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F-16, Su-30MKI Face Off During Singapore-India Joint Military Exercise

No doubt SU-30 is a potent machine and like all other aircraft it has it's advantages and disadvantages, on plus side it carries a great weapon load and has long endurance also the benefit of twin engines, on the minus side apart from it's serviceability issues, it generates a big RCS, it's never seen any actual combat, recently while flying in clean nconfiguration against a Typhoon, which was supporting drop tanks, the MKI had to repeatedly engage it's TVC to maintain the turn.
The much flaunted TVC is open to debate and i will quote a reputable source to the effect.



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A ) You are quoting Owr own OSCAR ; you should get a quote from a Real Air force Person
preferably a fighter pilot

B ) How do you look at the 10000 Feet difference in Service Ceiling between the Two planes
 
F 16 shall be badly humiliated. When euro fighter went down by 13 to 0 than what is the class of F 16. Nothing except Su 35 can stand against MKI.

PAF F-16s also happen to have a history of defeating Typhoons in mock combat, as do French Rafales against F-22s. I think it's apparent that results obtained from controlled mock dogfights isn't exactly reflective of performances during actual hostilities.
 
PAF F-16s also happen to have a history of defeating Typhoons in mock combat, as do French Rafales against F-22s. I think it's apparent that results obtained from controlled mock dogfights isn't exactly reflective of performances during actual hostilities.

Than let us wait for the result.
 
A ) You are quoting Owr own OSCAR ; you should get a quote from a Real Air force Person
preferably a fighter pilot
Oscar wasn't exactly creating or giving his own ideas, military observers have argued about the system, they say, last thing is you want to be out of power and energy and dangling in the sky.
B ) How do you look at the 10000 Feet difference in Service Ceiling between the Two planes
To be frank, i'm not sure what benefit that offers in air to air combat.
 
To be frank, i'm not sure what benefit that offers in air to air combat.

I'll Enlighten You Son,

The Year is : 2006

For 25 years it was India’s elusive eye in the sky, keeping a constant watch over the enemy deep inside his own territory and yet remaining beyond his reach. It was the awesome MiG-25, capable of flying too fast and too high to care much about enemy radars, fighters and missiles.

After all those secret missions over Pakistan and China, the MiG-25s are now set to retire. They are at the end of their lifespan, and so prohibitively expensive to maintain and operate. The formal de-commissioning ceremony is scheduled to be held at the Bareilly Air Force Station, where these aircraft are based, on May 1. The present MiG-25 squadron members as well as officers and personnel who had served in the squadron earlier, including those who have retired, would be attending the ceremony.


It is no secret that the MiG-25 flew in hostile airspace as a matter of routine, though, of course, there are no public records to validate this. One incident which lends credence to this is a “sonic boom” heard over Islamabad in May 1997, which is attributable to a MiG-25 deliberately going supersonic to pique the Pakistanis. The boom caused panic amongst the residents of Islamabad. According to reports, the Pakistani Air Force scrambled its F-16s, but the MiG-25 was too fast and too high for them.

Cruising in the outer fringes of the atmosphere, the 40-tonne MiG-25 had no parallel in the arena of gathering high value intelligence and strategic reconnaissance, and gave the IAF an immense advantage. Flying at nearly three times the speed of sound at altitudes above 90,000 feet, it was too high and fast for any fighter to intercept or missile to lock on to. Their task would now be taken over by satellites and unmanned aerial vehicles, supplemented with combat aircraft equipped with reconnaissance pods.

The MiG-25s are also believed to have monitored Chinese troop movements in NEFA following reports of incursions in the eighties and early nineties, photographed militant training camps across the Line of Control, mapped enemy positions during Operation Vijay in Kargil in 1999 and kept a close eye on Pakistani formations during Operation Parakram in 2002. Given the capabilities of its high-powered cameras, it could have accomplished much of the work while flying within Indian airspace.

It was in 1981 that the Indian Air Force procured eight MiG-25R single seat reconnaissance aircraft and two MiG-25U conversion trainers from the erstwhile Soviet Union. These were flown to India in a dismantled state and assembled and flight-tested by the Russians at Bareilly. The induction of these aircraft led to the IAF raising the highly secretive No.102 Squadron, nicknamed Trisonics, with Wg Cdr A. Singh as its first Commanding Officer (CO). Codenamed Foxbat by NATO, the aircraft was christened Garuda by the IAF, after the high flying celestial mount of Lord Vishnu in Indian mythology.

The MiG-25 made its official debut in Indian skies on August 25, 1981, when the then Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal I.H. Latif flew a sortie in a two-seater trainer. A month before he retired, he took a MiG-25 up to 90,000 feet.

