I hate making threads, they take time and effort but I felt compelled to make this one so that fellow Pakistani's don't fall prey to weak propaganda attempts and can hit back hard with facts when questioned. Secondly, to the Indian members, I encourage to you to argue on this, not with rhetoric, not with fallacy, but with facts and logical arguments.
Before, we dissect each and every part of it. I will talk about 5th Generation Warfare, for those interested, the proofs and facts to bust this myth for once and for all are down below.
5th Generation Warfare
I want us to realize how important ISPR's role has been, when Indian jets first intruded, we were all getting rallied up that ISPR should be 'responding rather than tweeting', but in what came after, I saw on r/India subreddit, people were, popularly, left in shock at the amount of missing information and lack of comments from Indian officials, and that how over exaggerating the media was, they praised ISPR.
I want you to realize, Indians with their made-in-Bollywood surgical strikes are heavily relying on media, they are engaging in 5th generation warfare. ISPR tweets and information bursts were exactly countering this, and we should take pride that our armed forces have a media wing to keep us updated with important stuff. According to people on r/India, NDTV was taken off air during transmission for showing even the slightest doubt and objectivity, this is confirmed on more than one service provider, specially TATA, they have taken NDTV out of the packages during transmission and have put the channel in 'pay-to-see' category, they are clamping down on media, and they're putting media in full swing mode to exaggerate, build lies and do headless propaganda.
Busting the Myth once and for all!
I would like to take head on the most convincing 'proof' they had uploaded till yet. According to this tweet, it is 'confirmed' that the jet was a Pakistani F16.
I was very gullible about it, and I decided to take look at it all. I don't know how to upload pictures here, what can I say... I am very bad, so I attached few below, and for rest I ask you to visit the website yourself as I instruct here and take a look yourself, to see... is to believe!
This was the website in question.
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16
Now, first thing first. The aircraft number mentioned there is 78-0269, not 80269. And you can check the picture again and again, it is clearly been written with a marker, 80269. The picture is in the above tweet. Aircraft numbers do not change, local serial numbers do, so I am assuming that Aircraft numbers are firmly inscribed from the time of manufacture rather than scrabbled with a marker. So, the aircraft number doesn't match.
I will get to the serial numbers in a moment. Now lets see the images on this link below.
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/airframe-profile/269/
Open up any picture, you will find that the jet is a twin seater. This does not go hand-in-hand with the current Indian narrative; that we initially claimed we had two pilots in custody, one Abhi on footage, and one being treated, and that we then resorted to the claim of only one as we realized that the other was our own. The jet is a twin seater, a single pilot cannot fly a twin seater. So for them to stick to the above narrative is for them to claim that a single pilot was flying a twin seater. You can clearly tell from images, it is a twin seater.
Next up, the range of database, and the very obvious. This database also keeps in account sales, destruction, and so on. It has abbreviations to mark this. Below are listed the abbreviations.
[act] Active
[i/a] Instructional Airframe
[sto] Stored (e.g. at AMARG)
[cld] Cancelled Order
[msh] Involved in Mishap
[w/o] Write-off
[con] Converted
[o/o] On Order
[des] Destroyed (drone)
[pre] Preserved (museum, gateguard)
T/V LM Aero Type/Version (Construction) number
[emb] Embargoed
[scr] Scrapped
Photo Available
The website, http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16, very clearly states it as [act] with RJAF 1st Squadron, Royal Jordanian Air Force Squadron no. 1, meaning it states that the jet is still with and active with the Jordanian Air Force since 2009. You can also see that it captures sales and transfers, as it did for this aircraft, the sale of it between Netherlends and Jordan, but there is none between Jordan and Pakistan, striking that claim down as well.
Now, coming onto the S/N and such. I have attached a picture below, named 1. It shows the pattern in S/N and Aircraft numbers. For the link, go to http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16.
The S/N varies throughout, the Aircraft numbers are constant though and remain to 6 digits with a hash. It can very easily be noted that the S/N of the jet was J-269 WITH THE NETHERLANDS AIR FORCE, AND THEN WAS CHANGED TO 131 UNDER THE JORDANIAN AIR FORCE.
The serial doesn't match, and it doesn't make sense either. It was 'J-269' under Netherlands, and under Jordan it was '131', so according to Indian narrative after 'sale to Pakistan', it was changed to '80269'?
