Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[deckingraj]

This is my last post on this particular subject since you are not getting it even after repeated attempts

So as our link did that. Our link also refuted Indian propaganda that PAF acquired F-104 from Jordan based on the conflicting Indian versions.

The link that windjammer posted in contrast to Indian claims said "it is unclear if F-104 was given to PAF by Jordan"...which means he could not provide a credible source to refute Indian claims...However the link(neutral) that i posted clearly said that F-104 were given to PAF....Do you see the difference??? I have a source which is neutral and is supporting Indian claims about F-104...You have a source which is neither refuting my claim nor is supporting your claim...Do you see the difference???

Moreover look at Growler post above...even he is saying that you did get F-104...Now if you have respect leave this particular topic in our debate right here...

But you refuted it without any sane reason claiming that it is unclear which it is not. So I am using your own logic to disapprove your link. Since they are uncertain about the kills of F-104 how can they make comments about PAF so called significant losses against IAF of F-104. And because of this contradiction and ambiguity we can say your link is unauthentic and unreliable.

...They are unclear about the exact numbers of losses...All they know is there were significant losses as admitted by Pak(according to them) and possible reason that f-104 were not used after 71(they were retired)...the link i give is US source who keeps a record of how many f-104 were built and operated by whom and how they performed against russian counterparts and it is not their job to find out exact kills...All they are interested in knowing is how their fighter performed against their then arch rivals...

You also didn't answer to 1965 war posts by Pakistani members and jumped to 1971 war.

I did not answer??? Man what is wrong with you?? I started posting in this thread way before you...Since we started on 1971 i wanted to stick to it...How can you conclude anything if you just keep posting from 1965 to 1971 ...what will we achieve??? Keep you 1965 findings with you...and for now concentrate on 1971...Once we are done with 1971 we will talk about 1965...Did i say anything different then the original reply i gave??? So now explain how did i jumped to 1971??? Are you just posting for the sake of it ???

 

[Cent4]

well I have been reading comments from both sides and instead of studying for exam I was searching for the truth regarding both 65-71 wars.
few things i would like to disclose which I came across
1) PAF did not lose a single Mirage-III in 71 war
2) PAF had air superiority in 1965 war.


jordon or iran did not support pakistan in 1971 because they wanted to they did supports us because they were forced to. I am posting some links to prove that. these sources are from the notes of the then PRESIDENT of USA President Richard Nixon.

Details of U.S. support for military assistance to Pakistan from China, the Middle East, and even from the United States itself. Henry Kissinger's otherwise thorough account of the India-Pakistan crisis of 1971 in his memoir White House Years, omits the role the United States played in Pakistan's procurement of American fighter planes, perhaps because of the apparent illegality of shipping American military supplies to either India or Pakistan after the announced cutoff.(7) Of particular importance in this selection of documents is a series of transcripts of telephone conversations from December 4 and 16, 1971(Document 28) in which Kissinger and Nixon discuss, among other things, third-party transfers of fighter planes to Pakistan. Also of note is a cable from the Embassy in Iran dated December 29, 1971 (Document 44) which suggests that F-5 fighter aircraft, originally slated for Libya but which were being held in California, were flown to Pakistan via Iran. [23, 26, 28, 29, 33-45]


Document 28
White House, Telephone Conversations (Telcon), Dated December 4 and December 16, 1971, 11 pp. Includes Cover Sheet Dated January 19, 1972
Source: NPMP, NSC Files, Country Files: Middle East, Box 643.

These telcons show Nixon and Kissinger's knowledge of third party transfers of military supplies to Pakistan. Haig summarizes the Telcons to Kissinger by writing that the telcons, "confirm the President's knowledge of, approval for and, if you will, directive to provide aircraft to Iran and Jordan," in exchange for providing aircraft to Pakistan. The telcons also show that Kissinger and Nixon, following the advice of Barbara Walters, decide to put out a White House version of the facts involved with the South Asian crisis through John Scali. Nixon express his desire to, "get some PR out on the- - put the blame on India. It will also take some blame off us."

Document 44
United States Embassy (Tehran), Cable, F-5 Aircraft to Pakistan, Secret, December 29, 1971, 3 pp. Includes DOD cable.
Source: NPMP, NSC Files, Indo-Pak War, Box 575

Embassy Iran reports that three F-5A Fighter aircraft, reportedly from the United States, had been flown to Pakistan to assist in the war efforts against India. A Northrop official matches the aircraft to a group of planes originally slated for sale to Libya, but which were then diverted to USG control in California. This information suggests that not only did Washington look the other way when Jordan and Iran supplied U.S. planes to Pakistan, but that despite the embargo placed on Pakistan, it directly supplied Pakistan with fighter planes.

but after saying all this that does not prove any thing at all.
PAF only lost 3 f-104 according to indian and some international sources.
PAF also destroyed 11 f-86 and 2 T-33 Trainers itself.
according to indian sources.

