CRPF asks govt to replace Insas guns with AK rifles

[vsdave2302]

Brother INSAS has serious problem of jamming. Even it gets usually jammed while Annual Range Classification fire. X-95 is even worst. Had explained about it in detail, in earlier posts.

Therefore this weapon not fit for CI or anti Naxal ops where reaction time window is very small. Most of the CI ops unit use AK series only be it RR or other special forces.

Even I carry AK only. Its not about our Indian rifle INSAS, its about my life, I can't risk it for DRDO's indigenous product

Gen V K Singh praised INSAS as a very good weapon. He how ever said that it has out lived its life. When INSAS came in, somebody should have come out with a vision of what shall be required after 15 years and development should have started. However it did not happened. Actually when you induct one weapon, you should immediately contemplate the future requirement and draw up a plan of next generation weapon. Unfortunately that has not happened in India in past but it seems to be happening now. Same is the example of one field bun. Gen sing called it an excellent gun but he said that because of bureaucratic procedure, they did not developed the next version and we lagged behind in Hillary. All this happened because of lack of vision and not anything else.

 

[vk17]

You are talking about the TAR 21 Tavor,right vk bro??

My bad, I forgot to mention it,
Yes I was talking about Tavor!!

 

[vk17]

Which gun are you talking about?

I was talking about Tavor aka X-95,
I forgot to mention it.

 

[vk17]

Sir pardon me for asking this personal question and feel free not to answer it if you think it's inappropriate/classified,Are you an Assistant Commandant in the 203 battalion??

I am sorry bro, cant disclose it

 

[Indian Patriot]

Every army has its own style or doctrines. IA has been using Mag fed LMGs for years. IA has their own effective ways of using the LMGs.
/*Cross posting from another forum-Credits to Ray of ****/
***The LMG teams carries its ammunition.
Further, the rest of LMG ammunition in
magazines is distributed ammunition
amongst the riflemen of the section.
On coming under fire, the riflemen (or
Rifle Group) take position to 'fix the enemy'. During this period a team
member of the LMG Group runs to each
rifleman carrying the extra magazines
and brings it to the LMG Group. The
LMG Group gives fire support and the
Rifle Group starts it manoeuvre and attacks the enemy at the objective.
If one had belt fed ammunition for
LMGs , as is for the MMG, the
ammunition distributed would be in
belt boxes. Carrying a belt box in
hand would restrict the soldier from doing his primary task. However, if the
LMG ammunition was being carried in
magazines, it would be kept in the
Scale B and the rifleman would be able
to perform the primary task, even on
the move. The foreseeable terrain in which they
would have to fight their battles
during the Cold War did not
contemplate mountains or
footslogging since the operation
terrain was the plains and built up area well connected by roads and
subsidiary roads. Therefore,
manpacked combat was not their
prime concern and hence their
weapons are designed to suit their op
requirement. It is a different kettle of fish for them,
now that they are in the mountains of
Afghanistan.
If you visit ARRSE (the unofficial British
Army website), you will get some idea
of what they are doing!***
SLR and Ak 47 are good rifles in their own ways,but have their own share of shortcomings. Same goes for INSAS. INSAS has fit perfectly to what Indian Armed Forces wanted for a standard issue rifle. INSAS family will serve India for years more.

Doctrines change over the years and are not always fol-proof. Sometimes whole doctrines could be seriously flawed.

When the USA invaded Iraq in 2003 they went in with M16 rifles. It is the elder brother of INSAS in the sense it does not fire full auto, correct me if I am wrong. The Americans went in thinking that they will fight the battle on their terms but they were very wrong. Battles were fought close quarters, inside house compounds and narrow alleys where they can not only clearly see the attackers face but also hear what they are speaking. It is almost like a hand-to-hand combat. What good will a single shot, accurate rifle do in such situations?

