Dismissal of Muslim student for sporting beard stayed

[FireFighter]

Yeah sounded very credible, first two paragraph - A sweeping generalization, and second talking of diversity....

So this is your reply to my argument? My satirical response in the first paragraph went well over your head it seems.

Is that all you got to offer? If you cant even argue or discuss a human issue of rights head-to-head like a man then why even bother making a comment? And even if you make a comment than have the moral courage to be scrutinized.

سارے جہاں سے اچھا ہندوستاں ہمارا
ہم بلبليں ہيں اس کي، يہ گلستاں ہمارا

غربت ميں ہوں اگر ہم، رہتا ہے دل وطن ميں
سمجھو وہيں ہميں بھي، دل ہو جہاں ہمارا

پربت وہ سب سے اونچا، ہمسايہ آسماں کا
وہ سنتري ہمارا، وہ پاسباں ہمارا

گودي ميں کھيلتي ہيں اس کي ہزاروں ندياں
گلشن ہے جن کے دم سے رشک جناں ہمارا

اے آب رود گنگا، وہ دن ہيں ياد تجھ کو؟
اترا ترے کنارے جب کارواں ہمارا

مذہب نہيں سکھاتا آپس ميں بير رکھنا
ہندي ہيں ہم وطن ہے ہندوستاں ہمارا

يونان و مصر و روما سب مٹ گئے جہاں سے
اب تک مگر ہے باقي نام و نشاں ہمارا

کچھ بات ہے کہ ہستي مٹتي نہيں ہماري
صديوں رہا ہے دشمن دور زماں ہمارا

اقبال! کوئي محرم اپنا نہيں جہاں ميں
معلوم کيا کسي کو درد نہاں ہمارا

You know who wrote it rite. I agree with him.

So do I. Remember the historical context in which it was written.

the hindu-staan term refers to the period when most of the subcontinent was ruled by Muslim emperors . FYI, all countries with names ending with a stan are predominently muslim ...

 

[Skeptic]

And the typical Indian flip-flop

Pakistani Flip-Flop was in reference to : http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...k-now-says-no-baloch-dossier-given-india.html

the core issue at hand which is discriminiation against muslims at the Judicial level

Core issue at hand is right to practice and profess one’s religion.

trivial spelling mistakes

No, It shows the level of generalization

I suggest you leave that job to Bollywood as it specializes in hiding internal issues over the cloud it creates over peoples minds.

Yup, the bollywood rant and you expect an answer??

Since you're not addressing any of the issues I raised in my last post shows you're trying to find a backdoor.

No Sir, I am sick or treading the same path several times over.

It took your ex Minister Jaswant Singh 5 years of research to build some sense and 70+ years to grow the moral courage to speak so openly about the systematic and institutional discrimination against Muslims in India.

I have already spoken about your so called systematic and institutional discrimination against Muslims in India refer to http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/31908-secularism-india.html

Once again dont make a fool of yourself by claiming to represent all Indians. India is a very diverse country with dozens of officially languages and religions practiced. I know Indians ranging from illetrates who cant even read or comprehend to intellectuals who don't even believe in secularism.

The claim I made was that all the Indians like India- You want to debate that??

The ruling elites and major political parties are in agreement with a secularism in india that befits their socio-religious-economic ideologies, not every Akbar, Raj, Sukhbir and Micheal.

We dont have just ruling elites. We conduct general elections where people choose their representatives and reflect their views.

You're clearly blinded by your layer of Indian patriotism. Open yourself up I suggest and argue based on principles not on patriotic emotionalism.

I am open for any discussion, till the time you hold your generalization and jingoism.

So this is your reply to my argument? My satirical response in the first paragraph went well over your head it seems.

Hope this suffices.

If you cant even argue or discuss a human issue of rights head-to-head like a man then why even bother making a comment?

There are several other threads for those Human Issues where I've expressed my thoughts.

And even if you make a comment than have the moral courage to be scrutinized.

Do you think you possess the neutrality to judge and scrutinize?

the hindu-staan term refers to the period when most of the subcontinent was ruled by Muslim emperors . FYI, all countries with names ending with a stan are predominently muslim

So, was it not part of Indian History?

 

[Hulk]

Hi,
This is my first post in this forum, but I have been reading for a while. I know most of you already but I am new to you (Started my introduction thread). Coming to point. I have no issue if someone wants to sport a beard. I see some people comparing with Sikhs, I do not see the comparison right, the reason is Sikhs have consistency all of them have beard and wear turban. The same does not holds true for Muslims. So it seems beard is not mandatory for them, so you should not argue with school rules on religious ground on something which not mandatory for you. It seems more of ego issue then anything else. I also feel that some people take religion everywhere, which I feel creates rift within people. I am against it irrespective of religion. I will allow anyone to have beard or to wear burqa in it is mandatory by religion, but then be consistent.