 

[American Eagle]

QUESTION: Is there any official record information of a lone Indian Air Force,pehaps an IAF Canberra (at high altitude) flown over Karachi Harbor circa April, 1965, after the Spring of 1965 skirmishes in the Rann of Kutch between the Pakistani and Indian Armies? I am a retired USAF Colonel (06) who served in then West Pakistan as a USAF 02 at the then US Embassy in Karachi as Liaison Officer for our US base, the 6937th Communications Group in Badabur, outside Peshawar.

Thanks for anyone's knowledgeable reply.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

there is nothing called assumption in a war.....how can you tell all those you mentioned above died that day??? moreover tell something.....do library of congress is a credible link or not.............
Author James stain writes:"Gen. R.Ruth was told by a senior if you are ready to assume flicker is not right fully....what is the surety that he is even 10% right "<declassified 1997:note no. 951(c)para 144 ...will provide you the scanned pages>....

Dude i have no idea what you are trying to say.

well any one----areesh,creeder,growler or windj...tell me did we had mig-23,19 in 1965/71????????????????

Indian myth. No pak officials every said something like this. I bet you probably picked this up from your uncle or somebody from india.
Btw It was Indian sources which was claiming PAF had Mig-17s or Mig-15 in 65 war. I will post the link.

But try not using so much of ..................... and ................. ?????????? and ///////////////// --------- ... its so freaking annoying.

 

[Windjammer]

Are you talking to me??? At-least quote my message so that there is no confusion....I am sure you know that when we debate we need to go step by step...As of now i have posted about 3 post rebuking your claims about F-104 saga...Lets get a consensus on those and move forward....As far as pictures and other things are concerned what does that prove??? If you are really interested then counter my previous posts where i have questioned step by step claims of Author viz-a-viz Pakistan's POV.....

A few pictures for you...

The 1965 India Pakistan Air War
The Bangladesh War
The First Supersonics
The Western Sector
The 1965 Conflict
The Sabre Slayers of 1965
The Indo Pakistan Conflict

The thing is by the time you type and post a content, the thread has moved on to the next page, we know of two F-104s lost in Air combat, one when apparently there seems to be a firing malfunction involving Wing Commander Middlecoate's aircraft while another was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, we haven't seen any evidence relating to camouflaged Jordanian aircraft and not a single proof on the claims made on the Mirages. As for your pictorial evidence, well the Indian Gun Cameras only seem to capture the obsolete Sabres in their sights, one assumes images of Jordanian Starfighters or top of the line Mirages would have proved more to the mark. PAF claimed three MIG-21s shot down in air combat, and it has released gun camera images to back these claims.

 

[deckingraj]

The thing is by the time you type and post a content, the thread has moved on to the next page, we know of two F-104s lost in Air combat, one when apparently there seems to be a firing malfunction involving Wing Commander Middlecoate's aircraft while another was shot down by anti-aircraft fire, we haven't seen any evidence relating to camouflaged Jordanian aircraft and not a single proof on the claims made on the Mirages. As for your pictorial evidence, well the Indian Gun Cameras only seem to capture the obsolete Sabres in their sights, one assumes images of Jordanian Starfighters or top of the line Mirages would have proved more to the mark. PAF claimed three MIG-21s shot down in air combat, and it has released gun camera images to back these claims.

Are we getting selective here?? Let me ask you straight do you believe Jordan gave you F-104's in 1971 war or not??..if not then i have quoted couple of independent sources claiming the same...so please refute them...If I have not given you pictures that does not mean facts will change...b/w let me know what specific pictures are you looking for and i will see if i can provide you same??? Since I did not know what specific pic you were asking from me so posted a few...

 

[honour]

Dude i have no idea what you are trying to say.


Indian myth. No pak officials every said something like this. I bet you probably picked this up from your uncle or somebody from india.
Btw It was Indian sources which was claiming PAF had Mig-17s or Mig-15 in 65 war. I will post the link.

But try not using so much of ..................... and ................. ?????????? and ///////////////// --------- ... its so freaking annoying.

ooooopsss like your claim that it is an indian myth proves to be wrong,.........
believe me i have got a link for that...so try being genuine and accept that.......
well let u have the link..Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

ooopsss again proved wrong.......

 

[Srinivas]

Buddy is this a scanned copy of news article or a book about PAF?

 

[Windjammer]

Buddy is this a scanned copy of news article or a book about PAF?

No cigar, original articles from 1966, soon after the war, no PS, solid gun camera film images as part of the evidence.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

As you yourself said that it is not certain so Indian claims cannot be simply debuked because there is a possibility that they were used and their performance against Mig-21 was not good as well...

By the way there is another link that say's the opposite

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)

Nothing but Indian propaganda. According to SIPRI arms transfer data base PAF loaned 10 Jordanian F-104s and returned all of the 10 in 1972. Their is no evidence that Jordanian F-104s were shot down in 71 war other then Indian claims.

PAF acquired 12 F-104 in 1962 and 2 more were acquired in mid 60s.
Here is a list of 6 PAF F-104s that survived both wars.







And here is the list of F-104s that were lost due to accidents.

