De-hyphenating India-Pakistan!!

[SQ8]

There is no solution because it is no longer a situation of old sibling rivalry. This is an issue of hate that is embedded in the newer generation and much much much much more so in India. Simply because unlike Pakistan, the entire Indian population is not connection to Pakistan and hence has no actual reason for the hatred except that it is in national interest to do so.It is ingrained into the egos of the people who spend their daily lives, such hatred is not going away.

This sort of hatred cannot be removed via talks, or de-hyphentation or any of that gobblygook.. this sort of hatred needs war and terrible utter war to resolve that makes WWII look like a minor shootout.
There is no other human proof to the concept that Indians would like friendship or even accepting Pakistanis as humans. I've given up on that perspective.

 

[vsdoc]

The only hyphenation remaining now is that we used to be one people at one time.

Practically speaking, the Indo-Pak type hyphenation from my school and college days is long over.

I have seen a systematic de-enagagement and peripheralizing of Pakistan by successive Indian administrations over the past 15 years now.

Kargil was the peak of our engagement. There has been a marked cooling off since then.

There is no desire for peace with Pakistan anymore at the level of the lay populace. Apathy, indifference, and a desire for escalated payback and disproportionate retribution has taken root.

Especially amongst the 20 and 30 year olds.

For the younger kids, the teens and the under tens, its a detached limbo place of bad stuff they keep hearing about. They never saw Kargil, and all they've seen is 26/11. And for their generation, Pakistan is 26/11.

 

[Levina]

Sorry for the late response. Was busy in some work. But I am all for targeted killings. Some rats need to meet their creator.

Metaphorically speaking I didn't advocate for total anhilation of Kashmir. In fact until 65 the border was just fine but looking at what is happening today. A bullet for bullet is the need of thehour.

I always said. And I had said so. IA is there for a reason. We don't want another buffer zone that favors the bad.

I had objected to the part in your post which compared Kashmir to Palestine. I don't think there are many similarities between the two. Violence in Kashmir is largely against the system, categorising it as religious violence would be wrong. Thr Kashmiri outrage against AFSPA, is understandable but it is not about religion and it's not about their independence.

The only hyphenation remaining now is that we used to be one people at one time.

Practically speaking, the Indo-Pak type hyphenation from my school and college days is long over.

I have seen a systematic de-enagagement and peripheralizing of Pakistan by successive Indian administrations over the past 15 years now.

Kargil was the peak of our engagement. There has been a marked cooling off since then.

There is no desire for peace with Pakistan anymore at the level of the lay populace. Apathy, indifference, and a desire for escalated payback and disproportionate retribution has taken root.

Especially amongst the 20 and 30 year olds.

For the younger kids, the teens and the under tens, its a detached limbo place of bad stuff they keep hearing about. They never saw Kargil, and all they've seen is 26/11. And for their generation, Pakistan is 26/11.

IMO, Pakistan means nothing to ppl living down south or towards the eastern parts of India. The dehyphenation has to come at the policy makers level.
By dehyphenation I do not mean hostility for hostility is a mood and not a policy.
India has often reacted to Pakistan's provocations, which should be avoided in the future.

 

[vsdoc]

IMO, Pakistan means nothing to ppl living down south or towards the eastern parts of India. The dehyphenation has to come at the policy makers level.
By dehyphenation I do not mean hostility for hostility is a mood and not a policy.
India has often reacted to Pakistan's provocations, which should be avoided in the future.

I don't know about the East part so much levina. I grew up there. We have pretty strong views about Pakistan. Both as a nation and a people.

I think it is a fallacy, generated more by the Pakistanis (West Pakistanis to be precise in terms of the original terminology) than anybody else, that they are somehow different to the rest of the Indian nation and have only real ties to the Punjabi populace.

If you see India today, and hypothetically presume a partition at the level of the Vindhyas, then too you would hear the same 70 years hence.