Things went so bad that USA had to dump the M16 and even borrow AK-47 for a brief period. They needed automatic fire and the AK 47 is very accurate to ranges between 200-400 meters. When you are fighting in closed spaces the maximum range between you and enemy would be 150 meters. You don't need a rifle that shoots accurately to 700 meters. The US changed their doctrine and came up with the M4 carbine which became their standard weapon. It was lighter and compact than M16 and can fire full auto when needed.

LMG/SAW is a platoon weapon. A platoon consists of 10 soldiers unless demanded by situation. In a platoon you will have an LMG, a recoil less rifle firing 84mm shells and usually a DM. So how many 30 round magazine clips will the rest of the infantry carry. Bear in mind that for every LMG magazine they carry they are sacrificing one magazine for their own rifle.

A 200 round magazine means ammunition superiority. A 200 round mag is already attached to the SAW. Another mag carried by the gunner/ his loader means total 400 rounds. If another soldier in the platoon volunteers to carry extra mag it would mean a grand total of 600 rounds. You would need 20 magazines holding 30 rounds each if you want to match these numbers for an INSAS LMG. A standard Indian army jawan carries 4 magazines in his pouch and 1 in his rifle. Calculate how many people will have to carry how many magazine clips for the INSAS LMG to be fully effective.

Its not only about the quantity of rounds. An LMG is supposed to unleash intense fire on enemy positions. You cannot fire continously at a target area if you have to keep changing your magazines every few seconds. There is a reason why every army in the world equips their LMG with atleast a 100 round magazine.

Please correct me if I am wrong. But is it wise and sensible for soldiers to be running/moving around collecting magazines for an LMG during a firefight. Either the soldiers in the group will have to stick close together near the LMG where they will be vulnerable to mortar/RPG fire or they have to be spread over a comparatively wide area where they have to crawl on their knees to keep their LMG gunner resupplied. Why make things so complicated?

The Indians have been facing low intensity and counter insurgency operations for years now. They should be knowing better than to repeat their same mistakes.

By the grace of God some good sense finally prevailed on Indian bureaucracy and they are putting an end to this INSAS fiasco. Very soon the INSAS will cease production and will be replaced by far more modern TAVOR rifles until the multi-caliber weapon comes into place. The army, the end user of this product, has been for YEARS calling for a replacement for the INSAS but every time the OFB would simply make some cosmetic changes and hand the rifle back to the army. They changed the colour of the rifle from orange to black. How is a black coloured rifle supposed to be better than an orange coloured one?

 

[Indian Patriot]

Brother nobody said CRPF has same number as Army, what I said is entire paramlitary personnel number is approximately equal to Army. But my references was about budget allocation. If you see it propotionately
their is huge difference. Well its absolutely out of topic and my apologies for bringing it up. Lets not discuss it more. Army fans will go nuts

Btw on topic Tavor is one of the worst rifle ever aquired, its mere show off.

I am damn sure that not one more of it will be aquired.
1- Has serious problem of jamming with slightest of obstruction on round ejector.
2- Red dot target seeker has too much bubbling, so aiming is difficult.
3- Small barrel leads to missing of target.
4- Most importantly its ejector is made of carbon fibre. Which melts and break by continuous fire. Happened several time with my team during range fire.
5- Carbon fibre body makes it more vulnerable to wear and tear, hence not suitable for Indian conditions.
6- Foresight is not adjustable therefore not zeroing is very difficult.
7- Small barrel lead to extremely loud firing sound. Its creates concentration problem

Well there are so many paramilitaries in India it is difficult for a civilian like me to keep track. LOL!! But just from the back of my hand there is the BSF, ITBP, Assam Rifles, CRPF, CISF, SSB. Don't know if I missed out any. These are central paramilitaries. I don't know if they count state armed police forces under center but lets assume they do for now. Even if numbers match the cost of maintaining 2,500 tanks would be much more than the budget for paramilitary. There simply cannot be any comparison whatsoever between and army and paramilitary forces regarding budget even if the paramilitary soldier numbers exceed that of the army.

ON TOPIC: I hate to say it but your are very WRONG.

