Cleric terms Women’s Protection Bill contrary to Islamic Sharia

[SMC]

Doesnt that depend on the society or the country you live in?
You would be right if it was an equal rights society where men and women have the same rights and are treated equal,but as you know,Pakistan is not such a country,therefor this law is necessary.
How can a village ''court''(some clerics,village elders or chief) ''overthrow'' a decission by a state court and how is that acceptable to those concerned?

I missed this reply. Sorry, I don't see why the society or country matters. If a group is victimized more than another group then implement the law the same way so that both groups are given the same protection. Village or religious verdicts should not be implemented. The state should implement the law, but the law the state creates should apply the same to both genders.

 

[Hell hound]

My point is there should be!

If I am to shove a man, he wont go far but if a man shoves me in anger I might fly across a room! If the law (as an example) says xyz punishment for a shove, why should I be punished equally?

If a woman is raped, she undergoes physical abuse, lost of trust, psychological trauma followed by rejection of society followed by the chances of getting pregnant (esp if in villages or the poor) ....there is less to no such chances for a man getting raped by a woman ...

So why should the punishment be the same?

If a man shoots (considering he has a gun would have a licence) and a woman shoots and misses (using husbands gun) why should both be charged the same?
How many men have been locked out of their homes in the middle of the night by a jealous mother in law? out in the dark for rapist to feed off?
How many men have been abused for not bringing enough jahayz? Wait men dont bring dowry! Silly me!
How many men have got acid thrown over them?

How many women have undergone psychological trauma while undergoing postpartum depression? Esp if she has a baby girl instead of a boy? 1stly, the men dont get pregnant however, there have been cases where men blames a woman for not providing the "Y" Chromosome which he was supposed to provide to the baby - Please dont deny it doesnt happen sadly it does!

A man doesnt have to carry a baby in him and then get abused that the baby didnt have a "Y" chromosome!

Yea so if there are different ways to abuse women which WONT happen or RARELY happen to men then there should be different laws too!

sis going by this logic can i demand different rights too because i am a skinny guy who cant do much damage in a fist fight or by shoving someone.

 

[Dubious]

In this case abuse is made so easy that anyone can do it, you don't even need a lawyer.

THAT is how it is being played in Pakistan by male dominant society ...it isnt even a phenomena to ignore or deny!

I think you're cherry-picking my post. I said that you're exaggerating. Are you telling me that in most cases women are blamed? I don't think that claim can be scientifically proven because there's no research to prove it. There are likely anecdotes, but that is it.

I am not even exaggerating it is a known phenomena so known and stupid it needed some form of social educating

'Rape the girl, blame the girl' - Blogs - DAWN.COM

CADTM - Pakistan women's day. Rape victim blaming attitude

Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) Chief Syed Munawar Hassansaid in an interviewthat a rape victim should stay silent and not report the incident to the police, or anyone else for that matter.
Options for rape victims in Pakistan: Stay silent, get an abortion or set yourself on fire – The Express Tribune Blog

Options for rape victims in Pakistan: Stay silent, get an abortion or set yourself on fire – The Express Tribune Blog

I could go on....but it will take time but it isnt unheard of!

That is not my point. What I am saying is because of household objects available to women that can be potentially used as weapons, the difference in physical strength becomes largely irrelevant.

Have you not studied science? In today's world you can measure the force used to stab....you cant deny that a man's stab is different from a woman's! Physical strength speaks alot...In Pakistan every boy wants a thin hourglass girl who wont be able to stab him as hard as he can her! Even in the West where women work out, the maths doesnt equate the man's stab to the woman's stab...it differs....

Do you support the blasphemy laws in Pakistan too?

Nope they are stupid ...I dont understand how it is a blasphemy to say something but perfectly ok to go and get a drink or threaten people, or to violate the rights of minorities, women and children Or to support rapist...All of these are worse than blasphemy! Plus that word was first used by Crusaders...everything was a blasphemy when you didnt bow to the pope!

Sure one shouldnt go around inciting hatred (example preacher doing a national wide burn the quran day), or making it ok to draw prophet cartoons and so on...but that should def be protection of every religion ....the right to practice one's faith....1 of the few laws of America and Europe I do like ...clear cut but sadly it allowed formation of churches but not mosques ...it allows the ringing of the church bells in almost every country in Europe ( I have visited more than 10 and I have heard the church bells in almost all on Sunday and in some countries almost every few hrs - they claim its an old tradition to tell time by ringing church bells for a few mins...but it would kill them if they heard the Adhan for the same few mins )

No law is perfect but if you dont have the ability to amend or change your laws as time passes, then the laws eventually do become useless

 

[T-123456]

Village or religious verdicts should not be implemented. The state should implement the law, but the law the state creates should apply the same to both genders.

