop their own "AMCA", since they are about to get the "bis" in the world.

 

[Mace]

India trys to blackmail Uncle Sam for only 110 fighter jets?

The main problem is that India can't even produce a decent 4th gen fighter, they don't have basic bargain chips.

It is a well known fact - India cannot steal or copy like China can

 

[Dazzler]

Rafale is not 4th gen. It only looks like a 4th gen, the version we are going for through the tender will be more advanced and capable than the F-22 and F-35.

That has to be the post of the year. Make it your signature.

 

[Akasa]

Why should it say anything about the F-22?

Because you were comparing the Rafale and the F-22?

Nope. Common sense.

You should pursue a career in journalism with that clairvoyant level of common sense.

 

[KAL-EL]

So the Rafale is/will be? superior to the F-35 and F-22 Raptor?

Man the U.S. is in a **** load of trouble

 

[randomradio]

So the Rafale is/will be? superior to the F-35 and F-22 Raptor?

Man the U.S. is in a **** load of trouble

Both are on the same side.

 

[Dazzler]

Both are on the same side.

Instead of making ridiculous assumptions, better prove it.