1. The army parachute/SF battalions are equipped with the TAR-21 and it is the standard weapon of choice in the valley. I refuse to believe that the best units in the army, the parachute, could be so foolish to equip themselves with a faulty weapon. Why has the army gone for the TAR-21 if its defective. The number of TAR-21 has only increased over the years and more and more are coming through.

2. The INSAS has problems of jamming, has no red sight. And if, the key word being IF, what you say is really true then why don't you change the red sight. The red sight of the TAR-21 is not attached like that in a G-36. The faulty red sight will cause problems whether it is located on a TAR-21 or an M4 rifle.

3. The TAR-21 has a 460 mm barrel (18.1 inches), how much longer barrel do you need for an assault rifle? The INSAS has a barrel length of 463 mm (18.3 inches). By that definition the INSAS should be inaccurate as well.

Bull-pup design has the advantage of fitting in a longer barrel in an overall shorter gun length. In simple civilian terms, the length of the barrel is measure from the the front of the magazine to the tip of the nozzle. In bull-pups the magazine is located behind the trigger allowing for more space. Moreover a rifle with "short" barrel cannot fire upto ranges of 500 meters which the TAR-21 does.

4. This is seriously the first time I am hearing of TAR-21 melting away. Don't take it personally but I really find it hard to believe your tall claims. First of all it has not been reported that Indian army is facing problems with TAR. YES, there could be instances when out of 1,000 guns one or two might have faulty parts. But saying the weapon itself is defective holds true for INSAS not TAR.

The very best units in Indian army, parachute and SF, use the TAR-21 over the INSAS. These are people who risk their lives everyday. Surely they won't depend on a faulty mere show off rifle to defend their lives.

5. That would obviously be reinforced carbon-fiber. Please bear in mind that the INSAS uses a plastic magazine. In fact in the early days the plastic magazine would crack in extreme weather conditions usually leaving Indian army troops with a dead rifle. The polymer, reinforced one, is introduced in TAR-21 and also in many other modern rifles to cut down on weight. A fully loaded TAR-21 would weigh less than an empty INSAS.

6. You must have meant zeroing on the target. But I dare say that this is again your opinion. The TAR-21 is said to be a very accurate rifle. It is in use by many countries, that has praised the weapon and it is in use by the best units in Indian army.

7. For the second time. The TAR-21 does not have a small barrel. It is a bull-pup design where the overall length of the rifle itself is shorter but it has the same barrel length. The TAR-21 has an effective range of 500 meters compared to 400 meters for the INSAS. A short barrel cannot give you a longer effective range. Judging from the various videos online the sound of the TAR-21 and INSAS are more or less the same. So I don't understand why you find the TAR-21 louder.

In the history of Indian army maybe for the first time regular infantry units are equipped with sophisticated INSAS rifles while the crack units in the army are handed inferior TAR-21.

 

[Indian Patriot]

I see,so my guess was right indeed.Actually,the kids (like Mr Patriot here) always fall for those new,stylish,shiny looking foreign made rifles without realizing that most of those systems are designed for different kind of environment,and more often than not they develop a multitude of problems when brought into Indian environments and climate situations which by the way varies greatly from one place to another.Besides,the imported rifles (barring the AK of course) come with a price tag of about 8-10 times greater than the INSAS 1B1 which,with the UBGL costs about 25K /-.

Listen here you DAMN LOSER. First of all you don't know me so don't talk like a smartass here. Secondly you punk, go and educate yourself on weapons first. You were the one who did not have a clue on what the M4 is and you were moaning that I am comparing rifle with carbine. Retard! Thirdly, "kids" in the parachute regiment and Indian army SF prefer the "shiny looking foreign" TAR-21 to the INSAS. So go and give them your lecture.

P.S. - If you don't have anything sensible to speak then don't keep cribbing around here like a sore teenager. Do not address me if you have nothing substantial to add. I am not your friend or your colleague.

 

[acetophenol]

Doctrines change over the years and are not always fol-proof. Sometimes whole doctrines could be seriously flawed.