Well,in your country the first sentence happens alot and the state institutions dont even know or dont want to know it happens.
In your country,the rights issue is not as equal as some claim it to be.

 

[Dubious]

sis going by this logic can i demand different rights too because i am a skinny guy who cant do much damage in a fist fight or by shoving someone.

if you are a skinny guy I dont think you will be charged...why are you "pre demanding" rights? Are you going to commit a murder or violence?

I think you guys are crazy to worry about some laws which are based on VIOLENCE...and no violence doesnt mean screaming, shoving or slapping, until and unless something causes damage or leaves a mark it is not counted as violence in Western law, I would assume the 1880s British laws have the same definitions in Pakistan!

You people are already frightened of something that hasnt even come to play! THAT is scary it shows our society is scared of change

Can I ask why ALL THOSE fighting this bill are male and have not produced a single sentence from the bill which actually stands by what they fear?!

Until and unless you guys can produce a single line to actually put "MEN'S LIVES IN DANGER" ...you guys sound just like the cleric whose candies were taken from them and are calling this bill unislamic! Like Islam says let women endure violence!

I missed this reply. Sorry, I don't see why the society or country matters. If a group is victimized more than another group then implement the law the same way so that both groups are given the same protection. Village or religious verdicts should not be implemented. The state should implement the law, but the law the state creates should apply the same to both genders.

All your replies are based on theory not practice...I invite you to wake up and go to Pakistan, experience it practically for some 6 mths not 3 days - guests dont learn a thing!

Until and unless you men have anything to be substantially afraid of, I suggest be god fearing and leave only the second bloody bill that at least favours women in Pakistan alone! (first bill was increasing the age of women for marriage though not implemented but can be brought up if ever someone is dragged to court)

 

[Zarvan]

Usually when papers use such words, the guy barely is a 10th grader pass and is in position only coz his dad or ancestor played some role OR even better coz he has a few 20 murids if he is so bloody famous his name would have been used!


Whats the contradiction? Do you know the meaning of that word?



Contradiction to this law would be do crime against women...So does the Quran happen to say beat women up? rape them and be violent? If that were the case then Prophet SAW was contradicting YOUR quran where he didnt beat his women and ALWAYS told about how important a mother is...It would be a pathetic joke if he was asking the father of that child to inflict harm on the same mother (who is a woman)

USE YOUR BRAINS AT TIMES PLEASE! It is not a decoration piece!

Yes I know total crap law only will make women life hell

 

[curious]

Yea so if there are different ways to abuse women which WONT happen or RARELY happen to men then there should be different laws too!

That implies that men and women are fundamentally different thus requiring different laws to deal with their issues. If the difference is recognized at legislative level, then where does that leave the claims of equality?

Can I ask why ALL THOSE fighting this bill are male and have not produced a single sentence from the bill which actually stands by what they fear?!

Until and unless you guys can produce a single line to actually put "MEN'S LIVES IN DANGER" ...you guys sound just like the cleric whose candies were taken from them and are calling this bill unislamic! Like Islam says let women endure violence!

Woah! easy there! whats with the huge text?
Why shouldn't we fear when our basic rights are threatened?
The problems with the bill have been shown time and time again, if you choose to ignore it than thats your problem. I posted before:

And how do we solve this problem? by forcefully taking the mans property and giving it to the woman? Claiming to get rid of one injustice you create an even bigger one, as if this country isnt plagued with enough problems already!
Look at the text:
"On receipt of the complaint, the Court shall issue a notice to the defendant
calling upon him to show cause within seven days of the receipt of notice as to why any order
under this Act may not be made and if the defendant fails to file a reply within the specified
time, the Court, subject to service of the notice on the defendant, shall assume that the
defendant has no plausible defense and proceed to pass any order under this Act."

"If the Court is satisfied that the complaint prima facie shows that the defendant
has committed an act of violence or is likely to commit an act of violence, it may issue an
order on the basis of an affidavit of the aggrieved person or any other material before the
Court."

Prima facie. Latin for "at first sight." Prima facie may be used as an adjective meaning "sufficient to establish a fact or raise a presumption unless disproved or rebutted;" e.g., prima facie evidence.
In common law jurisdictions, prima facie denotes evidence that, unless rebutted, would be sufficient to prove a particular proposition or fact.

In other words the court will assume that that the man is guilty unless he rebuts it with evidence or in other words, guilty until proven innocent.
So if some woman comes to the court all teary eyed and tells them a story of how cruel her husband and the evil in laws are to her and shows them a scar or a blue patch of skin while beads of tears rolling down her cheeks then thats it ,hes the villain who must prove otherwise or else.And by the way women have on average higher emotional intelligence compared to men and they are very good at invoking people's sympathies for them.