If the NE states never joined the Indian state, and were separated from us for 70 years, you would hear the same. You do hear the same even today, with them as part of the country, do you not?

Fact is, a cleavage happened. On ideological grounds. Now 70 years hence you will hear all sorts of revisionist theories of different civilizations, and races, and languages, and continuous separate existence, untouched by the larger mainland, etc etc etc till the cows come home.

Fact of the matter is that for me, my people are from Iran originally. But my people have been Indian for over a thousand years.

When we came to India, we were given shelter by the Indian people. And we lived for over a thousand years amongst Indian people, as Indians.

For me personally, all Indians are originally Hindus, where over the past thousand odd years some of them (all of whom I consider "my" people) have become Muslim.

They were not the ones who drove us from our ancestral land. Though to be equally brutally fair, many of them did continue to fight alongside foreigners to persecute us EVEN on this land which gave us refuge. Driving us into the hills and forests to save our holy fire, once again, where we lived for near 2-300 years before moving to Mumbai.

Atash parast where we came from. Atash parast where we came to!

The irony of the existential deja vu largely lost on my people, we broke our oath to lay down our arms (given to Hindu king Jadi Rana) and actually formed a militia of Parsi garrisons to fight with and alongside Shivaji's forces. In and through most of the 1600s during his campaigns in the Gujarat.

One of my ancestors actually raised a sum of 20 lakh rupees in those days and led one of the campaigns in the Kutch. Cavalry, and French artillery.

We have currently a family tree recreation thing going on in India for the past 3+ years, and this factoid came to light when I bumped into another namesake of mine on a ride to Mahabaleshwar one Sunday.

So in summary, I do not believe we are ever going to be de-hyphenated at a people level.

But as nation states, its happened some decade and a half ago. Maybe two.

 

[Levina]

So in summary, I do not believe we are ever going to be de-hyphenated at a people level

Doc,is it realistic to assume that a 21year old cares for his grandparent's ancestral property left behind in India/Paksitan???
I am sure you know the answer.
It's for this reason that we must stop assuming that India and Pakistan can't be dehyphenated.

Atash parast where we came from. Atash parast where we came to!

Good one!
I have heard another proverb in Parsi which says...
Az mast ke bar mast chon digri Nast.
It means you're responsible for your actions, if am not wrong...suits Pakistan.

.
But as nation states, its happened some decade and a half ago. Maybe two.

I disagree. Had that been the case Modi would not have opened doors of India for his counterpart in islamabad.

Fact is, a cleavage happened. On ideological grounds. Now 70 years hence you will hear all sorts of revisionist theories of different civilizations, and races, and languages, and continuous separate existence, untouched by the larger mainland, etc etc etc till the cows come home.

Fact of the matter is that for me, my people are from Iran originally. But my people have been Indian for over a thousand years.

When we came to India, we were given shelter by the Indian people. And we lived for over a thousand years amongst Indian people, as Indians.

For me personally, all Indians are originally Hindus, where over the past thousand odd years some of them (all of whom I consider "my" people) have become Muslim.

They were not the ones who drove us from our ancestral land. Though to be equally brutally fair, many of them



The irony of the existential deja vu largely lost on my people, we broke our oath to lay down our arms (given to Hindu king Jadi Rana) and actually formed a militia of Parsi garrisons to fight with and alongside Shivaji's forces. In and through most of the 1600s during his campaigns in the Gujarat.

One of my ancestors actually raised a sum of 20 lakh rupees in those days and led one of the campaigns in the Kutch. We have currently a family tree recreation thing going on in India for the past 3+ years, and this factoid came to light when I bumped into another namesake of mine on a ride to Mahabaleshwar one Sunday

Interesting!!!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I don't know about the East part so much levina. I grew up there. We have pretty strong views about Pakistan. Both as a nation and a people.