Now here's the final blow. You already saw that the S/N and Aircraft Number don't match with any F-16. Lets try another database.
Head to this link.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-database
First things first, under Asian/Pacific Air Forces, set country to Pakistan. Now try any of the following, so far linked somehow, serial numbers and aircraft number (code) in their respective boxes, you wont find a single positive back.
Aircraft Number: 80269 (claimed in Indian narrative)
Serial Number: 80269 (claimed in Indian narrative)
Aircraft Number: 78-0269 (actual aircraft number of accused F-16 under RJAF)
Serial Number: J-269 (S/N of the accused F-16 under Netherlands Air Force)
Serial Number: 131 (S/N of the accused F-16 under Jordanian Air Force)
Now, go back to the above link.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-database
And under Middle East and Africa, set country to Jordan. Now try the following code.
Serial Number: 131 (active S/N of the accused F-16 under Jordanian Air Force, as was in http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16 )
You will notice immediately, you get a positive.
Here are the details.
Now returning to the point posted in Indian media and propagated that the engine matched with the crash picture. I don't need to say any words for this because fellow members have amazing graphical interpretations just proving it otherwise, and spared me from more effort : )
Again, I don't know how to do it. I am attaching it here, if mods can upload pictures, I would appreciate much.
- Perforations
- F-16 engine
- Comparison of mig to crash
Special thanks to @Shabi1 and @sur
Lastly, stating the obvious.
The pictures used by the Indian media propagating it as were the images released by ISPR of the same plane crash on the same site, some of the debris was slightly spaced as you would expect upon a crash and impact. The main frame of the plane clearly seen, is a MIG. The time stamps on all images are very close to each other, within a time frame of 5 minutes, thus proving the site was the same, and the debris belonged to the same aircraft, the MIG.
I can't find the pictures and also the video uploaded on twitter, honestly just tired from typing, if others can assist me here, would appreciate very much. Thank you!
That is all, again, I encourage, Indians, to come and argument, not with fallacy and rhetoric but with logical reasoning and arguments, and facts.
Thank you for reading.
@waz @Dubious @Areesh @Starlord @balixd @Psychic @Pakistani Aircraft @arbit
Pakistan Zindabad!
Before, we dissect each and every part of it. I will talk about 5th Generation Warfare, for those interested, the proofs and facts to bust this myth for once and for all are down below.
5th Generation Warfare
I want us to realize how important ISPR's role has been, when Indian jets first intruded, we were all getting rallied up that ISPR should be 'responding rather than tweeting', but in what came after, I saw on r/India subreddit, people were, popularly, left in shock at the amount of missing information and lack of comments from Indian officials, and that how over exaggerating the media was, they praised ISPR.
I want you to realize, Indians with their made-in-Bollywood surgical strikes are heavily relying on media, they are engaging in 5th generation warfare. ISPR tweets and information bursts were exactly countering this, and we should take pride that our armed forces have a media wing to keep us updated with important stuff. According to people on r/India, NDTV was taken off air during transmission for showing even the slightest doubt and objectivity, this is confirmed on more than one service provider, specially TATA, they have taken NDTV out of the packages during transmission and have put the channel in 'pay-to-see' category, they are clamping down on media, and they're putting media in full swing mode to exaggerate, build lies and do headless propaganda.
Busting the Myth once and for all!
I would like to take head on the most convincing 'proof' they had uploaded till yet. According to this tweet, it is 'confirmed' that the jet was a Pakistani F16.
I was very gullible about it, and I decided to take look at it all. I don't know how to upload pictures here, what can I say... I am very bad, so I attached few below, and for rest I ask you to visit the website yourself as I instruct here and take a look yourself, to see... is to believe!
This was the website in question.
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16
Now, first thing first. The aircraft number mentioned there is 78-0269, not 80269. And you can check the picture again and again, it is clearly been written with a marker, 80269. The picture is in the above tweet. Aircraft numbers do not change, local serial numbers do, so I am assuming that Aircraft numbers are firmly inscribed from the time of manufacture rather than scrabbled with a marker. So, the aircraft number doesn't match.
I will get to the serial numbers in a moment. Now lets see the images on this link below.