So it will be quite easy to convict men under this law.And once that is done:

"Right to reside in house.– Notwithstanding anything contained in any other law, the
aggrieved person, who is the victim of domestic violence, shall not be evicted, save in
accordance with law, from the house without her consent or if wrongfully evicted, the Court
shall restore the position obtaining before the eviction of the aggrieved person if the aggrieved
person has right, title or beneficial interest in the house."

"Protection order.– (1) If the Court is satisfied that any violence has been committed
or is likely to be committed, the Court may pass a protection order in favour of the aggrieved
person and direct the defendant:
(a) not to have any communication with the aggrieved person, with or without
exceptions;
(b) stay away from the aggrieved person, with or without exceptions;
(c) stay at such distance from the aggrieved person as may, keeping in view the
peculiar facts and circumstances of the case, be determined by the Court;
(d) wear ankle or wrist bracelet GPS tracker to track the movement of the
defendant twenty four hours, seven days a week;
(e) move out of the house;
(f) surrender any weapon or firearm which the defendant lawfully possesses or
prohibit the defendant from purchasing a firearm or obtaining license of a
firearm;
(g) refrain from aiding or abetting an act of violence;
(h) refrain from entering the place of employment of the aggrieved person or any
other place frequently visited by the aggrieved person;
(i) refrain from causing violence to a dependent, other relative or any person who
provides assistance to the aggrieved person against violence; or
(j) refrain from committing such other acts as may be specified in the protection
order."
"Residence order.– (1) The Court, in case of domestic violence, may in addition to any
order under section 7, pass a residence order directing that:
(a) the aggrieved person shall not be evicted, save in accordance with law,
from the house;
(b) the aggrieved person has the right to stay in the house;
(c) the defendant shall not sell or transfer the house to any person other
than the aggrieved person;
(d) the aggrieved person may be relocated from the house to the shelter
home for purposes of relief, protection and rehabilitation;
(e) the defendant shall deliver the possession of any property or
documents to the aggrieved person to which the aggrieved person is
entitled;
(f) the defendant or any relative of the defendant is restrained from
entering the shelter home or place of employment or any other place
frequently visited by the aggrieved person; or
(g) shall arrange an alternative accommodation for the aggrieved person or
to pay rent for the alternative accommodation."

It is quite clear form the text that if it is established that he has done "violence" or is likely to commit violence which he fails to disprove, he stands to loose his property.
The state has no right to take property from its owner and give it to another. Just because he has done some violence and/or likely to do the same doesn't make it ok to kick him out of his own house, thats simply wrong and unjust. In case of minor offense like mental torture or slapping etc, wife can complain to the court and divorce declared between them, in case of major beating or bodily injury, in addition to divorce, some punishment will have to be imposed on the perpetrator(s) like jail terms. In case of heinous crimes like so called honor killings or acid attacks, harsh punishments must be imposed or the offenders without any exceptions.Having said that you still cannot deprive them of their property, that is simply wrong. And yes its unislamic too.Islam doesn't allow driving people off their property for committing domestic violence.

And we haven't even gotten to the "monetary relief" part of it yet:
"Monetary order.– (1) The Court may, at any stage of the trial of a case, pass an order
directing the defendant to pay monetary relief to meet the expenses incurred and losses
suffered by the aggrieved person and such relief may include:
(a) such compensation, as the Court may determine, to the aggrieved person for
suffering as a consequence of economic abuse;
(b) loss of earning;
(c) medical expense;
(d) loss caused due to the destruction, damage or removal of any property from
the control of the aggrieved person to which the aggrieved person is entitled;
and
(e) reasonable maintenance for the aggrieved person and her dependent children,
if any, in addition to an order of maintenance under family laws.
(2) The Court shall have due regard to the financial needs and resources of the
parties before passing any order under subsection (1).
(3) The defendant shall pay monetary relief to the aggrieved person within the
period specified in the order made under subsection (1).
(4) If the defendant fails to make payment within the period mentioned in the order,
the Court shall direct the employer or debtor of the defendant, directly to pay the aggrieved
person or to deposit with the Court a portion of the wages or debt due to or accrued to the
credit of the defendant.
(5) The amount paid or deposited under subsection (4) shall be adjusted by the
employer or debtor towards payment to the defendant."
Wow! talk about tying people up in knots! so after being kicked out of his house, the poor bugger has to work his butt off to provide "monetary relief" to the woman living in his house which he cannot enter and for all he knows she may already have another man living there in his place.No wonder men in the west avoid marriages.

