Defending Militancy: Why they kill civilians, attack the state

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

I see two sides here now. Theirs and yours.

Your statement appears to carry the presupposition that their calls and contentions will sound more logical/lucrative/religious than yours.

But according to your own recent posts, their cause is neither more logical, nor lucrative, not even religious in nature. So shouldn't it be the other way round, and the educated ones in here may find it easier to convince the extremists of their own ways?

After all it is an internet forum and the sole medium is English. Every single member is well educated, thus I suppose the majority is held by those who can clearly see and derive the degree of religiosity of the TTP and kinds.

Muse is short of arguments, he want to do same like ttp lol

 

[President Camacho]

Muse is short of arguments, he want to do same like ttp lol

I feel there may be many arguments, really complex ones too. But we won't know unless we discuss and deliberate over them.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

agree with u 100%, and truly it is not simple situation and can't be just looked upon inside pakistan only there r other factors r involved and talking is the only way to make these two extemes calm down

TARIQ

 

[Mughal1]

 

[muse]

I see two sides here now. Theirs and yours.

Your statement appears to carry the presupposition that their calls and contentions will sound more logical/lucrative/religious than yours.

But according to your own recent posts, their cause is neither more logical, nor lucrative, not even religious in nature. So shouldn't it be the other way round, and the educated ones in here may find it easier to convince the extremists of their own ways?

After all it is an internet forum and the sole medium is English. Every single member is well educated, thus I suppose the majority is held by those who can clearly see and derive the degree of religiosity of the TTP and kinds.

Excellent - before I can respond to your concerns - allow me to point out that there are not two sides - because we have not had any argument negating my position nor any argument supporting the any position in opposition to the one I have offered - and of course one liners are not the substance of reasoned argument, I am sure you will agree.

You are concerned that my argument is predicated on the contention that the radical message is lucrative (lets leave logic out of it, because the radical message does not operate on that basis).

But you have not been able to capture the entirety of the argument I offer - "Rights" or "Freedoms" or "Liberties", are not absolutes, they are predicated on the exercise of responsibilities. Pakistan are at war with militants. And in war, the use of any communication in the support of the enemy, is generally, and with good reason, not only restricted, but not allowed.

The reason for restricting and for not allowing the communication of the enemy, is that the enemy uses such communication for subversion, for the creating for political space and for sparking support for the enemy. Subversion is a very real threat, and no act of subversion is more powerful than creating support for the message of the enemy.

Let me you an analogy - in your country, does your government allow communication from proscribed entities, for instance such a s SIMI or LeT? Evn in the so called "free world" are not communications from proscribed organization heavily edited and censored??

And you also have noted that some amongst us, seeking to shift criticism away from organizations they may be associated with, suggest that it is to the government we should look at for corrective actions which we seek from the organizations they support?? And does the forum not also have a govt in the form of admin and mods? and do these not have the same responsibilities?? And if they fail or abdicate their responsibilities, are they not in a similar position??

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

Assalam alaikum

bla bla bla , shutting the voice of different pov due to lack of arguments. mods plz help me i m loosing my patient and trying to write lengty texts and playing, just shut the others

TARIQ

 

[muse]

Tariq

Is that the education your parents paid for in the US? really shameful, I'm very disappointed that you cannot even put together two paragraphs of a reasoned argument to defend your right to subvert.

 

[TARIQ BN ZIYAAD]

Tariq

Is that the education your parents paid for in the US? really shameful, I'm very disappointed that you cannot even put together two paragraphs of a reasoned argument to defend your right to subvert.

loooooooool

TARIQ

 

[muse]

I'm devasted - those poor parents and their money of course - imagine, giving up on Pakistan, and then finding no acceptance in arabia and still persevering in the hope that "beta naam roshan karega" and beta can't even put together two paragraphs to defend his right to subvert - ts, tsk, tsk - very sad.

No, seriously, it's a challenge - put together two paragraphs (cut n paste not allowed - original work appreciated) defend the right to present the militant point of view

 

[President Camacho]

Tariq - I am sure you will agree that the same reasoning that you are proferring in favor of letting others (no matter how outlandish/unreasonable they sound) have their say, also applies on Muse. Don't you think it would be better to abstain from committing the same sin that we stand against? Please, let us not ridicule anyone, it will do nothing but dilute our minds.


Muse - I understand very well why you say what you say. I hope while reading this, you keep in mind that I am not a Pakistani, so of course, I do not 'feel' the situation and may underestimate its gravity.

With that taken care of, I want to tell you that yes, I fully agree with you there. Serious times call for serious measures, and desperate times call for even drastic measures. To protect the nation, and to keep the culture at balanced level, a degree of censorship on anything that is communicated publicly is practiced everywhere - even in the most free of all the societies. And ironically, the degree censorship would be at its highest level in a society ruled and dictated by, say - the Taliban.

Now we (this group, the forum and those who oppose public display of sympathy toward the extremists) do not want to end up becoming the Talibans. But at the same time, we also cannot afford to leave a weak front that may serve as a recruiting window to the extremists. So ultimately we will have to deliberate on this, and reach a standard level of a balance between what shall be censored, and what shall be allowed.