For induction of the MiG-25, a 14-member team of pilots and engineering officers were sent to Russia for training. “It was an intense course lasting six months, consisting of theoretical classes as well as practicals” Air Cmde S.S. Bisht (retd), who was among the Trisonics’ founding members, said. Normally, such pre-induction courses last 3–4 months. “There was a lot of work to be done in the initial stages and the aircraft were in the air every day. Regular night sorties were also flown,” he added.

A mere handful of lucky pilots got to fly the mean machine. Only officers of the level of wing commanders and above who had sufficient experience flying fighters were selected for the squadron. “Given the requirements, we wanted pilots who were senior enough and since flying was restricted due to the nature of operations, pilots who had almost finished their active flying life were chosen,” former Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal P.S Brar said.

Air Marshal Brar also had a chance to fly in a trainer version and he termed the sortie as a “phenomenal experience”. He said that one can count on his fingertips, the number of people who get to fly at nearly three times the speed of sound at a height of over 20 kilometers.

The MiG-25 was designed for reconnaissance and high altitude interception as a counter to the US SR-71 Blackbird strategic reconnaissance aircraft and the XB-70 Valkyrie strategic bombers, both of which were capable of Mach 3 performance. While the super-secret Blackbird remained in US service for several decades, the Valkyrie never went into production.

On October 5, 1967, the MiG-25 set a record of 1852.61 mph (2981 kmph) and carried a 2,000 kg payload to an altitude of 98,349 feet (30 kms). Soviets have taken a MiG 25 to an altitude of 1,23,000 feet.

A slew of altitude and speed records broken by the MiG-25 led to former US Secretary of the Air Force, Robert Seamans describing the MiG-25 as “probably the best interceptor in production in the world today”. Two versions were developed, one a combat version armed with four AA-6 Acrid long range air to air missiles and the other a reconnaissance version carrying several cameras in its nose. A two-seater version for conversion training was also developed.

And Then This "Catch me - IF YOU CAN" Happened :

Sonic boom that was heard across the region: In May 1997, an IAF Mikoyan MiG-25RB reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Islamabad following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet over Islamabad to pique the Pakistanis where otherwise the mission would have remained covert at least to the general public.

The sonic boom was heard through most of Islamabad and created quite a ripple. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate act to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25.

The PAF to their credit did scramble their F-16s to intercept our cheerful intruder but to no avail. The F-16 goes up to only 55,000' and by the time the F-16s would get up to that altitude the MiG-25 could easily be 125 kms away even at its cruise speed. To the observer on the ground a sonic boom sounds like a loud repeated thunder clap you normally associate with a thunder storm.
 
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No doubt SU-30 is a potent machine and like all other aircraft it has it's advantages and disadvantages, on plus side it carries a great weapon load and has long endurance also the benefit of twin engines, on the minus side apart from it's serviceability issues, it generates a big RCS, it's never seen any actual combat, recently while flying in clean nconfiguration against a Typhoon, which was supporting drop tanks, the MKI had to repeatedly engage it's TVC to maintain the turn.
The much flaunted TVC is open to debate and i will quote a reputable source to the effect.

Nice analysis but you have left some points, so allow me to add few of them for the readers sake

1. First MKI and Typhoon are both Air Superiority fighter Jet, and they are not meant for dogfight. TVC in MKI is for quickly turning its nose to the direction to fire its Missiles toward enemy. The advantage of TVC cannot be denied, and thats why Typhoon is soon going to get with the TVC development of EJ200 engine.

2. Second MKI have a distinticive advantage of having a WSO, a co pilot, which allows pilot to concentrate on flying, and WSO could handle the aiming, radars, jamming and countermeasure.

3. The exercise like Indradhanush is not meant to compete, rather to devices the common procedure to work as friendly forces during combined exercise or operation, and to know each other airforce, their way of working etc. So comparison on basis of such exercise is just foolish attempt.

4. As far as big RCS is conserned, this have been explained nth time, and you are such a senior member still posting such post, that the air superiority fighter like F-15, MKI, don't need to lower its RCS, because, they will always fly high, openly and have the advantage of long range BVR and powerful RADAR. Also the air superiority fighter like MKI have OLS on its nose, and the Big radome radar, could also be used as passive sensor, and could use as an advantage, without giving its location from long distance.

5. Fighter planes like MKI, not only could carry more firepower, and missiles but also could fly high giving long BVR range.

6. As far as Helmet mounted targeting system is conserned, MKI do have Sura Helmet, and with Super Sukhoi probably Dash Helmet with R-73, Python 5 offbore sight, dangerous WVR missile.
 
Oscar wasn't exactly creating or giving his own ideas, military observers have argued about the system, they say, last thing is you want to be out of power and energy and dangling in the sky.