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/airframe-profile/269/
Open up any picture, you will find that the jet is a twin seater. This does not go hand-in-hand with the current Indian narrative; that we initially claimed we had two pilots in custody, one Abhi on footage, and one being treated, and that we then resorted to the claim of only one as we realized that the other was our own. The jet is a twin seater, a single pilot cannot fly a twin seater. So for them to stick to the above narrative is for them to claim that a single pilot was flying a twin seater. You can clearly tell from images, it is a twin seater.
Next up, the range of database, and the very obvious. This database also keeps in account sales, destruction, and so on. It has abbreviations to mark this. Below are listed the abbreviations.
[act] Active
[i/a] Instructional Airframe
[sto] Stored (e.g. at AMARG)
[cld] Cancelled Order
[msh] Involved in Mishap
[w/o] Write-off
[con] Converted
[o/o] On Order
[des] Destroyed (drone)
[pre] Preserved (museum, gateguard)
T/V LM Aero Type/Version (Construction) number
[emb] Embargoed
[scr] Scrapped
The website, http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16, very clearly states it as [act] with RJAF 1st Squadron, Royal Jordanian Air Force Squadron no. 1, meaning it states that the jet is still with and active with the Jordanian Air Force since 2009. You can also see that it captures sales and transfers, as it did for this aircraft, the sale of it between Netherlends and Jordan, but there is none between Jordan and Pakistan, striking that claim down as well.
Now, coming onto the S/N and such. I have attached a picture below, named 1. It shows the pattern in S/N and Aircraft numbers. For the link, go to http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16.
The S/N varies throughout, the Aircraft numbers are constant though and remain to 6 digits with a hash. It can very easily be noted that the S/N of the jet was J-269 WITH THE NETHERLANDS AIR FORCE, AND THEN WAS CHANGED TO 131 UNDER THE JORDANIAN AIR FORCE.
The serial doesn't match, and it doesn't make sense either. It was 'J-269' under Netherlands, and under Jordan it was '131', so according to Indian narrative after 'sale to Pakistan', it was changed to '80269'?
Now here's the final blow. You already saw that the S/N and Aircraft Number don't match with any F-16. Lets try another database.
Head to this link.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-database
First things first, under Asian/Pacific Air Forces, set country to Pakistan. Now try any of the following, so far linked somehow, serial numbers and aircraft number (code) in their respective boxes, you wont find a single positive back.
Aircraft Number: 80269 (claimed in Indian narrative)
Serial Number: 80269 (claimed in Indian narrative)
Aircraft Number: 78-0269 (actual aircraft number of accused F-16 under RJAF)
Serial Number: J-269 (S/N of the accused F-16 under Netherlands Air Force)
Serial Number: 131 (S/N of the accused F-16 under Jordanian Air Force)
Now, go back to the above link.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-database
And under Middle East and Africa, set country to Jordan. Now try the following code.
Serial Number: 131 (active S/N of the accused F-16 under Jordanian Air Force, as was in http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/actype/F-16 )
You will notice immediately, you get a positive.
Here are the details.
- 131 (S/N)
- F-16BM (Type)
- 6E-11/M14-11 (CN)
- 1sq (Unit)
- Active (Status)
- jul09 (First)
- jan15 (Last)
- NLD J-269 (Previous ID)
Now returning to the point posted in Indian media and propagated that the engine matched with the crash picture. I don't need to say any words for this because fellow members have amazing graphical interpretations just proving it otherwise, and spared me from more effort : )
Again, I don't know how to do it. I am attaching it here, if mods can upload pictures, I would appreciate much.
- Perforations
- F-16 engine
- Comparison of mig to crash
Special thanks to @Shabi1 and @sur
Lastly, stating the obvious.
The pictures used by the Indian media propagating it as were the images released by ISPR of the same plane crash on the same site, some of the debris was slightly spaced as you would expect upon a crash and impact. The main frame of the plane clearly seen, is a MIG. The time stamps on all images are very close to each other, within a time frame of 5 minutes, thus proving the site was the same, and the debris belonged to the same aircraft, the MIG.
I can't find the pictures and also the video uploaded on twitter, honestly just tired from typing, if others can assist me here, would appreciate very much. Thank you!
That is all, again, I encourage, Indians, to come and argument, not with fallacy and rhetoric but with logical reasoning and arguments, and facts.
Thank you for reading.
@waz @Dubious @Areesh @Starlord @balixd @Psychic @Pakistani Aircraft @arbit
Pakistan Zindabad!
