Flood Rescue Underscores 2 Pending IAF Deals

[thestringshredder]

The massive flood relief operations in the north Indian state of Uttarakhand has seen the Indian Air Force and Army Aviation corps deployed in the greatest strength since the 2004 tsunami in the Indian ocean. 45 Indian Air Force aircraft, 11 choppers from the Army, and a small fleet of civilian rotorcraft are working round the clock -- and against time -- to evacuate the most hostile areas of stranded pilgrims and tourists, a week after the state was ravaged by early monsoon flashfloods and torrential rain. The situation remains critical, but the one thing it has done is underscore the importance of two contracts in the pipeline by the IAF as being well worth the time and money that will be spent.

The first is the Lockheed-Martin C-130J Super Hercules. The IAF has three flying out there, landing on short airfields in bad weather -- something it wouldn't do with any of its other transports -- conducting all manner of relief, including personnel insertion, standby hospital services, fuel delivery, evacuation of patients and pilgrims, reconnaissance, surveillance and disaster mapping. The Uttarakhand flood has been the C-130Js first real trial by fire over Indian terrain. For pilots of the 77 Squadron which operates six out of Hindon on Delhi's outskirts, the aircraft is a joy, and they can't wait to get six more. The Indian government is in the final stages of placing an order for six more from the US government.

The second is the IAF's selection of the Boeing CH-47F Chinook. The IAF has a lot of helicopters over Uttarakhand right now, but only one heavylift Mi-26, possibly the only airframe still serviceable. The IAF chose the Chinook over a new generation variant of the Mi-26 in a competitive selection that ended last year. The Mi-26, a glorious chopper that happens to be the largest ever that went into production, is still gravely unsuited for operations in mountainous areas, where its large footprint severely limits where it can hover and land. It's immense downwash is also a problem during emergency evacuations. IAF pilots I've been speaking to say they can't wait till the Chinooks arrive, since their design and capabilities lend perfectly to rescue and relief operations in tricky terrain in all weather.

Link - Livefist: Flood Rescue Underscores 2 Pending IAF Deals

 

[SirHatesALot]

It would be better to have some of these aircraft's under MHA as suggested by one member in another thread.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Glad this is being highlighted. Anyway these things were going to go through this year anyway.


+ 1 out of 4 Mi-26s being serviceable?? tsk tsk

 

[sancho]

Glad this is being highlighted. Anyway these things were going to go through this year anyway.


+ 1 out of 4 Mi-26s being serviceable?? tsk tsk

A nonsense article with the complete wrong conclusions!

The C130Js was only now being able to land at forwarded bases, because there were no suitable airstrips availble and why it was restricted to recon only. So how can we highlight it's short landing performance then?

Simillary, the arrival of CH47 would have not made a difference in the recue operations, since it also would be the excellent Mi 17s, that would do the bulk of the work next to the Dhruvs, which are the real workhorses and should be praised and why the addition of more of them is the important part for IAFs future and not aircrafts that will be procured only for special purposes in smaller numbers.

We might hate the Russian cost increases and delays, the fact however is, their helicopters are highly capable and suitable for such operations and the Mi 17s and even the Mi 26 (more than 25 years old and with a lack of spares), showed highly impressive performances so far!

Btw, even the US acknowledges the capability and roughness of Russian helicopters:

U.S. Army to buy 30 Russian Mi-17 helicopters for use in high, hot areas of Afghanistan

U.S. Army officials are buying 30 Russian-designed medium lift and military attack helicopters for use in Afghanistan. These helicopters perform particularly well in the hot weather and high altitude of Afghanistan...

U.S. Army to buy 30 Russian Mi-17 helicopters for use in high, hot areas of Afghanistan - Military & Aerospace Electronics


Shiv Aroor would have made a better job to praise the currently working helicopters, their pilots and the IA ground forces, rather than foreign procurement which had less or even non participation in the operations so far. If Ajay Shukla would have written the article, we would have called it US biased BS, wouldn't we?

 

[nomi007]

no doubt that both ch-24 and c-130's are best for rescue and relief operation
in past in 2005 and 2010 during earth quick and flood period in Pakistan they perform excellently especially ch-47

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Glad this is being highlighted. Anyway these things were going to go through this year anyway.


+ 1 out of 4 Mi-26s being serviceable?? tsk tsk

So did you now get the answer to TWO of the questions that I asked on the other thread regarding use of aircraft in the current operations?

Plus some other points that I raised on another post on that thread. Now, let us see what transpires.