When the USA invaded Iraq in 2003 they went in with M16 rifles. It is the elder brother of INSAS in the sense it does not fire full auto, correct me if I am wrong. The Americans went in thinking that they will fight the battle on their terms but they were very wrong. Battles were fought close quarters, inside house compounds and narrow alleys where they can not only clearly see the attackers face but also hear what they are speaking. It is almost like a hand-to-hand combat. What good will a single shot, accurate rifle do in such situations?

Things went so bad that USA had to dump the M16 and even borrow AK-47 for a brief period. They needed automatic fire and the AK 47 is very accurate to ranges between 200-400 meters. When you are fighting in closed spaces the maximum range between you and enemy would be 150 meters. You don't need a rifle that shoots accurately to 700 meters. The US changed their doctrine and came up with the M4 carbine which became their standard weapon. It was lighter and compact than M16 and can fire full auto when needed.

M16 could do full auto,3 round burst and single shots. Trained soldiers never go full auto. You waste your ammo,get your barrel heated up and probably hit nothing. Thats why going full auto is called 'spray and pray'. All armys train to take down enemys in a single shot,in every situation. In Indian Army ,its 'Ek Goli,Ek Dushman'. There are videos of live combat of USMC in Afghan and Iraq,even under intense conditions,M4 carbine does not go full auto. They may pull trigger continuously in bursts,but not full auto. Its the SAW that goes full auto,that too in intervals. You see army men going full auto only in movies and video games.

LMG/SAW is a platoon
weapon. A platoon consists
of 10 soldiers unless demanded by situation. In a
platoon you will have an LMG,
a recoil less rifle firing 84mm
shells and usually a DM. So
how many 30 round
magazine clips will the rest of the infantry carry. Bear in
mind that for every LMG
magazine they carry they are
sacrificing one magazine for
their own rifle.
A 200 round magazine means ammunition
superiority. A 200 round mag
is already attached to the
SAW. Another mag carried by
the gunner/ his loader means
total 400 rounds. If another soldier in the platoon
volunteers to carry extra mag
it would mean a grand total
of 600 rounds. You would
need 20 magazines holding
30 rounds each if you want to match these numbers for
an INSAS LMG. A standard
Indian army jawan carries 4
magazines in his pouch and 1
in his rifle. Calculate how
many people will have to carry how many magazine
clips for the INSAS LMG to be
fully effective.
Its not only about the
quantity of rounds. An LMG is
supposed to unleash intense fire on enemy positions. You
cannot fire continously at a
target area if you have to
keep changing your
magazines every few
seconds. There is a reason why every army in the world
equips their LMG with atleast a
100 round magazine.
Please correct me if I am
wrong. But is it wise and
sensible for soldiers to be running/moving around
collecting magazines for an
LMG during a firefight. Either
the soldiers in the group will
have to stick close together
near the LMG where they will be vulnerable to mortar/RPG
fire or they have to be spread
over a comparatively wide
area where they have to
crawl on their knees to keep
their LMG gunner resupplied. Why make things so
complicated?

Keep in mind that every army comes out with their own doctrines and styles. IA has its own,and they know better. Carrying a 200 round mag does affect the mobility of the gunner. And no matter whatever type gun (portable) you carry,you go full auto for like 30-60 rounds,your barrel will be cherry hot red. 30 round mags are easier to carry,and mag change gives you interval for barrel cool down. And INSAS mags are interchangeable,LMGs can fire rifle mags and vice versa. And another point is, an INSAS LMG will perfectly blend in with other rifles so the enemy won't know who is the support gunner. An INSAS LMG can fire accurate shots with point accuracy and still go full auto. IA always could've got belt fed LMGs if they wanted,yet they sticked to Mag fed LMGs,coz thats their doctrine and they know what they are doing. Even USMC has been using 30 round mag fed M27 Infantary Automatic Rifles in the SAW role.
M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Indians have been facing
low intensity and counter
insurgency operations for
years now. They should be knowing better than to
repeat their same mistakes.
By the grace of God some
good sense finally prevailed
on Indian bureaucracy and
they are putting an end to this INSAS fiasco. Very soon
the INSAS will cease
production and will be
replaced by far more modern
TAVOR rifles until the multi-
caliber weapon comes into place. The army, the end user
of this product, has been for
YEARS calling for a
replacement for the INSAS but
every time the OFB would
simply make some cosmetic changes and hand the rifle
back to the army. They
changed the colour of the
rifle from orange to black.
How is a black coloured rifle
supposed to be better than an orange coloured one?