You are referring to aerobatic manuvers of Su 30 MKI

However for a fighter pilot these are Characterisics of SUPER Manuverability which
is used very effectively in Air combat
 
Well since now you are talking about takings risks, the entire world accused Pakistan about what it did with the tail of the stealth black hawk that was left behind. Since I am not an inside guy my words mean nothing, you can google it yourself and decide what the truth is. My whole point is you have no idea how deep things go when you talk about Pakistan and China.
very good, sir.. first bin laden, and now you're breaching a military contract and giving the Chinese their fighters to have a good look at.

jeevey pakistan :pakistan:
 
bs, Pakistan is not allowed to use American F 16s with the Chinese

do you have a link for any PAF vs PLAAF war games where you used F 16s ?

Certainly I was surprised also, when the people here start talking like having a ride as secondary pilot on the tandem seat gives all insight of IAF su 30mki to PAF.

Question for Pakistani and Chinese Members
1. does any Chinese flanker have Bars MMR
2. Why didn't us allow AIM 120C-7, and AIM-9x to Pakistan for its F-16, if not why winjammer is excited for JHCMS
3. Does PAF have F-15 to give the advantage of air superiority over the enemy space, so that F-16 becomes undefeatable bird, and unchallenged bird in the air.
4. Does US technicians are present in the all the PAF bases with f-16, to deprive US technology theft to the Chinese, and it comes to PAF which could not be used against India in WAR.
5. Which PAF fighter plane have IRST.
 
Certainly I was surprised also, when the people here start talking like having a ride as secondary pilot on the tandem seat gives all insight of IAF su 30mki to PAF.

Question for Pakistani and Chinese Members
1. does any Chinese flanker have Bars MMR
2. Why didn't us allow AIM 120C-7, and AIM-9x to Pakistan for its F-16, if not why winjammer is excited for JHCMS
3. Does PAF have F-15 to give the advantage of air superiority over the enemy space, so that F-16 becomes undefeatable bird, and unchallenged bird in the air.
4. Does US technicians are present in the all the PAF bases with f-16, to deprive US technology theft to the Chinese, and it comes to PAF which could not be used against India in WAR.
5. Which PAF fighter plane have IRST.
the only thing Chinese flankers share in common with the IAF mki is the airframe, and Pakistan is barred from any joint exercise where they could use their F16s to sniff for the flanker rcs.

I suppose they could participate with other nations using the flanker, but even that would mean little in terms of knowing the mki's capability.
 
Soviets have taken a MiG 25 to an altitude of 1,23,000 feet.
This Plane is the technology marvel at that time. NATO and US was confused, with this plane untill one pilot deserted one MIG 25 to Japan, and when the western world open up, they were surprised ,that he equipments were all based on inferior technology and not on solid state electronic, but after decades, they founds that soviet did that for the reason, that makes it unaffected with the radiation, and electronic impulse attack.
 
I still believe we should have kept it as a High Altitude Bomber
The cost of maintainance, spares, parts, lubrication is too high and gives little advantage in the present age when India have Space based satellite for surveillance purpose. However Russia did propose MIG-31, which is new avatar to India.

I'll Enlighten You Son,

The Year is : 2006

For 25 years it was India’s elusive eye in the sky, keeping a constant watch over the enemy deep inside his own territory and yet remaining beyond his reach. It was the awesome MiG-25, capable of flying too fast and too high to care much about enemy radars, fighters and missiles.

After all those secret missions over Pakistan and China, the MiG-25s are now set to retire. They are at the end of their lifespan, and so prohibitively expensive to maintain and operate. The formal de-commissioning ceremony is scheduled to be held at the Bareilly Air Force Station, where these aircraft are based, on May 1. The present MiG-25 squadron members as well as officers and personnel who had served in the squadron earlier, including those who have retired, would be attending the ceremony.


It is no secret that the MiG-25 flew in hostile airspace as a matter of routine, though, of course, there are no public records to validate this. One incident which lends credence to this is a “sonic boom” heard over Islamabad in May 1997, which is attributable to a MiG-25 deliberately going supersonic to pique the Pakistanis. The boom caused panic amongst the residents of Islamabad. According to reports, the Pakistani Air Force scrambled its F-16s, but the MiG-25 was too fast and too high for them.

Cruising in the outer fringes of the atmosphere, the 40-tonne MiG-25 had no parallel in the arena of gathering high value intelligence and strategic reconnaissance, and gave the IAF an immense advantage. Flying at nearly three times the speed of sound at altitudes above 90,000 feet, it was too high and fast for any fighter to intercept or missile to lock on to. Their task would now be taken over by satellites and unmanned aerial vehicles, supplemented with combat aircraft equipped with reconnaissance pods.