I think it is a fallacy, generated more by the Pakistanis (West Pakistanis to be precise in terms of the original terminology) than anybody else, that they are somehow different to the rest of the Indian nation and have only real ties to the Punjabi populace.

If you see India today, and hypothetically presume a partition at the level of the Vindhyas, then too you would hear the same 70 years hence.

If the NE states never joined the Indian state, and were separated from us for 70 years, you would hear the same. You do hear the same even today, with them as part of the country, do you not?

Fact is, a cleavage happened. On ideological grounds. Now 70 years hence you will hear all sorts of revisionist theories of different civilizations, and races, and languages, and continuous separate existence, untouched by the larger mainland, etc etc etc till the cows come home.

Fact of the matter is that for me, my people are from Iran originally. But my people have been Indian for over a thousand years.

When we came to India, we were given shelter by the Indian people. And we lived for over a thousand years amongst Indian people, as Indians.

For me personally, all Indians are originally Hindus, where over the past thousand odd years some of them (all of whom I consider "my" people) have become Muslim.

They were not the ones who drove us from our ancestral land. Though to be equally brutally fair, many of them did continue to fight alongside foreigners to persecute us EVEN on this land which gave us refuge. Driving us into the hills and forests to save our holy fire, once again, where we lived for near 2-300 years before moving to Mumbai.

Atash parast where we came from. Atash parast where we came to!

The irony of the existential deja vu largely lost on my people, we broke our oath to lay down our arms (given to Hindu king Jadi Rana) and actually formed a militia of Parsi garrisons to fight with and alongside Shivaji's forces. In and through most of the 1600s during his campaigns in the Gujarat.

One of my ancestors actually raised a sum of 20 lakh rupees in those days and led one of the campaigns in the Kutch. Cavalry, and French artillery.

We have currently a family tree recreation thing going on in India for the past 3+ years, and this factoid came to light when I bumped into another namesake of mine on a ride to Mahabaleshwar one Sunday.

So in summary, I do not believe we are ever going to be de-hyphenated at a people level.

But as nation states, its happened some decade and a half ago. Maybe two.

@vsdoc; referring to the underlined part, Lt.Col. Adi Tarapore was descended from that lot. I think i have that reference some place. Its in a biography of Adi Tarapore written by Col. C.L. Proudfoot.

 

[vsdoc]

Doc,is it realistic to assume that a 21year old cares for his grandparent's ancestral property left behind in India/Paksitan???
I am sure you know the answer.
It's for this reason that we must stop assuming that India and Pakistan can't be dehyphenated.

It is not my position that India and Pakistan cannot be dehyphenated. They've already been. For some time now.

Its Indians and Pakistanis that cannot. The internet and forums like these are just the start.

I have heard another proverb in Parsi which says...
Az mast ke bar mast chon digri Nast.
It means you're responsible for your actions, if am not wrong...suits Pakistan.

That's Farsi. Not Parsi. Parsi is not a language, its a community of Indian Zoroastrians. Who came to this land in waves over 200 to 300 years, starting around 700 AD. Which speaks Gujurati as its mother tongue. Our Iranian Zoroastrians, who came over quite a bit later (over the past 300 odd years), speak Dari.

I disagree. Had that been the case Modi would not have opened doors of India for his counterpart in islamabad.

I think you are confusing disengagement with de-hyphenation?

De-hyphenation is more about perception. About playing fields. About weight classes.

Its not so much what we do ourselves, but how the world looks at us.

@vsdoc; referring to the underlined part, Lt.Col. Adi Tarapore was descended from that lot. I think i have that reference some place. Its in a biography of Adi Tarapore written by Col. C.L. Proudfoot.

Present Arms!

His bravery will always be remembered. A brave Indian, and a Pune boy. The Hero of the Battle of Phillora. Comes from the bloodline of Gen. Ratanjiba, who led Shivaji's army into war.

Jai Hind.

 

[vsdoc]

@Capt.Popeye @third eye

We are actually very close family friends with his daughter and her kids.