Unfortunately, recognition of such statements (to help appoint the degree of censorship) would be very subjective, and extremely demanding because it will be very prone to turn into a debate on religion. With that point, my idea would be to take a cue from the government (as you helped with the simile between the government and the moderating team here). Religion on the backseat, onslaught on the front. Once the menace has disappeared, the religion can be very well protected and respected with all that it deserves.

There is only one problem with this contention, very related to the topic of this thread - Whose Islam is right?

Makes me wonder whether it is the democracy that is dictating its own version of Islam - The say of many, over the say of the few. Then again, what do I know about Islam... So not making any judgements here.

 

[muse]

my idea would be to take a cue from the government (as you helped with the simile between the government and the moderating team here). Religion on the backseat, onslaught on the front. Once the menace has disappeared, the religion can be very well protected and respected with all that it deserves.

There is only one problem with this contention, very related to the topic of this thread - Whose Islam is right?

Makes me wonder whether it is the democracy that is dictating its own version of Islam - The say of many, over the say of the few. Then again, what do I know about Islam... So not making any judgements here.

Presidente Camacho

Here you are making a methodological error - You are imagining that the militants and the rest of us, will, somehow stumble on some "truth" about which islam is right -- This is a methodological error - Recall, that this is about our interpretation of Islam, what else can it be? And recall that interpretation or understanding of religion is as multifold as there are adherents, reasonable people would agree, however, the militants are dogmatic, their way or the highway.

So, we are in a position where if we do not get rid of them, we will be committing suicide, after all they assure us "our way or death"

So which version is "correct"? The one which can best inspire people, which can best move them to FAITH in God --

 

[khanz4996]

FIRST OF ALL THERE IS NO MILITANCY IN ISLAM.SECONDLY ISLAM GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST AGRESSION,THIRDLY ALLAH SAYS IN QURAN THAT ALLAH DONT LIKE AGRESSORS.if any one got some brain then they will understand the gravity of the situtation muslims are going through.we dont NEED THIS SORT OF TOPIC WHOSE ISLAM IS RIGHT which divides us.we need a topic like ISLAM IS ALWAYS RIGHT which can unite us.Today the enemies divided us into sunni shia baralvi ahlul sunnah ahlull quran pathan punjabi sindhi baloch kashmiri white black lower class middle class elite class moderates militants.WE SHOULD GATHER AROUND ONE THING THATS WE ARE ONLY MUSLIMS AND ALLAH GOT THE RIGHT TO JUDGE THAT WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG NOT US THE HUMANS

 

[muse]

we dont NEED THIS SORT OF TOPIC WHOSE ISLAM IS RIGHT which divides us.we need a topic like ISLAM IS ALWAYS RIGHT which can unite us.Today the enemies divided us into sunni shia baralvi ahlul sunnah ahlull quran pathan punjabi sindhi baloch kashmiri white black lower class middle class elite class moderates militants.WE SHOULD GATHER AROUND ONE THING THATS WE ARE ONLY MUSLIMS AND ALLAH GOT THE RIGHT TO JUDGE THAT WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG NOT US THE HUMANS

The voice of Arabia and the Militants -- we need not be consumed by "substance" - we just need to fall in line -- And since there are no militants, no need to condemn them -- and really the so called militants are "Muslims" - let God decide, after the so called militants dispatch you to him.

 

[Rafi]

I strongly believe we have to go back to the roots of Islam in our region - it was the Sufi's who converted the vast majority of the people - we should follow their example, people then would only learn the love that is the essence of Islam.

 

[khanz4996]

The voice of Arabia and the Militants -- we need not be consumed by "substance" - we just need to fall in line -- And since there are no militants, no need to condemn them -- and really the so called militants are "Muslims" - let God decide, after the so called militants dispatch you to him.

YES I BELIEVE IN DESTINY ITS A PART OF MY EMAAN MY FAITH IF THEY DISPATCH ME LET IT BE AFTER ALL GOD got the power to judge someone not you.if i die in a terrorist attack (remember terrorist not militant attack because people who kills innocents are called terroists not militants) it would be my destiny and what else do u need if die innocent and free of sin or you will live forever????a innocent when dies is called a martyr in islam if but u knew.YOU should grow up and look fear God because you live in a land which will soon massacre you on the name of racism white and black the same what happened in norway.WHY THAT NORWAY ATTACKS ARE NOT CALLED TERRORIST ATTACKS?WHY THEY CALL IT RACIST OR RIGHT WING ATTACKER NOT A TERRORIST?BECAUSE THE MEANING OF A TERRORIST IS THAT YOU DO TERRORISM AND YOU ARE MUSLIM.IF U DO TERRORISM AND YOU ARE NOT MUSLIM U ARE NOT CALLED TERRORIST.ITS COMPULASRY THAT YOU SHOULD BE A MUSLIM TO BE A TERRORIST.