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I am sorry.. i also dont want to drag anything further.. You have your own reservations and i have mine on what is good for our country :cheers:... secondly your hold on France part of EADS is correct i am not denying that... lets c what is there in the pot.. if EF does win lets c what France has got its take...

Wanted to add one thing.. France looks good but they are cunning... only trusted partner for India is Russia

No need to say sorry, as I told you before, you just ran into conclusions too fast. Actually I think we agree on more points here than you think, because we both think that the Eurocanards are the better choice of our forces, compared to Mig, or the US fighters. We both think that EF and Rafale are very capable fighters, possibly with the highest potential in the competition and that the EF offset offers are possibly the best.
But although I was born and raised in Germany and would love to see closer ties between India and Germany, I don't think EF is the right fighter for our forces, just because it has not get the best out of its potential yet. The Rafale on the other side is a more mature fighter, with a better level of tech and weapon integration, so would be more useful for our forces and means offers more in return for the money we spend.
 
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No need to say sorry, as I told you before, you just ran into conclusions too fast. Actually I think we agree on more points here than you think, because we both think that the Eurocanards are the better choice of our forces, compared to Mig, or the US fighters. We both think that EF and Rafale are very capable fighters, possibly with the highest potential in the competition and that the EF offset offers are possibly the best.
But although I was born and raised in Germany and would love to see closer ties between India and Germany, I don't think EF is the right fighter for our forces, just because it has not get the best out of its potential yet. The Rafale on the other side is a more mature fighter, with a better level of tech and weapon integration, so would be more useful for our forces and means offers more in return for the money we spend.

it is hard to compare both fighter for which one is better .. now which country can provide better deal in terms of fighter + other support ...

i know this deal is not just limited to 126 jet only
but if we truly want to compare all fighter ,, just only fighters,, which will come out as better present + future aspects
 
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Ajai Shukla: Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s

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Given the global buzz around the Indian Air Force ongoing $10-billion procurement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), my suggestion to scrap the process and, instead, go in for a straight buy of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightening II fighters is admittedly radical. But consider this: when the F-35 enters service, a couple of years from now, it will comfortably outclass every one of the six fighters that the IAF is currently evaluating. Thereafter, through the entire 30-40 year service life of the selected MMRCA, the IAF will fly a second-rung fighter when it could have gotten the best.

The six fighters that the IAF has flight-tested over the last year — Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Dassault’s Rafale; the Russian MiG-35; the Swedish Saab Gripen NG; and the Eurofighter — are categorised, even by their manufacturers, as Fourth Generation fighters. In contrast, the F-35 is globally acknowledged as a Fifth Generation fighter. The key to its superiority is stealth, making it effectively invisible to radar at longer ranges. This is a battle-winning advantage in aerial combat, where radars are the only way of "seeing" the enemy; the F-35 will detect enemy fighters and launch missiles at them, well before being detected. While attacking ground targets in enemy territory, the F-35 will remain undetected until it is too late to react. Unsurprisingly, each Fifth Generation fighter is the battlefield equivalent of three-four previous generation aircraft.

Since the IAF knows all this, why is the F-35 not in the MMRCA contest? Because, while framing the specifications for the 126-fighter tender in 2003, the IAF set the bar so low that the F-35 was overqualified. The Ministry of Defence (MoD), still nursing a hangover from the Tehelka sting expose, wanted to avoid potential controversy by having several vendors competing for the MMRCA order. Had the IAF been allowed to keep the long-term in mind, and to demand Fifth Generation capabilities, only the F-35 would have met the tender requirement. With that single-vendor situation an MoD bugaboo, the IAF'’s specifications were dumbed down to bring in a clutch of Fourth Generation fighters.

When Lockheed Martin ” one of the four vendors that received inquiries from the IAF in 2003-04 ” studied the requirement, it offered the F-16 Super Viper, which it estimated met Indias requirements. Offering the overqualified, and pricier, F-35 made little business sense: India's procurement rules give no credit for exceeding the tender requirements. The Defence Procurement Procedure mandates that the cheapest of the vendors that meets the technical requirements automatically wins a contract.

Price was just one reason for offering the F-16. With the F-35s prototype not even having flown then (it first flew in 2006), Lockheed Martin knew that the F-35 would not be available for flight-testing in the time frame that the IAF wanted. Senior IAF officers believe that Lockheed Martin made a strategic decision: to field the F-16 in the MMRCA competition; and later offer the F-35 as a Fifth Generation fighter, a logical follow-on to the F-16. But that offer (which officials confirm was made to the IAF later) was a non-starter: India had decided to partner Russia in jointly developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Today, much has changed. The F-35 programme has moved into its production phase and will be flying operationally soon. Senior Lockheed Martin officials confirm that the US is more than keen to sell India the F-35. Meanwhile, a more confident MoD has demonstrated through its single-vendor purchases of the C-130J Super Hercules and C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft — that it has the political courage to buy American systems when they clearly outclass the competition.