So of course men are fearful of such a draconian law.
Rights such as right to property, self defense, privacy, etc, these are basic rights that a state must acknowledge for all free citizens. State cannot use domestic violence as an excuse to deprive citizens of these rights otherwise the very fact that they are free citizens comes into question!

Until and unless you men have anything to be substantially afraid of, I suggest be god fearing and leave only the second bloody bill that at least favours women in Pakistan alone! (first bill was increasing the age of women for marriage though not implemented but can be brought up if ever someone is dragged to court)

So this law is justified because men must have something to be substantially afraid of, even though it raises serious problems like, you know, trampling over basic human rights !?!?
Under pretext to fight an evil, there creating an even bigger evil, how retarded is that.
Yes we do have serious problems with domestic violence/abuse, infact we have a problem with abuse, all types of abuse domestic or otherwise. In order to start taking care of it we need to seriously revamp our justice system and law enforcement and civil services. And this can only be done if we manage to stop the rampant corruption and nepotism that has rotten our society to its core.And for that to happen the rulers will have to bring themselves to justice, so i wouldn't hold my breath.

 

[Dubious]

That implies that men and women are fundamentally different thus requiring different laws to deal with their issues. If the difference is recognized at legislative level, then where does that leave the claims of equality?

Those people argueing on this very thread are actually the victims of that said equality!

Equality in "treatment" is understood...meaning be police, nice, compassionate and all to both....But when physiologically, psychologically, anatomically, morphological, and every other science screams out men and women ARE different, who are we to force them 100% equality?

I am not advocating you to go and start treating anyone less...But acknowledge the difference....Not so much as our laws which have somehow excluded women justice altogether and def not like Western laws where ex husbands have to beg repeatedly to just see their children!

Sure man made laws are what they are MAN MADE....they are bound to have flaws, the thing is realizing and FIXING the flaw not dwelling on it by ONLY acknowledging it!

Woah! easy there! whats with the huge text?
Why shouldn't we fear when our basic rights are threatened?
The problems with the bill have been shown time and time again, if you choose to ignore it than thats your problem. I posted before:

1 the huge text is called emphasis...when I make it bold people miss it...but no one misses caps!

As for the problems you have not shown me any problem....MANY on this thread have hand picked out of context some words but totally taken out of context with phobia of some form following!
Ok I will go through your "fear" and show you how unreasonable you sound..

1st part of your "fear"

And how do we solve this problem? by forcefully taking the mans property and giving it to the woman? Claiming to get rid of one injustice you create an even bigger one, as if this country isnt plagued with enough problems already!
Look at the text:
"On receipt of the complaint, the Court shall issue a notice to the defendant
calling upon him to show cause within seven days of the receipt of notice as to why any order
under this Act may not be made and if the defendant fails to file a reply within the specified
time, the Court, subject to service of the notice on the defendant, shall assume that the
defendant has no plausible defense and proceed to pass any order under this Act."

"If the Court is satisfied that the complaint prima facie shows that the defendant
has committed an act of violence or is likely to commit an act of violence, it may issue an
order on the basis of an affidavit of the aggrieved person or any other material before the
Court."

Prima facie. Latin for "at first sight." Prima facie may be used as an adjective meaning "sufficient to establish a fact or raise a presumption unless disproved or rebutted;" e.g., prima facie evidence.
In common law jurisdictions, prima facie denotes evidence that, unless rebutted, would be sufficient to prove a particular proposition or fact.

In other words the court will assume that that the man is guilty unless he rebuts it with evidence or in other words, guilty until proven innocent.
So if some woman comes to the court all teary eyed and tells them a story of how cruel her husband and the evil in laws are to her and shows them a scar or a blue patch of skin while beads of tears rolling down her cheeks then thats it ,hes the villain who must prove otherwise or else.And by the way women have on average higher emotional intelligence compared to men and they are very good at invoking people's sympathies for them.

If you have read the bill there are a few things in it:

1) complaint

How long does our court take to even process a complaint?

2) issue of notice

Now if the guy is innocent then why wouldnt he come forward? And it is a simple test of exclusion which EVERY policeman has to do...He goes through the list of likely suspects and rules out whichever has an alibi or pulls in new suspects with motives...Howelse have crimes being investigated? Sure it is new to Pakistan but the rest of the world does follow this procedure of QUESTIONING A MAN oh the shocker!

If a notice is issued.....Unless you dont trust our courts (by that definition NO LAW/ BILL would satisfy you), it is the DUTY of the court to CHECK WHAT IS FILED (complaint)
INVESTIGATE (the shocker that men need to be investigated now not just women must be new and prob the main cause of the fear)

BEFORE the notice is issued....Now if there is reason to doubt the man ....EVERY COURT ON THE PLANET would ask the bloody man to come clean or rot in jail! I am just not sure which planet you people have been living on that this is news for you?!