Cheers IndianRabbit

 

[fhassan]

Yaar, tell this to my wife, she won't even let me grow a mustache leave alone a beard. And I hate shaving...

apney be've no'un Das:

jeday caul much nahey othay caul cuch nahey.

 

[Skeptic]

Hi,
This is my first post in this forum, but I have been reading for a while. I know most of you already but I am new to you (Started my introduction thread).

Welcome.

Coming to point. I have no issue if someone wants to sport a beard. I see some people comparing with Sikhs, I do not see the comparison right, the reason is Sikhs have consistency all of them have beard and wear turban.

Since you are from USA
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/world/asia/29turban.html

The same does not holds true for Muslims. So it seems beard is not mandatory for them, so you should not argue with school rules on religious ground on something which not mandatory for you.

And judges can make statement like Beard promotes Talibanism?

I also feel that some people take religion everywhere, which I feel creates rift within people. I am against it irrespective of religion.

Why should anyone be bothered by other person's religion? You are against what? Beard or decision? Do you think you know indian constitution better than the bench of Supreme Court Judges?

I will allow anyone to have beard or to wear burqa in it is mandatory by religion, but then be consistent.

No-One needs your permission for sporting a beard of keeping a choti. Who gives such permissions? Did you ask someone before getting a Tattoo/ear Piercing? Name one religion that is entirely consistent.
Hindu's: On Holi Chennai does not even know and how many north Indians celebrate Pongal?
Muslims: On this thread we've had contrasting vies. Shias or Sunnis
Sikhs: Demonstrated a few are cutting hair.
Christians: Which one??? Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Protestantism...
and these differences emerge with time. Hinduism is the oldest and thus most diversified Sikhism is more recent thus less so.

 

[Hulk]

Welcome.

Since you are from USA
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/world/asia/29turban.html

I am not discussing what USA wants to do. Plus I like the way they think, they do not promote any religious stupidity, like this is mandatory and that is mandatory. This kind of thing exists on in third world countries. I personally do not beleive in any of these.
And judges can make statement like Beard promotes Talibanism?
Did I supported him anywhere?

Why should anyone be bothered by other person's religion? You are against what? Beard or decision? Do you think you know indian constitution better than the bench of Supreme Court Judges?
Did the challenge there decision, all I said I feel that way. Personal feeling.

No-One needs your permission for sporting a beard of keeping a choti. Who gives such permissions? Did you ask someone before getting a Tattoo/ear Piercing? Name one religion that is entirely consistent.
I never intended to say people need my permission. I am just stating my opinion.
Hindu's: On Holi Chennai does not even know and how many north Indians celebrate Pongal?
Muslims: On this thread we've had contrasting vies. Shias or Sunnis
Sikhs: Demonstrated a few are cutting hair.
Christians: Which one??? Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Protestantism...
and these differences emerge with time. Hinduism is the oldest and thus most diversified Sikhism is more recent thus less so.

My point is if it is not mandatory by religion then why people make hue and cry.

By the way on side note, you are one of the poster I admired, looks balanced to me.

 

[Skeptic]

My point is if it is not mandatory by religion then why people make hue and cry.

It should be allowed even if it is not related to religion. There are so many sects / division in every religion, how do you determine which is intact correct. Will the school's discipline be compromised if a few students sport a beard? Will it hamper their performance, but look what they did - they ruined one year. Even if parents are overtly religious (though they were sending their kid to a convent noty a Madarsa), an educational institute also has to foot responsibility.

We all are entitled to freedom till it is not infringing with someone else's freedom. the beard stays on his face.

By the way on side note, you are one of the poster I admired, looks balanced to me.

Thanks. I always thought I was the only one disliked equally from either sides.

 

[muse]

Yes but if the rules can be changed for Sikhs why not for Muslims as well? If Sikhs are allowed headgear and sport a beard, why not the Muslim?

For Sikhs, the headgear (turban) is a religious necdessity - a beard IS NOT for Muslims. The radical Muslims will point ot Hadith this or that, and for them it may well be, but no authority has to bestow legitimacy to these radicals - they want a beard, sure they can keep them, but not on the premises of instituions that do not allow for such expression.

 

[greatsequence]

For Sikhs, the headgear (turban) is a religious necdessity - a beard IS NOT for Muslims. The radical Muslims will point ot Hadith this or that, and for them it may well be, but no authority has to bestow legitimacy to these radicals - they want a beard, sure they can keep them, but not on the premises of instituions that do not allow for such expression.

What do you mean, if there is a hadith by prophet muhammad (s.a.w)explicitly ordering something then you have to simply follow and it becomes mandatory. So in your view point anyone who quotes a hadith becomes a radical. You are trying to be real radical here. Not allowing someone to have beard in any institution makes very little sense.

 

[FireFighter]

What do you mean, if there is a hadith by prophet muhammad (s.a.w)explicitly ordering something then you have to simply follow and it becomes mandatory. So in your view point anyone who quotes a hadith becomes a radical. You are trying to be real radical here. Not allowing someone to have beard in any institution makes very little sense.