Senior IAF officers, serving and retired, make two arguments against the F-35. Accepting that the F-35 far outclasses the other MMRCA contenders, they apprehend that scrapping the MMRCA purchase risks losing several years that the MoD will surely take for fresh evaluations and financial sanctions for buying the F-35.

This logic does injustice to the MoD, which has demonstrated in the C-130J and C-17 procurements that it is capable of acting decisively. Having shed its post-Kargil, Pakistan-centric mindset, and focusing on building credible offensive-defence capabilities against China, surely the MoD will not spend $10 billion on fighters that will be outclassed with the inevitable appearance of Chinese Fifth Generation fighters over the Himalayas.

The other IAF concern is that, with the F-35 still under development, there is little clarity on when it will become available or on what terms. But the announcement last week of Israels purchase of 20 F-35s (with another 75 likely to follow) has dispelled much of the mist. Israel, which is not even one of the nine countries that funded the F-35 development, will be buying the fighters for $96 million each under the Foreign Military Sales programme, for not much more than the Rafales and Eurofighters estimated cost. Israel will get its F-35s between 2015 and 2017; several of the MMRCA contenders will need as long.

Significantly, defence analysts believe that Israel has obtained Washingtons okay to integrate a variety of Israeli sensors and weaponry onto the F-35. The US has long resisted this since it involves passing on software source codes to the Israelis. With an order of 126-200 fighters, India too could demand this important concession.

Given India's deteriorating security environment, it must build a Fifth Generation air force, one that will remain the pre-eminent power in South Asia the next two decades. The Fifth Generation heavy fighter already in the works, in partnership with Russia, will only enter service towards the end of the decade. In the medium fighter segment, a Fifth Generation fighter is as essential, with strategic balance maintained by importing from the US. For obvious political reasons, the initiative to scrap the MMRCA and go in for the F-35 must come from the IAF; and the MoD must assure them of minimal delay.



:what::what::what::what:




<B>Ajai Shukla:</B> Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s
 
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@ AJAYSHUKLA :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35
 
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actually makes a lot of sense to buy f35 instead of mmrca. it'll only be 1.25x as expensive and the 250+ Su30s will keep the skies safe for the next 5 years or so. it won't happen though.
 
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@ AJAYSHUKLA :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35

connanxlrc1000,
Pls dont do hitwall yaar.:what:He is one of the few defense journalist who wrote some good credible articles. :)
 
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connanxlrc1000,
Pls dont do hitwall yaar.:what:He is one of the few defense journalist who wrote some good credible articles. :)

thats why i am hitting my head buddy he wrote some good articals supporting MMRCA deal and all of a sudden he is against it i just dont get it as far as change of his opinion is concerned:what: and he should have expressed this in the first place when we went for MMRCA
 
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connanxlrc1000,
Pls dont do hitwall yaar.:what:He is one of the few defense journalist who wrote some good credible articles. :)

Yes he was the one who wrote the biggest lie ever that Arjun beat the T90 Tanks. I got to know this personally from people involved.
 
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actual, if you think carefully, india really does need a complete 5th gen AF to stand a chance against China.

they'll always have a numerical advantage with a 4+ gen AF.
 
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I think AJAYSHUKLA does make a valid point. I had posted once that f-16s should be our first choice (not in full numbers) and the natural successor will be F-35. You could also split it between the MIG-35 since we already have similar aircraft and the other slice can go to the F-35. Use all other resources on Tejas 2.

The way defence deals are going, its becoming increasingly apparent that Russia and US will be our biggest vendors and partners in the future. So why not plan or scrutinize the effects through the MMRCA?
 
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@ AJAYSHUKLA :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35

Lets not shoot the messenger...its a valid suggestion !! Why not go for the best ?

The only problem is that we need fighters badly and soon -- but the reason why we are in this situation is purely MoD's fault.
 
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@ AJAYSHUKLA :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall: what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35

May be he is hinting at things to come?? The gov can take on some limited number of f-16 and order the rest for f-35vtol?? This could be a possibility u know.
 
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May be he is hinting at things to come?? The gov can take on some limited number of f-16 and order the rest for f-35vtol?? This could be a possibility u know.

The F-16, SH, EF and Rafale are currently in production.I'm not sure how much customization is involved in the F-16IN or any of the other proposals AND REGARDING f35 this is what the others think

F-35 JSF: Can It Meet Canada's Needs?
 
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AJAI SHUKLA is turning PRO-US , it seems..
 
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