My wife and I had both modelled with his elder granddaughter in our college days (one of the TV campaigns being Coca Cola's re-entry back into India). She's now my lawyer incidentally. Lol

This being the 50th anniversary of that great battle, mam (his daughter) has been invited to New Delhi by our PM.

A true blue hero of India. Fakre Hind the opposing Pakistani soldiers called him after he finally fell, after 6 days of fighting in the most important armored fight of India's history. Cremated on the battlefield, enveloped in the flames engulfing his stricken tank.

We have a Col. Tarapore road in Camp in his honor.

Humbled.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Capt.Popeye @third eye

We are actually very close family friends with his daughter and her kids.

My wife and I had both modelled with his elder granddaughter in our college days (one of the TV campaigns being Coca Cola's re-entry back into India). She's now my lawyer incidentally. Lol

This being the 50th anniversary of that great battle, mam (his daughter) has been invited to New Delhi by our PM.

A true blue hero of India. Fakre Hind the opposing Pakistani soldiers called him after he finally fell, after 6 days of fighting in the most important armored fight of India's history. Cremated on the battlefield, enveloped in the flames engulfing his stricken tank.

We have a Col. Tarapore road in Camp in his honor.

Humbled.

Thanks... I do know about the road..... it passes by the Sardar Dastur School. Even the Pune Main Station has a plaque dedicating the Railway Station Bldg to his memory... Wonder if its still there ?

 

[Levina]

I think you are confusing disengagement with de-hyphenation?

That's exactly what I had in my mind when I was writing this article. I chose de-hyphenation for the title because many on this forum have accused me of hyphenating IVC with India. Lol
The main objective of writing this article was to let ppl know that India would not like to be associated with Pakistan in any which way, if not anything it works against India.

It is not my position that India and Pakistan cannot be dehyphenated. They've already been. For some time now.
Its Indians and Pakistanis that cannot.

Sir, you and me 're on the same page, but I believe that Indians and Pakistanis of the present generation do not have any emotional bonding with their ancestral lands. In which case it is safe to assume that the migrants would not hesitate in cutting off their ties with the countries they've migrated from.

That's Farsi. Not Parsi. Parsi is not a language, its a community of Indian Zoroastrians. Who came to this land in waves over 200 to 300 years, starting around 700 AD. Which speaks Gujurati as its mother tongue. Our Iranian Zoroastrians, who came over quite a bit later (over the past 300 odd years), speak Dari.

Lol
My bad!
I confused parsi with Farsi.

 

[Dash]

I had objected to the part in your post which compared Kashmir to Palestine. I don't think there are many similarities between the two. Violence in Kashmir is largely against the system, categorising it as religious violence would be wrong. Thr Kashmiri outrage against AFSPA, is understandable but it is not about religion and it's not about their independence.

IMO, Pakistan means nothing to ppl living down south or towards the eastern parts of India. The dehyphenation has to come at the policy makers level.
By dehyphenation I do not mean hostility for hostility is a mood and not a policy.
India has often reacted to Pakistan's provocations, which should be avoided in the future.

Violence in Kashmir is not against the system. Violence against system is naxal issue.

Its not law and order issue and pure anti national. Regarding Palestine remark, there ate similarities and hence why for the record AFSPA is not going anytime soon. Not at least for 20 years. You connect the rest of the dots

 

[vsdoc]

That's exactly what I had in my mind when I was writing this article. I chose de-hyphenation for the title because many on this forum have accused me of hyphenating IVC with India. Lol
The main objective of writing this article was to let ppl know that India would not like to be associated with Pakistan in any which way, if not anything it works against India.

The IVC is an interesting syndrome.

The growth of the IVC narrative signifies somewhere the need to look beyond the religious plinth of nationhood as envisaged by the founding father and his two nation theory.

Maybe grown and been fostered in a time where the original narrative is either not enough, or probably facing stormy seas generically universally.