The word sufficient apparently means there is a threshold set under which men dont need to pee in their pants....until and unless they are guilty!

So if some woman comes to the court all teary eyed and tells them a story of how cruel her husband and the evil in laws are to her and shows them a scar or a blue patch of skin while beads of tears rolling down her cheeks then thats it ,hes the villain who must prove otherwise or else.

Now what you are crying about when it comes to men you are "accusing" women to be guilty for merely just crying and assuming they would be automatically framing the men:

And by the way women have on average higher emotional intelligence compared to men and they are very good at invoking people's sympathies for them

AND WHAT IF SHE IS TELLING THE TRUTH? Is it not good for her to have some place to go and seek justice?

THIS "argument" shows you have no trust in the legal system of Pakistan so your cry is not about the bill but about the system! Go raise fingers about the system not about the rights given to women!

"Right to reside in house.– Notwithstanding anything contained in any other law, the
aggrieved person, who is the victim of domestic violence, shall not be evicted, save in
accordance with law, from the house without her consent or if wrongfully evicted, the Court
shall restore the position obtaining before the eviction of the aggrieved person if the aggrieved
person has right, title or beneficial interest in the house."

Now you have a basic problem about the house ....it is fine if she is thrown out of the house but god forbid she be allowed in and to stay?

Again your brawl is with the system coz the bill states this will only be done in case of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE not if the girl starts crying...Well, your problem is also with Pakistani mindset, if some girl starts fighting with a man or crying on the street, some men will come as her "brother" while the same men do much worse to their own women....And the same men would be too scared to "brotherly interfere" if she were being paraded naked (as has been reported in villages)...Double standards? VERY MUCH!


So if you dont want to transgress (word from the Quran) dont get involved in domestic violence it is not a must to be involved in violating women to be called a man! Be a man and dont behave like a neanderthal! The bill is simply to keep men as humans and not transgress! Read the bill within context

I have made bold and underlined the important words which none of you wish to see either coz you dont trust the courts or because you feel like playing the victim card!

2ndly, if you fear for you life/ rights (which is sad you should be fearing when ALLAH gave the rights to women not when a bill comes up) then dont violate the rights of another!

State cannot use domestic violence as an excuse to deprive citizens of these rights otherwise the very fact that they are free citizens comes into question!

State can punish its citizens for behaving less humanly and punish them in the hope to civilize them!

its like asking a child to behave or else his toy will be taken away

Some children never grow up and the need to apply the same rules just shows how childish some people are and how materialistic! You lot are worried about things being taken away from people who are violent to women without considering the violence the women in our nation have to suffer!

Yes I know total crap law only will make women life hell

By you saying it doesnt make it crap but by you saying it contradicts the Quran, shows either you have no clue what Islam is about or you have no clue of the word contradiction!

you saying the law contradicts Islam means Islam actually asks women to be violated and get no form of justice....Kindly do get yourself checked coz my prophet never taught that so please dont even start!

 

[iPhone]

I watched a little bit of debate on this by the religious parties and it was depressing to see the kind of sick mentality these so called religious scholars possess. And to think they're placed in the care of our children's social and religious upbringing.

What kind of individuals would these backwards, bearded men of stone age bring up in our society, one must ask. They are so much in fear of the empowering of women, even a tiny bit, that they've taken to tv channels in droves to curb any such effort.

And their tv cohorts are obviously getting paid and enjoy the back and forth bickering on their shows for the ratings. I was telling the my wife that at this point the women must stick together and expose these lunatics. It would be safe to assume they treat their wives and daughter, sisters and mothers with utmost contempt and abuse.

I hope and pray the women in their lives come out and expose their domestic abuse by these men. So the people can see the reason why these men don't want any protection bill for the women to pass is because they consider them as their property and cannot see their slaves being released from their bandage.

 

[Zibago]

if you are a skinny guy I dont think you will be charged...why are you "pre demanding" rights? Are you going to commit a murder or violence?

I think you guys are crazy to worry about some laws which are based on VIOLENCE...and no violence doesnt mean screaming, shoving or slapping, until and unless something causes damage or leaves a mark it is not counted as violence in Western law, I would assume the 1880s British laws have the same definitions in Pakistan!

You people are already frightened of something that hasnt even come to play! THAT is scary it shows our society is scared of change

Can I ask why ALL THOSE fighting this bill are male and have not produced a single sentence from the bill which actually stands by what they fear?!

Until and unless you guys can produce a single line to actually put "MEN'S LIVES IN DANGER" ...you guys sound just like the cleric whose candies were taken from them and are calling this bill unislamic! Like Islam says let women endure violence!


