Finally! India to Sign Rafale Deal by December! Draft Contract Prepared!

[Archie]

And Finally the actual price of the Rafale jets (which no one wants to buy yet), will now be DOUBLE the price...excellent Indian Strategic and Economic thinking.

If India Doesnot buy the Rafale
then Rafale Production will end in 2018 and Dessault will be cut out of the fighter market till 2040, when french plan to field a replacement for Rafale

It will also be a Boast to Sukhoi and HAL since the immediate action for IAF will be to order 40 more Su30 MKI to arrest the decline in squadron strength below the critical level of 34 Fighter Sqds
Long term action could be increasing the LCA MK1/2 order from 123 to 250

 

[The Sultan Erdogan]

No they did not. EF and Rafale were both found suitable, and the cheaper one was selected.

Didn't know that.

What major advantage EU has over block 60 in the eyes of IAF, if you know about it?

I rate F-16 block 60 in 4.5 generation category.

If you want to pretend to be Erdogan and not Safriz, just replace the "your" with "their". The factual content of my post remains the same.

But why should I replace anything when I did not compare the pilots of two nations to begin with? Infact, if look at the latest thread I posted, it is about how IAF pilots thrashed USAF in cope india.

I won't make any comparisons between IAF and PAF pilots. I just said that PAF F-16 pilots are very capable. IAF pilots might be better, who knows? But I can't say anything since I have no way of knowing.

However, I have first hand knowledge of PAF F-16 pilots and IDAF F-16 pilots and I can make a comparison (though it is a redundant thing to do)...

I just know for a fact that PAF F-16 pilots have been consistently rated above IDAF F-16 pilots by Turkish defense officials who have worked with both air forces for years now on.

 

[kaykay]

@The Sultan Erdogan Few advantages Rafale had over block60s are this: (my point of view).
1. Super cruise (up to 1.4 mach).
2. Spectra EW suite.
3. twin engines and more load with more hard points.
4. More combat radius.
5. French were ready to give full ToT of many critical techs like AESA.
6. F16s failed high altitude trials in Leh while Rafale and Typhoon passed the same.
These are some advantages I see at first sight. There are more though like low RCS.

 

[DingDong]

I don't know what you mean by having no counter to an aerial threat...but in my books, it is as if the aerial threat in discussion is somehow invincible.

And that can only be F-22A...

Rafale is certainly not "invincible" against F-16 block 52 piloted by very able pilots.

Would Rafale have an advantage? Yes.

Are Rafales unbeatable in such scenario? No.

Your whole "able pilots" logic is flawed and boring unless you believe in that old 1 of us = 10 of them theory which itself is severely flawed. The battle is not going to happen like "tom vs harry". Indian Jets will be flown by the IAF Pilots.

During war there will be attrition, nothing is unbreakable We select platforms which suite our doctrine, our specification and our pocket.

F-16 and F-18 failed the tests. In case of Mig-35 and Gripen there was a huge mismatch between what they showed in the product catalogue and what the machines actually looked like.

EF and Rafale were declared joint winners, but the cheaper one grabbed the trophy. Had the Mirage-2000 assembly line not been shut own, we might have dropped the whole idea of floating a MMRCA tender. France has proven itself as a reliable supplier which tilts the scale further in favour of Rafale.

 

[UKBengali]

Didn't know that.

What major advantage EU has over block 60 in the eyes of IAF, if you know about it?

I rate F-16 block 60 in 4.5 generation category.



But why should I replace anything when I did not compare the pilots of two nations to begin with? Infact, if look at the latest thread I posted, it is about how IAF pilots thrashed USAF in cope india.

I won't make any comparisons between IAF and PAF pilots. I just said that PAF F-16 pilots are very capable. IAF pilots might be better, who knows? But I can't say anything since I have no way of knowing.

However, I have first hand knowledge of PAF F-16 pilots and IDAF F-16 pilots and I can make a comparison (though it is a redundant thing to do)...

I just know for a fact that PAF F-16 pilots have been consistently rated above IDAF F-16 pilots by Turkish defense officials who have worked with both air forces for years now on.

Rafale and Eurofighter have advantages over the F-16 in terms of lower RCS, better airframe and higher T/W ratios due to twin engines.

F-16 Block-60 is inferior to Rafale. Not saying a Rafale would always beat a F-16 but it would win more often than lose.

 

[indoPunjabi]

Rafael deal may be signed in December 2015. why don't we have a sticky thread to predict rafael deal signing date. It's getting so boring reading the same shit over n over for years now!

 

[The Sultan Erdogan]

Rafale and Eurofighter have advantages over the F-16 in terms of lower RCS, better airframe and higher T/W ratios due to twin engines.

F-16 Block-60 is inferior to Rafale. Not saying a Rafale would always beat a F-16 but it would win more often than lose.

True that.

 

[The SC]

Let me make my argument with the simplest of examples.

Any tier 2 football team, like Columbia,Croatia etc can beat Brazilian football team under certain conditions, especially at home.
However it is very unlikely and won't happen a lot.