56-802
Lost on 09-11-1963 when the aircraft went into spin. F/O Asghar Shah ejected

56-803
Lost on 03-09-1964 during a low pull-out. F/L Tariq Majeed died in the accident

56-804
Lost on 05-12-1971 due to AAA. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected

56-805
Lost on 10-07-1968 due to fire while on ground. Pilot S/L Asif Iqbal survived

56-807
Lost on 15-04-1968 due to an inflight fire. F/L G U Abasi died in the accident

56-868
Lost on 17-09-1965 due to pilot getting disoriented. F/L G U Abbasi survived the accident

56-877
Lost on 07-09-1965 after a mid-air collision with IAF Mystere. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected

56-773
Lost in air combat on 12-12-1971. Pilot W/C M L Middlecoat died after the ejection

LINK


Its always easy to debunk Indian claims. IAF has claimed accidents as their own kills which is quite cheap.

 

[sidewinder]

The Indian MOD have always denied M.M. Alam's claim, but when a Western Aviation Historian provided them with back up proof with the names of IAF Hunter pilots shot down by M.M. Alam, the Indian MOD decided to remain quite. However,

Three were Sqn Ldrs.--- O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat, among whom only the first mentioned survived. Also killed in the engagement were Flt Lt B. Guha and Flg Off J.S. Brar.

utter nonsense.first of all the pilots you mentioned here O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat.A.B.DEVEYYA was the guy who was involved in raid over sargodha.
Sqn Ldr AB Devayya, MVC of 1 JTW shot down a Pakistani Starfighter over Sargodha airfield on 7 Sep 65 during the 1965 conflict. During the engagement his Mystere aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire. Sqn Ldr Devayya lost his life in the crash. He was awarded Maha Vir Chakra posthumously.as far as i know M.M.alam was flying F-86 sabres.do not put random names dude your making fun of yourself,i know your jealous but that doesn't mean you can write what ever you want.
what happened in the 1965 and 1971.if you think you had air superiority than why couldn't you defeat our ground forces.what happened in longewala?where was your air force when our hunters were having shooting practice.you talk about aerial warfare first go and learn more kid.and about MIG-21 i will give you a lesson next time.go and learn more.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

ooooopsss like your claim that it is an indian myth proves to be wrong,.........
believe me i have got a link for that...so try being genuine and accept that.......
well let u have the link..Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

ooopsss again proved wrong.......

This is most likely to be typo error. Mig-23 were not even introduced in 1965 by soviets themself.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

utter nonsense.first of all the pilots you mentioned here O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat.A.B.DEVEYYA was the guy who was involved in raid over sargodha.
Sqn Ldr AB Devayya, MVC of 1 JTW shot down a Pakistani Starfighter over Sargodha airfield on 7 Sep 65 during the 1965 conflict. During the engagement his Mystere aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire. Sqn Ldr Devayya lost his life in the crash. He was awarded Maha Vir Chakra posthumously.

wrong.

56-877
Lost on 07-09-1965 after a mid-air collision with IAF Mystere. F/L Amjad Hussein ejected.

 

[Frankenstein]

utter nonsense.first of all the pilots you mentioned here O.N. Kacher, A.B. Deveyya, and S.B. Bhagwat.A.B.DEVEYYA was the guy who was involved in raid over sargodha.
Sqn Ldr AB Devayya, MVC of 1 JTW shot down a Pakistani Starfighter over Sargodha airfield on 7 Sep 65 during the 1965 conflict. During the engagement his Mystere aircraft was hit by enemy ground fire. Sqn Ldr Devayya lost his life in the crash. He was awarded Maha Vir Chakra posthumously.as far as i know M.M.alam was flying F-86 sabres.do not put random names dude your making fun of yourself,i know your jealous but that doesn't mean you can write what ever you want.
what happened in the 1965 and 1971.if you think you had air superiority than why couldn't you defeat our ground forces.what happened in longewala?where was your air force when our hunters were having shooting practice.you talk about aerial warfare first go and learn more kid.and about MIG-21 i will give you a lesson next time.go and learn more.

Now you are denying the fact that M.M Alam hunted down 5 IAF pilots, how absurd

 

[honour]

Dude i have no idea what you are trying to say.

I am trying to say that in the earlier pages of the thread..most of the Pakistani members were trying to glorify things on the basis of John Fricker...but i just quoted a segment of library of congress notes on him which seriously counter his credibility........

More over It is the same Fricker who was denied entry in United States of America in 1995<source:the time:1995 issue:racism uproars> due to his racist comment on an Indian member in the Bill Clinton government.He was forced to provide an unconditional apology to the Indian lady.so now you will say you need source...don't worry i will give you that.............

"Clinton was also involved in controversies involving racism.He was criticized by opponent for not pursuing the arrest of famous controversial military writer John Fricker when he published a book on military aspects of the united states in which he called an Indian origin lady with racist terms.The lady,Sugandita Mave was junior military secretary in the Clinton government.Fricker was denied permission to enter United States until he apologized and took back his remarks from the book."

You can judge the hate in the mind of Fricker for India...so we cant trust him.....

also the air enthusiast magazine quotes only your general none from the Indian side...which makes us to believe that its sources was your military.....