 

[sancho]

no doubt that both ch-24 and c-130's are best for rescue and relief operation
in past in 2005 and 2010 during earth quick and flood period in Pakistan they perform excellently especially ch-47

Afghan Airmen Fly Aid to Pakistani Flood Victims

...U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Michael R. Boera, commander of NATO Training Mission Afghanistan’s Combined Air Power Transition Force, told bloggers during a "DoD Live" bloggers roundtable yesterday that the Afghan air force is currently flying four Mi-17 helicopters on missions in Pakistan, where monsoon triggered floods have killed some 1,600 and imperiled millions of lives...

...The majority, he said, will be Western-type airframes, and the rest will be Russian models, such as the Mi-17.

The Mi-17 has proven to be effective during relief operations, he added, “because it's got hoist capability, there's more power to it, [and] it's got a common cockpit configuration.”...

Defense.gov News Article: Afghan Airmen Fly Aid to Pakistani Flood Victims

 

[dbc]

no doubt that both ch-24 and c-130's are best for rescue and relief operation
in past in 2005 and 2010 during earth quick and flood period in Pakistan they perform excellently especially ch-47

Yes I remember US Marines transported 5 million pounds of relief supplies to flood victims in 2010 not to mention rescue and evacuation. If I recall correctly that operation involved Osprey, Chinook, Super Stallion,Hercules and C-17's.

The US has offered any and all assistance to India but the Indian government has not responded to the US offer.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...photos-us-military-pakistan-flood-relief.html

 

[Abingdonboy]

A nonsense article with the complete wrong conclusions!

The C130Js was only now being able to land at forwarded bases, because there were no suitable airstrips availble and why it was restricted to recon only. So how can we highlight it's short landing performance then?

Simillary, the arrival of CH47 would have not made a difference in the recue operations, since it also would be the excellent Mi 17s, that would do the bulk of the work next to the Dhruvs, which are the real workhorses and should be praised and why the addition of more of them is the important part for IAFs future and not aircrafts that will be procured only for special purposes in smaller numbers.

We might hate the Russian cost increases and delays, the fact however is, their helicopters are highly capable and suitable for such operations and the Mi 17s and even the Mi 26 (more than 25 years old and with a lack of spares), showed highly impressive performances so far!

Btw, even the US acknowledges the capability and roughness of Russian helicopters:



U.S. Army to buy 30 Russian Mi-17 helicopters for use in high, hot areas of Afghanistan - Military & Aerospace Electronics


Shiv Aroor would have made a better job to praise the currently working helicopters, their pilots and the IA ground forces, rather than foreign procurement which had less or even non participation in the operations so far. If Ajay Shukla would have written the article, we would have called it US biased BS, wouldn't we?

@sancho how can you make such definitive statements when, wrt the Chinook, we are talking about an entirely hypothetical/future scenario. Of COURSE 15 Ch-47Fs would be incredibly useful in the current rescue missions, to say otherwise is just nonsensical. One thing surely you cannot deny, is that with a fleet of 15 of Ch-47Fs almost every single airframe (within reason) will be ready for operations at anyone time- you simply cannot say the same about the Mi-26T2s whose AOG time will/should be reduced but will still be now where near western standards of availability.

The Mi-26s are prohibitively large. The Chinook could be used in foreword areas- the Mi-26 simply can't.


Wrt the Mi-17 V5s yes, they along with the ALHs, are doing a stellar job. If it were possible though I'd prefer to have AW-101s replacing the Mi-17/8 instead of the V5s.

 

[sancho]

@sancho how can you make such definitive statements when, wrt the Chinook, we are talking about an entirely hypothetical/future scenario.

Because I look at IA and IAF and what they do with their helicopter fleets, while you looked at Boeings PR and the US forces and conclude similar things to Indian forces. The Chinooks are not meant for rescue operations in Indian forces, but "mainly" for heavy lift operations to support the build up of helipads, airstrips, or forwarded bases and carry the required logistics. In the current scenario that means lifting the fuel, vehicles or if possible machinery that are badly needed, but can't be transported by road or fixed wing aircrafts, nor by the much higher numbers of Dhruvs or M17s.
That's why I told Capt.Popeye as well, that not the maintainability of a 25 year old Mi 26 is the important point currently, but how fast and effectively the forces could go on with the rescue operations and which capabilities are needed for that.
In this scenario and for these roles, the superior lift and internal capacity of the Mi 26 is clearly a benefit for IAF, since it can lift more and heavier cargo in a single flight and is not dependent on slung load operations, especially because of the current weather conditions. That then paves the way for operating their fixed wing fleet later and to make the rescue operations more effective.

you simply cannot say the same about the Mi-26T2s

On what basis? None of us forumers should have access to the evaluation reports of IAF and MoD right? So we don't know how they ranked the spare supply and aftersale support of RUSSIA today. So you base your opinion now only on the experience we had in the last years after the fall of the Soviet Union, which once is a totally different thing and if you do it, you would need to include the experience of the Sea King helicoperts during santion times as well.
On the other side you can ask yourself...