All your replies are based on theory not practice...I invite you to wake up and go to Pakistan, experience it practically for some 6 mths not 3 days - guests dont learn a thing!

Until and unless you men have anything to be substantially afraid of, I suggest be god fearing and leave only the second bloody bill that at least favours women in Pakistan alone! (first bill was increasing the age of women for marriage though not implemented but can be brought up if ever someone is dragged to court)

They fear the thought of women being equal

Well society is changing and age for women at marriage is increasing but their is lack of awareneas among wonen about their rights in law

Plus i dont know why these folks think if there are laws against abuse in Pakistan their wives will divorce them i mean itna bhi aitebaar nahe apnay bachoan ki maa pay?

 

[curious]

Now you have a basic problem about the house ....it is fine if she is thrown out of the house but god forbid she be allowed in and to stay?

Again your brawl is with the system coz the bill states this will only be done in case of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE not if the girl starts crying...Well, your problem is also with Pakistani mindset, if some girl starts fighting with a man or crying on the street, some men will come as her "brother" while the same men do much worse to their own women....And the same men would be too scared to "brotherly interfere" if she were being paraded naked (as has been reported in villages)...Double standards? VERY MUCH!

As i have said many times :
It is quite clear form the text that if it is established that he has done "violence" or is likely to commit violence which he fails to disprove, he stands to loose his property.(If you read the protection order and residence order, then this fact is undeniable.)
The state has no right to take property from its owner and give it to another. Just because he has done some violence and/or likely to do the same doesn't make it ok to kick him out of his own house, thats simply wrong and unjust. In case of minor offense like mental torture or slapping etc, wife can complain to the court and divorce declared between them, in case of major beating or bodily injury, in addition to divorce, some punishment will have to be imposed on the perpetrator(s) like jail terms. In case of heinous crimes like so called honor killings or acid attacks, harsh punishments must be imposed or the offenders without any exceptions.Having said that you still cannot deprive them of their property, that is simply wrong. And yes its unislamic too.Islam doesn't allow driving people off their property for committing domestic violence.

So if you dont want to transgress (word from the Quran) dont get involved in domestic violence it is not a must to be involved in violating women to be called a man! Be a man and dont behave like a neanderthal! The bill is simply to keep men as humans and not transgress! Read the bill within context

The quran doesn't punish the perpetrator of domestic violence by depriving him of his property. so what are you invoking the quran here for?

I have made bold and underlined the important words which none of you wish to see either coz you dont trust the courts or because you feel like playing the victim card!

Playing the victim? Oh no that is the womans specialty, men are obviously evil and should be deprived of all their rights unless women approve.

State can punish its citizens for behaving less humanly and punish them in the hope to civilize them!

its like asking a child to behave or else his toy will be taken away

Some children never grow up and the need to apply the same rules just shows how childish some people are and how materialistic! You lot are worried about things being taken away from people who are violent to women without considering the violence the women in our nation have to suffer!

So ur admitting that such laws are attacking the basic rights but ur justifying it on grounds that it has the right to control our behavior,make it more "humane", well thats a BAD justification.That sounds like a totalitarian state, complete with moral policing.The state cannot play god like this, it cannot deprive the people of their basic rights, domestic violence or no domestic violence.

They fear the thought of women being equal

Well modern feminists talk a lot about equality, but in reality its just thinly disguised misandry.

 

[Dubious]

It is quite clear form the text that if it is established that he has done "violence" or is likely to commit violence which he fails to disprove, he stands to loose his property.(If you read the protection order and residence order, then this fact is undeniable.)

so you are saying let him do violence and never punish him?

he state has no right to take property from its owner and give it to another.

The "other" happens to be the one he did NIKKAH with...a CONTRACT which says he will be her PROTECTOR/ PROVIDER/ CARE TAKER....not her abuser!
In MANY cases the "other" happens to be the same women who bore his kids for 9 mths in her ...the same woman who went through labour and the same woman who raised his kids....
In MANY cases this "other" you soo badly want to strip any rights off (rights which ALLAH gave - rights to be protected) could be your own sister, cousin, niece, future daughter...unless they are not women or deserve the same just coz they carry 2 "X" chromosome...Please dont change your stand if your women get abused or thrown out of the house.

And please dont consider me mean for using "YOUR WOMEN" because apparently if "OTHER WOMEN" mean nothing for you, I would expect the same for "YOUR" women!

Just because he has done some violence

So violence against women is acceptable? She just has to suck it up and live with it coz its your culture? Or coz men isnt civilized enough to be called human?