The irony of the revisionist not-India dissociation rationality of course being that most of the IVC bloodlines are currently in the east and south of India.

But lets not let reality come in the way of the forging of a national identity different and exclusive of the womb it was birthed and separated from.

We've had some epic IVC threads here in the past. @Bang Galore @Joe Shearer had quite copious contributions on the same.

 

[Levina]

Violence in Kashmir is not against the system. Violence against system is naxal issue.

Its not law and order issue and pure anti national. Regarding Palestine remark, there ate similarities and hence why for the record AFSPA is not going anytime soon. Not at least for 20 years. You connect the rest of the dots

No Dashyy
I disagree.
The situation in Palestine is not akin to Kashmir, though there're some parallels when you look at it superficially.
My reasons are :
1) Kashmir readily merged with India. In 1947 when Paksitan attacked Kashmir, Kashmiris welcomed Indian army with open hands, while ppl living in Palestine were forced to live under Israeli govt.
2) Kashmir is an integral part of India like any other Indian state. Leaders are democratically elected and we do not treat Kashmiris as refugees,like the Palestinians who suffer at the hands of Israel.
3) India is a secular country, India has never claimed religious exclusivism for it's Hindu citizens unlike Israel which was formed for Jews.
4) The constitution of India prevents non-Kashmiris from buying up land in the state of J&K while Israel has constructed exclusive colonies in West Bank and Gaza.
I do not see many similarities Dashyy.

The IVC is an interesting syndrome.

The growth of the IVC narrative signifies somewhere the need to look beyond the religious plinth of nationhood as envisaged by the founding father and his two nation theory.

Maybe grown and been fostered in a time where the original narrative is either not enough, or probably facing stormy seas generically universally.

The irony of the revisionist not-India dissociation rationality of course being that most of the IVC bloodlines are currently in the east and south of India.

But lets not let reality come in the way of the forging of a national identity different and exclusive of the womb it was birthed and separated from.

We've had some epic IVC threads here in the past. @Bang Galore @Joe Shearer had quite copious contributions on the same.

I do not call it IVC, I call it SSC (saraswati-Sindhu civilisation), and this I feel is the reason for their identity crisis. While many from across the border claim IVC's inheritance, I doubt it. SSC lives through Indians and their culture.
i had collected some material on it and created few threads like these(for which I received a lot of brick bats. Lolz)

Dholavira- The zenith of Harappan town planning!

India 11,000 years back!!!

 

[Dash]

No Dashyy
I disagree.
The situation in Palestine is not akin to Kashmir, though there're some parallels when you look at it superficially.
My reasons are :
1) Kashmir readily merged with India. In 1947 when Paksitan attacked Kashmir, Kashmiris welcomed Indian army with open hands, while ppl living in Palestine were forced to live under Israeli govt.
2) Kashmir is an integral part of India like any other Indian state. Leaders are democratically elected and we do not treat Kashmiris as refugees,like the Palestinians who suffer at the hands of Israel.
3) India is a secular country, India has never claimed religious exclusivism for it's Hindu citizens unlike Israel which was formed for Jews.
4) The constitution of India prevents non-Kashmiris from buying up land in the state of J&K while Israel has constructed exclusive colonies in West Bank and Gaza.
I do not see many similarities Dashyy.

I do not call it IVC, I call it SSC (saraswati-Sindhu civilisation), and this I feel is the reason for their identity crisis. While many from across the border claim IVC's inheritance, I doubt it. SSC lives through Indians and their culture.
i had collected some material on it and created few threads like these(for which I received a lot of brick bats. Lolz)

Dholavira- The zenith of Harappan town planning!

India 11,000 years back!!!

YouYou never really know why India and pak are fighting over Kashmir. Its not that simple

 

[Levina]

YouYou never really know why India and pak are fighting over Kashmir. Its not that simple

The issue complicated as the years passed by.
Alas, its too late now.