...did we had any issues with the aftersale support of Mil with the Mi 17s? I
...isn't the order of high numbers of new Mil helicopters a clear sign that our forces don't have an issue?
...isn't the fact that the Mi 26T2 reportedly passed all IAF exercises and requirements for high altitude operations countering the limitations that often are hold against it?

The Mi-26s are prohibitively large. The Chinook could be used in foreword areas- the Mi-26 simply can't.

To do what? Lifting vehicles and machinery, which it can't? Or to recue people, which it don't have to in our forces, since Dhruv and Mi 17s are meant to do that, at much more areas than the Ch 47 can, because of even less size, weight and altitude restrictions!

Again:

LUH, Dhruv, Mi 17 - uttility and tactical operations => therefor in high numbers, to support of IA and preferable under IA control

Mi 26, Ch47, or the best of both the EC FTH - heavy lift and logistical operations => therefor in low numbers and in support of IAFs logistical fleet

I gave you the example of German forces recently too, which will operate LUH and NH90s unter the army, while the CH53s and in future the EC FTHs will be operated by the air force, for heavy lift and logistical operations, alongside the fixedwing fleet.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@sancho wrt how the IAF uses its helos, do you not think the aircraft in question dictates how the force uses it? Yes the Mi-26 is being used to haul troops and fuel to supply bases right now and if the Chinooks were in service then they would be doing the same thing- no doubt. BUT, if the need arises for the Chinook to take supplies/troops to foreward areas then it CAN do so- unlike the Mi-26. Additionally the Chinook CAN be fitted with a winch to rescue survivors - the Mi-26. This is the kind of flexibility any force looking to modernise (like the IAF) needs- not lumbering solo-role relics like the Mi-26.

Like I said the IAF's operational doctrines are type-specifc. When they get the Chinook they will create a doctrine around this bird. Similarly when the IAF gets Rafales they will modify their operational doctrines around this bird or do you think they'll simply keep using the Mig-21 specfic doctrine?

 

[hkdas]

Because I look at IA and IAF and what they do with their helicopter fleets, while you looked at Boeings PR and the US forces and conclude similar things to Indian forces. The Chinooks are not meant for rescue operations in Indian forces, but "mainly" for heavy lift operations to support the build up of helipads, airstrips, or forwarded bases and carry the required logistics. In the current scenario that means lifting the fuel, vehicles or if possible machinery that are badly needed, but can't be transported by road or fixed wing aircrafts, nor by the much higher numbers of Dhruvs or M17s.
That's why I told Capt.Popeye as well, that not the maintainability of a 25 year old Mi 26 is the important point currently, but how fast and effectively the forces could go on with the rescue operations and which capabilities are needed for that.
In this scenario and for these roles, the superior lift and internal capacity of the Mi 26 is clearly a benefit for IAF, since it can lift more and heavier cargo in a single flight and is not dependent on slung load operations, especially because of the current weather conditions. That then paves the way for operating their fixed wing fleet later and to make the rescue operations more effective.




On what basis? None of us forumers should have access to the evaluation reports of IAF and MoD right? So we don't know how they ranked the spare supply and aftersale support of RUSSIA today. So you base your opinion now only on the experience we had in the last years after the fall of the Soviet Union, which once is a totally different thing and if you do it, you would need to include the experience of the Sea King helicoperts during santion times as well.
On the other side you can ask yourself...

...did we had any issues with the aftersale support of Mil with the Mi 17s? I
...isn't the order of high numbers of new Mil helicopters a clear sign that our forces don't have an issue?
...isn't the fact that the Mi 26T2 reportedly passed all IAF exercises and requirements for high altitude operations countering the limitations that often are hold against it?




To do what? Lifting vehicles and machinery, which it can't? Or to recue people, which it don't have to in our forces, since Dhruv and Mi 17s are meant to do that, at much more areas than the Ch 47 can, because of even less size, weight and altitude restrictions!