Do you know what violence is?

thats simply wrong and unjust

But violence against women is right and just? THAT is really disgusting thoughts...Who on earth brought you up? I hope it wasnt a woman! kindly do seek treatment!!

minor offense like mental torture

If you call mental torture "minor offence" then why on earth is it used by the army? Strong brave men who fall to mental torture must be shameful?!

It is because the brain "JUST" HAPPENS to be the powerhouse of the whole body...Good god child! Go seek help!

wife can complain to the court and divorce declared between them, in case of major beating or bodily injury, in addition to divorce, some punishment will have to be imposed on the perpetrator(s) like jail terms.

So going to jail/ getting a criminal record is better than loosing your home? Impressive!

In case of heinous crimes like so called honor killings or acid attacks, harsh punishments must be imposed or the offenders without any exceptions.Having said that you still cannot deprive them of their property, that is simply wrong. And yes its unislamic too.Islam doesn't allow driving people off their property for committing domestic violence.

But it is ok to deprive the wife of her rights to live in a house? You do know that many a times, it is less to do with violence and more to do with trying to get her property....yes women can own things "given" to them by their parents....Women SHOULD also own every car, sofa, table, bed and whatever she brings, how dare the men use them and still inflict violence on the woman who brought all that stuff to his barren home!

A man who inflicts violence on a woman deserves no form of mercy! Esp if that woman happens to be the mother of his children! It has a series of effects to the mother and the children ...spoiling 2 generations is A GRAVE MISTAKE and you are talking about what is unislamic? It is unislamic to do ANY form of VIOLENCE against ANY woman! START WITH THAT!

As for him being kicked out of the house, please read the bill and the terms and conditions that leads to that...

The quran doesn't punish the perpetrator of domestic violence by depriving him of his property. so what are you invoking the quran here for?

I am telling you the QURAN doesnt say beat women ....so why are you supporting a violator and crying on his behalf when he inflicted violence on his own accord ...it is his sin which no one but he should pay for!

The Quran doesnt say look away from the oppressed...it includes the woman being "oppressed" under domestic violence you can look the tafseer!

Playing the victim? Oh no that is the womans specialty, men are obviously evil and should be deprived of all their rights unless women approve.

Just look at your phobia and whatever you have said so far....You have jumped the "if" you have ignored the "investigation" bit...

If you have a problem with the justice system that "investigation" wont be legit then it is not the woman protection bill you are having a problem with but EVERY LAW in the parliament should give you a stomachache!

So ur admitting that such laws are attacking the basic rights but ur justifying it on grounds that it has the right to control our behavior,make it more "humane", well thats a BAD justification.That sounds like a totalitarian state, complete with moral policing.The state cannot play god like this, it cannot deprive the people of their basic rights, domestic violence or no domestic violence.

Exactly how did you conclude that from what I said? What are you smoking? EGO?

How are they attacking your basic rights when you feel it is ok to abuse women? And anyone abusing women should be dealt with extreme mercy so much that he shouldnt be punished or threatened to behave - like how many men try to control their women - through threats but when tables are turned the guy becomes a bechara?

Houses are not god given so I am not sure why you are invoking god into this!

If to house a human was a basic right, our govt is the one depriving the poor of Pakistan this basic rights! Get your basic facts right! To own a house is no basic right but to abuse, beat, torture another human being who happens to have 2 "X" chromosome is a violation of basic rights!

I watched a little bit of debate on this by the religious parties and it was depressing to see the kind of sick mentality these so called religious scholars possess. And to think they're placed in the care of our children's social and religious upbringing.

What kind of individuals would these backwards, bearded men of stone age bring up in our society, one must ask. They are so much in fear of the empowering of women, even a tiny bit, that they've taken to tv channels in droves to curb any such effort.

And their tv cohorts are obviously getting paid and enjoy the back and forth bickering on their shows for the ratings. I was telling the my wife that at this point the women must stick together and expose these lunatics. It would be safe to assume they treat their wives and daughter, sisters and mothers with utmost contempt and abuse.

I hope and pray the women in their lives come out and expose their domestic abuse by these men. So the people can see the reason why these men don't want any protection bill for the women to pass is because they consider them as their property and cannot see their slaves being released from their bandage.

I seriously feel sick about the thoughts of many people! Brainwashed from ego and fear of being treated as how they treat others!

Retarded people always forget Hazrat Khadijah....it was she who gave support to the prophet
they forget Hazrat Aisha, it was she who educated the women and told many of the hadith
they forget the numerous other Sahabi who were either warriors, educators or even scientist during their own time....But some men feel emasculated coz they literally do nothing but die of fear that someone will point out they have wronged a whole gender!

 

[Zibago]

I too disagree with punishment(not practical at all in our joint family system) law needs some tuning

 

[Zarvan]

Those people argueing on this very thread are actually the victims of that said equality!

