French Avionics for JF-17

[ali26300]

1 billion euros plz stop wasting our money for such toys, why we compete with india, we are not controlling our internal situation who we compete with india

 

[araz]

Poor PAF. Went to the Chinese to learn about self sufficiency, instead were taught a valuable lesson in hollow promises and being dependent on the Chinese. Still denying this. Now running around to other countries to salvage JF-17 and keep it competitive against evolving threats. What a sad waste of money. This is turning out to be a patch-work quilt or some sort of aviation Jambalaya.

Kharian Beast
My brother, I think that is an unfair statement and unlike you . perhaps you know something that we dont, in which case we can all keep quiet, but my information is to the contrary.
When the project was initially devised, it was supposed to have american input into it. When the Americans refused to play ball, we were left with only two options, either continue to rely on the west or the chinese, or try and develop something with Chinese help. If you look at the history of Chinese acquisitions by the PAF, we have never really had a totally Chinese aircraft and havew almost always modified and put western avionics into the chinese aircrafts. So why has this become such a problem now.
Your quote about the hollow promises also has not borne the brunt of evidence. We have had a plane delivered to us with specifications defined and subsequently modified by us, within a record amount of time, on a measly budget of 500 million $ on our part. The delays if any have been on PAFs side not on PLAAF's side, so even though we ahd prototype 4 take flight in 2004-5, we did not start production till 2009. You cant blame the chinese for that.
the concept of PAF rummaging around to keep JF17 competitive was always on the cars as we alwys knew the weaknesses of the chinese in avionics. Just because we did that with the mirages, does not make them a patchup job. If you look at other planes of similar size,you will find Thunder to be a fairly competitive both price wise and capability wise.
Technologically also this has not been a bad bargain for PAF. It has allowed them to finally have a plane that they can do what they please with without sanctions or fears of being out of the boundarieds of their contract. It will give them even in its current configuration, without any of these proposed changes, a plane competing with the best that the region has.
Now , where we do have problem is chinese reluctance to keep their end of the bargain with regarding buying 150 units. this would be nice if they do, but not the end of the world if they do not find it to fit their doctrine.Also no one has seen the contract which specifically says that they will.
thge last problem is the engine which really remains the last bugbear in the whole conundrum and a big one!! I will gladly accept thatthis is the Achilles heel of the whole plan. However , we all understand that the chinese have made some progress and even though the problem is not resolved, i see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.
JF17 like all of PAF's endeavours was a story of great compromise in adversity and it , in my humble opinion has worked out quite well under the circumstances
In any case what alternate solution did you have in your mind.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

good rejoinder ...... jf-17 was , is and will be best solution for paf to fulfill its future needs

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

its not wasting dear ...... wasting is what our leaders are wasting in luxuries and foreign tours etc, in corruption and improper utilization of government funds..... without solid defence u are vulnerable to both internal and external threats

 

[sancho]

In the Indian MMRCA competition, Rafale is at the bottom on the line which is lead by Typhoon and Mig-35. It will take them some doing to piss the Russians off especially when they have the first PAK-FA gone out to trials. I dont see Rafale in India. Just my opinion though.

It's the other way around, exactly because Pak Fa made its first flight now, these fighters are out soon!
Both are meant for the same air suoeriority role with the same main capabilities, maneuverability, speed, long range radar, but exactly these advantages are already available through MKI, or will be clearly exceeded by Pak Fa!
Also EF and Pak Fa cost nearly the same and Mig 35 don't offer a single advantage in terms of weapons, or techs, compared to MKI, or Pak Fa and both are less developed in the A2G role.
So, besides some unreliable press releases of an ambassador in Italy, which has nothing to do with MMRCA and the hope of Mig, there is nothing that speaks in favour of these two. When the trials are over, only Rafale, F18Sh and the Gripen NG will be shortlisted.

Imo IAF searches for different fighters, with supplementing capabilities to MKI and Pak Fa, but many people still prefers EF, or Mig. That is also a point at many pakistani members that I don't understand. Why so many want UAEs Mirage 2000-9, when the same systems and weapons, could be available for JF 17, which imo is also meant for the same role and should offer similar capabilities, if not better right?

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

QUITE RIGHT .... BUT I THINK THEY WILL BE THERE IN PLACE OF EXISTING MIRAGES .. IT WOULD BE BETTER IF WE HAVE THEM......

 

[MastanKhan]

Imo IAF searches for different fighters, with supplementing capabilities to MKI and Pak Fa, but many people still prefers EF, or Mig. That is also a point at many pakistani members that I don't understand. Why so many want UAEs Mirage 2000-9, when the same systems and weapons, could be available for JF 17, which imo is also meant for the same role and should offer similar capabilities, if not better right?

Hi,

In defence procurement you rely on the weaponery that has a proven track record over a period of years. For that reason you will see that the electronics etc on a war plane are aboute 3---5 years old---why so---because of testing---. Similiarly JF 17 will go through a lots of growing and integration pains---.

M2k-9 is already a seasoned platform---secondly this plane is in league with the Blk 52---similiar size and similiar weapons load and elctronic package---.

PakFa is in flight---but what the russian bear shows and delivers are two different things---it may have a structurally similiar plane as compared to F 22---but it will be lagging behind in core technologies for a while---till the russians come up with something. Looking at previous examples of russian aircraft---this plane would take about ten years to start to get into production for the russian air force if things go smoothly.

Russia wants to put its airforce on a different pleateau---to put its navy on a different footings, it has asked the help of france---it will be interesting to see where they go with pakfa.

 

[Kharian_Beast]

Kharian Beast
My brother, I think that is an unfair statement and unlike you . perhaps you know something that we dont, in which case we can all keep quiet, but my information is to the contrary.