INSAS has seen conflict in Kargil,NE,Kashmir and peace keeping missions and countless trainings missions. INSAS rifle is being changed not because INSAS is a bad rifle.but because of IA's decision to use Multi cal rifles. Tavour will never be a replacement for INSAS.OFB did not merely change the colour of the INSAS,its a rifle with improved metallurgy. It weighs less than its earlier brothers.

Another important point is that,5.45 MM FMJs were designed to penetrate the body armour and unless it strikes a bone,it won't unleash enough kinetic energy to disable the enemy. It merely enters the enemy,and leaves penetrating the armour. This will leave him wounded which is perfect while fighting a profesional army,as they will have to give medical attention to their wounded buddy. So its perfect to wound him rather than killing him. Thats not the case with 7.62 mm rounds. Its bloody powerful,unleashing enough KE to knock you down. Perfect for Counter Insurgency roles as its better to kill insurgents.

Do not pointlessly blame INSAS and its makers,being a member of a defence forum you should know better not to blame a piece of equipment that has served meritoriously in our services for years.

 

[rcrmj]

Nonsense of the highest order. The issues related to stoppages in 1999 were corrected over a decade ago, since then the INSAS has been developed into an accurate, reliable and proven standard issue rifle that has served the IA very well but it is over 2 decades old now and the time has come to look for a replacement (MCIWS).



It's quite simple and only idiots would jump on this news and start bashing the INSAS. The CRPF are talking about replacing the INSAS with their units deployed in COIN (anti-Naxal) operations where they, just like the IA's RR, prefer the "stopping power" of the 7.62mm round.

The INSAS was always intended to be the IA's "battle rifle" i.e. for their conventional units but when units are deployed for COIN (the RR) they are issued the 7.62mm firing AK family- it has been this way for decades. It doesn't mean the INSAS is not a capable weapon in any way shape or form.


This is exactly the issue the MCIWS is intended to address- one rifle will be able to be used in any conflict the IA is engaged in (COIN conflicts, firing the 7.62mm, and conventional wars, firing the 5.56mm) with some minimal parts changes.

for all the deluded, you are by far the worst````INSAS is inaccurate, unreliable and clumsy, a 60s years old rifle would do much better than this piece of 20 years joke

 

[Koovie]

for all the deluded, you are by far the worst````INSAS is inaccurate, unreliable and clumsy, a 60s years old rifle would do much better than this piece of 20 years joke

Do you actually have any backup for this ? Or is it just another child of your fantasy.......

 

[Omega007]

for all the deluded, you are by far the worst````INSAS is inaccurate, unreliable and clumsy, a 60s years old rifle would do much better than this piece of 20 years joke

Anything to back it up other than your brain farts would be helpful.Thank you.

 

[special]

Indian Army Soldiers undergoing CQB during exercise with INSAS...

 

[rcrmj]

Anything to back it up other than your brain farts would be helpful.Thank you.

use your tiny brain to work out why to use a 60 years old AK to replace this piece of junk, you indian really dont have what it takes to figure out a very simple reality dont you?

 

[Omega007]

use your tiny brain to work out why to use a 60 years old AK to replace this piece of junk, you indian really dont have what it takes to figure out a very simple reality dont you?

As expected,you do not have the tiniest idea about the situation.Anyway I'm done with you,carry on with your metal masturbation.

 

[rcrmj]

As expected,you do not have the tiniest idea about the situation.Anyway I'm done with you,carry on with your metal masturbation.

lol, as clueless as usual, keep masturb@ting over your INSAS a product of primitive industry, that only served for 2 decades,