Equality in "treatment" is understood...meaning be police, nice, compassionate and all to both....But when physiologically, psychologically, anatomically, morphological, and every other science screams out men and women ARE different, who are we to force them 100% equality?

I am not advocating you to go and start treating anyone less...But acknowledge the difference....Not so much as our laws which have somehow excluded women justice altogether and def not like Western laws where ex husbands have to beg repeatedly to just see their children!

Sure man made laws are what they are MAN MADE....they are bound to have flaws, the thing is realizing and FIXING the flaw not dwelling on it by ONLY acknowledging it!


1 the huge text is called emphasis...when I make it bold people miss it...but no one misses caps!

As for the problems you have not shown me any problem....MANY on this thread have hand picked out of context some words but totally taken out of context with phobia of some form following!
Ok I will go through your "fear" and show you how unreasonable you sound..

1st part of your "fear"


If you have read the bill there are a few things in it:

1) complaint

How long does our court take to even process a complaint?

2) issue of notice

Now if the guy is innocent then why wouldnt he come forward? And it is a simple test of exclusion which EVERY policeman has to do...He goes through the list of likely suspects and rules out whichever has an alibi or pulls in new suspects with motives...Howelse have crimes being investigated? Sure it is new to Pakistan but the rest of the world does follow this procedure of QUESTIONING A MAN oh the shocker!

If a notice is issued.....Unless you dont trust our courts (by that definition NO LAW/ BILL would satisfy you), it is the DUTY of the court to CHECK WHAT IS FILED (complaint)
INVESTIGATE (the shocker that men need to be investigated now not just women must be new and prob the main cause of the fear)

BEFORE the notice is issued....Now if there is reason to doubt the man ....EVERY COURT ON THE PLANET would ask the bloody man to come clean or rot in jail! I am just not sure which planet you people have been living on that this is news for you?!

The word sufficient apparently means there is a threshold set under which men dont need to pee in their pants....until and unless they are guilty!





Now what you are crying about when it comes to men you are "accusing" women to be guilty for merely just crying and assuming they would be automatically framing the men:



AND WHAT IF SHE IS TELLING THE TRUTH? Is it not good for her to have some place to go and seek justice?

THIS "argument" shows you have no trust in the legal system of Pakistan so your cry is not about the bill but about the system! Go raise fingers about the system not about the rights given to women!


Now you have a basic problem about the house ....it is fine if she is thrown out of the house but god forbid she be allowed in and to stay?

Again your brawl is with the system coz the bill states this will only be done in case of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE not if the girl starts crying...Well, your problem is also with Pakistani mindset, if some girl starts fighting with a man or crying on the street, some men will come as her "brother" while the same men do much worse to their own women....And the same men would be too scared to "brotherly interfere" if she were being paraded naked (as has been reported in villages)...Double standards? VERY MUCH!


So if you dont want to transgress (word from the Quran) dont get involved in domestic violence it is not a must to be involved in violating women to be called a man! Be a man and dont behave like a neanderthal! The bill is simply to keep men as humans and not transgress! Read the bill within context

I have made bold and underlined the important words which none of you wish to see either coz you dont trust the courts or because you feel like playing the victim card!

2ndly, if you fear for you life/ rights (which is sad you should be fearing when ALLAH gave the rights to women not when a bill comes up) then dont violate the rights of another!


State can punish its citizens for behaving less humanly and punish them in the hope to civilize them!

its like asking a child to behave or else his toy will be taken away

Some children never grow up and the need to apply the same rules just shows how childish some people are and how materialistic! You lot are worried about things being taken away from people who are violent to women without considering the violence the women in our nation have to suffer!


By you saying it doesnt make it crap but by you saying it contradicts the Quran, shows either you have no clue what Islam is about or you have no clue of the word contradiction!

you saying the law contradicts Islam means Islam actually asks women to be violated and get no form of justice....Kindly do get yourself checked coz my prophet never taught that so please dont even start!

It's not that simple and you are coming up most pathetic and childish points. Yes it's not in accordance with Quran and Sunnah and will make women life more hell

 

[Dubious]

most pathetic and childish points.

Was I the one who said that it "CONTRADICTS" Islam?

Now please tell me / show me how!
You claimed it so prove it! Babbling or echoing the sayings of your Mullah doesnt make it real!

Show me where in Islam it says women deserve no rights, women should be abused and no form of justice should be allowed to them! Prove these for me or keep your pathetic and childish whims between you and your Mullah who cant give you basic reasoning!

it's not in accordance with Quran and Sunnah and will make women life more hell

Again you babbling does not make it fact! Either prove it or go away!