Thanks brother Araz for your great reply, very well thought out but we are all accustomed to this highly uplifting and nationalistic/emotional bravado point of view. JF-17 has become synonymous with blind faith and misplaced nationalism. This is my problem with JF-17. Full of praise yet it's a platform nothing worth showboating. It makes us neither self sufficient nor puts us ahead of the game. It is still mostly an aircraft we buy from the Chinese, and since they can't come up with the engine, proper avionics and radar... PAF is forced to scavenge the world. This is not what this project was supposed to be about and I am glad you agree with me that the heart of this aircraft (engine) is the weakest link among other vital components.

The delays if any have been on PAFs side not on PLAAF's side, so even though we ahd prototype 4 take flight in 2004-5, we did not start production till 2009. You cant blame the chinese for that.

I don't blame the PLAAF. They are a smart force, they will have nothing to do with JF-17 except for selling PAF the required assembly parts and backdoor junky engine RD93 from Russia and still collect a handsome bounty. My blame rests squarely on PAF for conceiving a half finished, half thought, half assed project that all Pakistani's are supposed to put their utmost blind faith into, or be ostracized for logical criticism.

If you look at other planes of similar size,you will find Thunder to be a fairly competitive both price wise and capability wise.

Perhaps it is competitive for other needy and backwards air forces. To fill the role of whatever the PAF wants it for and as a backbone for PAF it is outclassed in the region by our natural enemy with regards to their current and future acquisitions.

Technologically also this has not been a bad bargain for PAF. It has allowed them to finally have a plane that they can do what they please with without sanctions or fears of being out of the boundarieds of their contract. It will give them even in its current configuration, without any of these proposed changes, a plane competing with the best that the region has.

Emotional response Araz buddy. JF-17 is a product of desperation, lack of discipline and a half assed approach. Everything inside the aircraft including engine configuration (what was originally designed for a dual engined fighter) is unproven and slapped together at the last moment. Why such a project was not initiated with respects to J-10? That would have at least made some sense as China is flying this bird. The AL31 Russi engine in that bird is 100 times better than the single MiG29 junk fitted to JF-17.

thge last problem is the engine which really remains the last bugbear in the whole conundrum and a big one!! I will gladly accept thatthis is the Achilles heel of the whole plan. However , we all understand that the chinese have made some progress and even though the problem is not resolved, i see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

What light at the end of the tunnel do you see? Paying for outside expertise to rectify this problem? That could be light, but it means that the current situation is dark and fragile.

JF17 like all of PAF's endeavours was a story of great compromise in adversity and it , in my humble opinion has worked out quite well under the circumstances

Like all of PAF's endeavours? Sir with all due respects I know of Squadron Leaders and higher ranks who would disagree whole heartedly and completely. PAF has played a joke and gambled with Pakistan's airspace in both the past and present and no doubt future. The results of which you are starting to see today.

In any case what alternate solution did you have in your mind.

I thank you for taking my opinion seriously. Unlike some I know the problems facing Pakistan and much of it has to do with unqualified people placed in important positions. How about giving a shot to all those aircraft that PAF supposedly flew and concluded that they are too complicated for our infrastructure to absorb. Going with something respected and tested even if it meant not coming with ToT. Pakistan has stayed alive so far without PAF producing everything on it's own. If the capability and expertise is not there why force it? Creating a fighter out of the spare parts bin of the Chinese is not something that is going to hold up well in the coming decades. This aircraft in my opinion will not see a long service life because of all the missing parts needed for this aircraft to be a true symbol of self reliance and air superiority in the region. Export orders will be similarly dismal. We should have gone with a partnership with J-10 or purchased capable platforms from the West. If going to USA was a big issue, there was still other western nations to buy from. PAF knows in full the list of available aircraft that could have been purchased. Or like I mentioned above a partnership with J-10 production. If I am not mistaken, FC-1 project was at many a time running parallel to Vigorous dragon project.

Now if anyone else has a valid opinion feel free to disagree with me. You see how Araz has taken the time to properly present himself and his views. If you've never flown an airplane let alone know what this thread is about, and are willing to debate me with 1 liners, do not engage me and find another thread that suits your taste and ability.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

quite right mirage is very reliable fighter and PAF is using mirages since 1966-68 so factor of experience is there too. other important thing is it will really boost our strike capability because mirages are well renowned for deep strike capability and we can decrease the no of our aging mirages because our existing mirage 3 and 5 are now very old. at the same time we can work on M 53 engine too which under consideration for jf-17 in future...

 

[Mani2020]

1 billion euros plz stop wasting our money for such toys, why we compete with india, we are not controlling our internal situation who we compete with india

r u Pakistani or indian lol

 

[Mani2020]

I request if any of PAF ex or current pilot is here or any personnel related to PAF directly or indirectly who knows the capability of Jf-17 can throw some light here,to remove the conflict going on here

 

[Dazzler]

Let me try...

 

[Kharian_Beast]

"In close combat the JF-17 excels at being truly agile and responsive to the pilot's commands."

..."But everything else is sh**"

This is not World War 2 where being a good dog fighter wins engagements.

 

[Mani2020]

"In close combat the JF-17 excels at being truly agile and responsive to the pilot's commands."

..."But everything else is sh**"

This is not World War 2 where being a good dog fighter wins engagements.

dun b so passimistic stop acting lyk this ,no one knows the inside reality u cant make ur own arguments without seeing and analyzing the real stroy

 

[Mani2020]

Let me try...

dats y i asked for some ex or current Paf pilot to throw some light on different aspects of jf-17 coz two lines like ths cant satisfy Mr KHARIAN BEAST coz he is getting too passimistic