Similarly, yes F 16 Blk 52 can bring down a MKI or Rafale, but Rafale or MKI is more likely to come out on top in any engagement.

And these things even out over the course of a war, leaving superior platform as the decisive winner.

You are right, since the Brazilian team is Pakistan's pilots. So here we go... it is a good example, meaning that even with some good players you can barely win sometimes and that has to be mostly at home.

 

[greatone]

You are right. And the Brazilian team is Pakistan pilots. So here we go...

Great argument.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I wonder what Pakistan Air Force will come up as a response to this deal.

Upgraded J-10Bs or a customized PAF version of J-10C fighter aircraft will do.

At 270 Su-30MKIs, 126 Rafales, and hundreds of Mig-29s....Indian Air Force will definitely be a force to reckon with.

Pakistan, in comparison, will also have a massive air force with 80+ F-16s, 150+ JF-17 Thunders block II and block IIIs, and may be J-10Bs (as counter to Rafale deal)

As fifth generation fighter jets will enter subcontinent, it will become the most concentrated and contested battle-space for aerial warfare in 21st century....as I see no other area where such massive, sophisticated, and larger air forces have a very good chance to entering a larger scale destructive conflict..

Too much imbalance unfortunately we even cancelled our J10B

If we had bought 36 J10B I would say ok some improvement in Pakistan airforce

But our purchase of 10 F16 used ones vs 120 Rafael or another 100 Sukhoi is no real comparison

Our airforce is behind 100-200 jets


We will just have to go Nuclear weapon first sign of invasion, it is what it is , first sign of agreesion with this imbalance Nuclear weapons would be used

 

[MilSpec]

The IAF sources complained about efforts by some Indians to sow doubts and make the IAF leadership ‘weak-kneed’ by publicising wrong information in sections of the media ‘at the behest of a foreign competitor’.


ref: Ajai shukla: Boeing

 

[Abingdonboy]

I wonder what Pakistan Air Force will come up as a response to this deal.

Nothing, they haven't got the funds to compete. The PAF brass admitted recently that they haven't got the means to implement their 2020 vision for modernisation so it is nothing but fantasy to think they could go over and above the current allocated expenditure (that as I've said is insufficient) for any other,more capable, platforms. Even if the Chinese were willing to offer J-10Bs on a "soft-loan" purchase the PAF would unlikely be able to afford to fly them.

Pakistan, in comparison, will also have a massive air force with 80+ F-16s, 150+ JF-17 Thunders block II and block IIIs, and may be J-10Bs (as counter to Rafale deal)

That's "massive" to you?

The IAF sources complained about efforts by some Indians to sow doubts and make the IAF leadership ‘weak-kneed’ by publicising wrong information in sections of the media ‘at the behest of a foreign competitor’.


ref: Ajai shukla: Boeing

Spot on sir! Absolutely spot on! I've told you it was misinformation all along!

Correct me if I am wrong though sir- the F-35 is a Lockhead Martin product, not Boeing.

 

[The Sultan Erdogan]

That's "massive" to you?

In a single war-threatre comprising of few hundred kilometers, hundreds of 4th generation aircraft is "massive" by any measure.

When has it happened before? Never.

(Don't give me examples from 2nd or 3rd generation era...Today, 1 4th generation fighter jet is more capable and lethal than 10 spitfires or whatever)

 

[Bang Galore]

The IAF sources complained about efforts by some Indians to sow doubts and make the IAF leadership ‘weak-kneed’ by publicising wrong information in sections of the media ‘at the behest of a foreign competitor’.


ref: Ajai shukla: Boeing

Quote from "The IAF sources"......... About as reliable as Ajai Shukla......

In any case, I find a december date odd, 3/4th of our way into the budgetary year, unlikely there will be any money available in the IAF's capital budget allocated. Especially after the imminent signing of the chopper deals with the U.S. Most likely that we might have to wait for the next budget for actual allocation.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Rafale and Eurofighter have advantages over the F-16 in terms of lower RCS, better airframe and higher T/W ratios due to twin engines.

F-16 Block-60 is inferior to Rafale. Not saying a Rafale would always beat a F-16 but it would win more often than lose.

What about the electronics on board? The Spectra suite and the AESA radar Indian Rafales will bring are real game changers for the region.

Quote from "The IAF sources"......... About as reliable as Ajai Shukla......

In any case, I find a december date odd, 3/4th of our way into the budgetary year, unlikely there will be any money available in the IAF's capital budget allocated. Especially after the imminent signing of the chopper deals with the U.S. Most likely that we might have to wait for the next budget for actual allocation.

Actually it fits precisely with what both the IAF and Dassualt have been saying- the end of 2014 OR end of 2014-15 financial year. The IAF would only have to pay around $1.6BN upfront (not the full $16BN) and it is possible the Rafale deal has been budgeted for from the start of this FY (as was the case last year) so that money is there ready to go. Or perhaps the deal is signed in December locking the agreement in place an funds released 4 months later in April (start of new FY).