Again:

LUH, Dhruv, Mi 17 - uttility and tactical operations => therefor in high numbers, to support of IA and preferable under IA control

Mi 26, Ch47, or the best of both the EC FTH - heavy lift and logistical operations => therefor in low numbers and in support of IAFs logistical fleet

I gave you the example of German forces recently too, which will operate LUH and NH90s unter the army, while the CH53s and in future the EC FTHs will be operated by the air force, for heavy lift and logistical operations, alongside the fixedwing fleet.

for your eyes:

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@sancho wrt how the IAF uses its helos, do you not think the aircraft in question dictates how the force uses it? Yes the Mi-26 is being used to haul troops and fuel to supply bases right now and if the Chinooks were in service then they would be doing the same thing- no doubt. BUT, if the need arises for the Chinook to take supplies/troops to foreward areas then it CAN do so- unlike the Mi-26. Additionally the Chinook CAN be fitted with a winch to rescue survivors - the Mi-26. This is the kind of flexibility any force looking to modernise (like the IAF) needs- not lumbering solo-role relics like the Mi-26.

Like I said the IAF's operational doctrines are type-specifc. When they get the Chinook they will create a doctrine around this bird. Similarly when the IAF gets Rafales they will modify their operational doctrines around this bird or do you think they'll simply keep using the Mig-21 specfic doctrine?

If one were to discuss the Chinooks and Mi-26s in tandem (which itself is somewhat fallacious); then one will have to understand that the Chinooks are far better suited to rough field operations. The hulking Mi-26 scores close to zero just on this count. The Mi-17s have had a better serviceability record than the Mi-26s simply because they have been with the IAF in pretty large numbers always. Remember ACM P.V.Naik saying that availability of his Mi-17 fleet averaged 50%. Now that is nothing commendable. While the Mi-17s are cheap to own and operate, their sortie generation rate is inferior to that of the Chinooks. So what one may gain on one end (largely on paper) one loses in actual service.

Let us remember the most important thing now. What is going on in Uttarakhand and H.P. just now is a RESCUE OP. Only later when the weather abates some what, the ground stabilises to some extent (which will really happen when the Monsoon ceases) will the REPAIR & REHAB OP. be able to commence. Only then will there be a call for Earth-Moving Eqpt to be moved up there. Any heavy vehicle moved up into that terrain will only slide and slither into the slush and most likely be written off. Even Light trucks like the TATA 2.5 Tonne payloaders may not be able to access many of the places. It may be more suitable to shift/air-lift Mules for transportation, though they may not be at their best in the slush.

As of now the biggest requirement is for both light and medium-lift helicopters. Heavy-Lifters have a very small role.

 

[Gessler]

The massive flood relief operations in the north Indian state of Uttarakhand has seen the Indian Air Force and Army Aviation corps deployed in the greatest strength since the 2004 tsunami in the Indian ocean. 45 Indian Air Force aircraft, 11 choppers from the Army, and a small fleet of civilian rotorcraft are working round the clock -- and against time -- to evacuate the most hostile areas of stranded pilgrims and tourists, a week after the state was ravaged by early monsoon flashfloods and torrential rain. The situation remains critical, but the one thing it has done is underscore the importance of two contracts in the pipeline by the IAF as being well worth the time and money that will be spent.

The first is the Lockheed-Martin C-130J Super Hercules. The IAF has three flying out there, landing on short airfields in bad weather -- something it wouldn't do with any of its other transports -- conducting all manner of relief, including personnel insertion, standby hospital services, fuel delivery, evacuation of patients and pilgrims, reconnaissance, surveillance and disaster mapping. The Uttarakhand flood has been the C-130Js first real trial by fire over Indian terrain. For pilots of the 77 Squadron which operates six out of Hindon on Delhi's outskirts, the aircraft is a joy, and they can't wait to get six more. The Indian government is in the final stages of placing an order for six more from the US government.

The second is the IAF's selection of the Boeing CH-47F Chinook. The IAF has a lot of helicopters over Uttarakhand right now, but only one heavylift Mi-26, possibly the only airframe still serviceable. The IAF chose the Chinook over a new generation variant of the Mi-26 in a competitive selection that ended last year. The Mi-26, a glorious chopper that happens to be the largest ever that went into production, is still gravely unsuited for operations in mountainous areas, where its large footprint severely limits where it can hover and land. It's immense downwash is also a problem during emergency evacuations. IAF pilots I've been speaking to say they can't wait till the Chinooks arrive, since their design and capabilities lend perfectly to rescue and relief operations in tricky terrain in all weather.

Link - Livefist: Flood Rescue Underscores 2 Pending IAF Deals

Bigger picture: -

 

[Capt.Popeye]

for your eyes:

Those Pictures speak what many words may not even be able to.
Can Mi-17s do things like that depicted in Pics 1,4,5,6,7 for instance?