I think he measures radicalism by the length of ones beard hair.


What a radical way of measuring radicalism that I think would make the person a radical on his own.

I guess we have too many radicals here.

 

[muse]

What do you mean, if there is a hadith by prophet muhammad (s.a.w)explicitly ordering something then you have to simply follow and it becomes mandatory.

Rubbish! - there is however; a conceptr known as "taghleed" which mean emmulation - the original idea was to emmulate the quality of kindness, forgiveness, patience and love of God, that the beloved prophet exhibited - this idea became corrupted to mean that if one were to emmulate the physical characteristic sof the prophet, such as a beard, or wearing his equivalent of pants above the ankles, one was emmulating the prophet, an obviously idiot notion.

Now, the President and Premier of Pakistan do not have beards, are they therefore "not Muslim" or unislamic"???

 

[FireFighter]

Rubbish! - there is however; a conceptr known as "taghleed" which mean emmulation - the original idea was to emmulate the quality of kindness, forgiveness, patience and love of God, that the beloved prophet exhibited - this idea became corrupted to mean that if one were to emmulate the physical characteristic sof the prophet, such as a beard, or wearing his equivalent of pants above the ankles, one was emmulating the prophet, an obviously idiot notion.

Firstly, the arabic word "taqleed" simply means "..to follow". It doesn't mean emulation. Human beings in all spheres of life do taqleed of their seniors. In fact you also do taqleed of people who don't believe in the concept of taqleed. So in essence that makes you one a follower of taqleed. right?

Secondly, you' can call the hadith rubbish or idiot notion or anything you like but that is just your opinion. And your opinion doesn't matter. In fact it is fickle, just as mine when it comes to religious learnings and teachings. Because opinions can neither change the Quran or Hadith or 14 hundred years of Islamic literature and history. therefore, it doesn;t matter what you say, the beard remains an obligation on the muslim in Islamic law since the time of the Prophet SAW.

Now, the President and Premier of Pakistan do not have beards, are they therefore "not Muslim" or unislamic"???

Once again, the length of ones beard doesn't make one muslim - if that was the case then millons of christians, jews, and hindus would be muslim. It's rather the beliefs of muslims.

 

[muse]

Firefighter


You say Hadith cannot be changed -- but Wahabi only hoild to 40 correct hadith? Are they also not Muslim??

And the Brother Turkye also work on a project to rid Islam of Hadith which have no merit - are they also not Muslim??

I see that you do not seem to have the courage of your convictions - You said hadith were a command to follow (an obviously idiot notion) and I asked you whether that meant the President and Premier of Pakistan who do not have beards were not Muslims for not following the hadith you had in mind

I hope in your next rsponse you will demonstrate the courage of your convictions

 

[Beskar]

Firefighter, No need to get personal with Skeptic. Lets stick to the topic.

Skeptic,

Just report the post, don't reply to it. Thanks!

 

[FireFighter]

Firefighter


You say Hadith cannot be changed -- but Wahabi only hoild to 40 correct hadith? Are they also not Muslim??


And the Brother Turkye also work on a project to rid Islam of Hadith which have no merit - are they also not Muslim??

The noble Quran and Hadith are the two primary sources of legislation in Islamic Jurisprudence and no authentic academic in the world would deny that weather if they studied at Oxford or Al-Azher or Al-Medina or Tehran. Some of these institutions date back to the earlier days of Islam and have hundreds of years of research and hundreds of thousands of publications printed. Muslims belonging to both the Shia and Sunni traditions do not reject hadiths.

I find it rather strange that a person coming after 1400 years claiming that Hadiths are madeup and undermines the importance of beard in Islamic law thereby rejecting all the scholarly works and research done on the Quran and aHadiths.

I'm not sure who Brother Turkye is so I cannot comment on him, sir.

I see that you do not seem to have the courage of your convictions - You said hadith were a command to follow (an obviously idiot notion) and I asked you whether that meant the President and Premier of Pakistan who do not have beards were not Muslims for not following the hadith you had in mind

I hope in your next rsponse you will demonstrate the courage of your convictions

I never said hadith is a command to follow, sir. A hadith simply refers to saying of the Prophet SAW, and that saying could range from being a commandment for all muslims to follow or a prohibition or a mere preference.

In Islamic law its rather sinful to shave the beard and one doesn't become a non-muslim for shaving his beard. I provided a link to prove my point from the Sunni perspective, I can provide links proving my point from Shia or Ahl-e-Hadith traditions agreeing on the importance of beard in Islam.

Firefighter, No need to get personal with Skeptic. Lets stick to the topic.

Skeptic,

Just report the post, don't reply to it. Thanks!

Thanks for the reminder, my friend.

I think you missed the fact that he got personal with me first? perhaps you should consider reading his constant references to the monkey joke.