The MiG-25s are also believed to have monitored Chinese troop movements in NEFA following reports of incursions in the eighties and early nineties, photographed militant training camps across the Line of Control, mapped enemy positions during Operation Vijay in Kargil in 1999 and kept a close eye on Pakistani formations during Operation Parakram in 2002. Given the capabilities of its high-powered cameras, it could have accomplished much of the work while flying within Indian airspace.

It was in 1981 that the Indian Air Force procured eight MiG-25R single seat reconnaissance aircraft and two MiG-25U conversion trainers from the erstwhile Soviet Union. These were flown to India in a dismantled state and assembled and flight-tested by the Russians at Bareilly. The induction of these aircraft led to the IAF raising the highly secretive No.102 Squadron, nicknamed Trisonics, with Wg Cdr A. Singh as its first Commanding Officer (CO). Codenamed Foxbat by NATO, the aircraft was christened Garuda by the IAF, after the high flying celestial mount of Lord Vishnu in Indian mythology.

The MiG-25 made its official debut in Indian skies on August 25, 1981, when the then Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal I.H. Latif flew a sortie in a two-seater trainer. A month before he retired, he took a MiG-25 up to 90,000 feet.

For induction of the MiG-25, a 14-member team of pilots and engineering officers were sent to Russia for training. “It was an intense course lasting six months, consisting of theoretical classes as well as practicals” Air Cmde S.S. Bisht (retd), who was among the Trisonics’ founding members, said. Normally, such pre-induction courses last 3–4 months. “There was a lot of work to be done in the initial stages and the aircraft were in the air every day. Regular night sorties were also flown,” he added.

A mere handful of lucky pilots got to fly the mean machine. Only officers of the level of wing commanders and above who had sufficient experience flying fighters were selected for the squadron. “Given the requirements, we wanted pilots who were senior enough and since flying was restricted due to the nature of operations, pilots who had almost finished their active flying life were chosen,” former Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal P.S Brar said.

Air Marshal Brar also had a chance to fly in a trainer version and he termed the sortie as a “phenomenal experience”. He said that one can count on his fingertips, the number of people who get to fly at nearly three times the speed of sound at a height of over 20 kilometers.

The MiG-25 was designed for reconnaissance and high altitude interception as a counter to the US SR-71 Blackbird strategic reconnaissance aircraft and the XB-70 Valkyrie strategic bombers, both of which were capable of Mach 3 performance. While the super-secret Blackbird remained in US service for several decades, the Valkyrie never went into production.

On October 5, 1967, the MiG-25 set a record of 1852.61 mph (2981 kmph) and carried a 2,000 kg payload to an altitude of 98,349 feet (30 kms). Soviets have taken a MiG 25 to an altitude of 1,23,000 feet.

A slew of altitude and speed records broken by the MiG-25 led to former US Secretary of the Air Force, Robert Seamans describing the MiG-25 as “probably the best interceptor in production in the world today”. Two versions were developed, one a combat version armed with four AA-6 Acrid long range air to air missiles and the other a reconnaissance version carrying several cameras in its nose. A two-seater version for conversion training was also developed.

And Then This "Catch me - IF YOU CAN" Happened :

Sonic boom that was heard across the region: In May 1997, an IAF Mikoyan MiG-25RB reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Islamabad following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet over Islamabad to pique the Pakistanis where otherwise the mission would have remained covert at least to the general public.


The sonic boom was heard through most of Islamabad and created quite a ripple. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate act to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25.

The PAF to their credit did scramble their F-16s to intercept our cheerful intruder but to no avail. The F-16 goes up to only 55,000' and by the time the F-16s would get up to that altitude the MiG-25 could easily be 125 kms away even at its cruise speed. To the observer on the ground a sonic boom sounds like a loud repeated thunder clap you normally associate with a thunder storm.
F-15/F-14 with long range BVR like AIM 120 c-7/9, AIM-53 Pheonix could catch MIG 25. But once MIG 25 achieved its max altitude, no way. Heard Once MIG-31 sucessfully catch SR-71, and that was the last time, and US stopped sending its SR-71 to USSR for survellance.
 
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Hard to come up Pakistan's F-16 capabilities from that of Singapore. Every different nation has different strategies and trainings.
See in Syria pussy cat F 16s will not dare to come out with SUs roaming around. strategies and training you can not beat a more capable plan/ This is not World WII where you had to fight dog w
The cost of maintainance, spares, parts, lubrication is too high and gives little advantage in the present age when India have Space based satellite for surveillance purpose. However Russia did propose MIG-35, which is new avatar to India.


F-15/F-14 with long range BVR like AIM 120 c-7/9, AIM-53 Pheonix could catch MIG 25. But once MIG 25 achieved its max altitude, no way. Heard Once MIG-25 sucessfully catch SR-71, and that was the last time, and US stopped sending its SR-71 to USSR for survellance.

MIG 25 is retired From IAF now, it used to touch edge of the top Atmosphere.

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