Clearing the air on Pakistani Sikhs

[Omar1984]

the indian thinks his wife's opinion represents the views of a whole community

 

[FKPcamper]

My post was not restricted to Sikhs either, it just talked about the minorities in Pakistan. I was talking generally about the minorities in Pakistan. So let us stick to your statement of excluding personalities related to politics/showbiz/defense.



It is part of the public sector, it is a position earned on merit, it is not a political position (unless you're talking about the Minister of Finance himself, all other positions in the Ministry of Finance are apolitical). So you're wrong.

Read doctor09's post, it has plenty of people you are looking for.

You have made this thread a dick measuring competition, & are not sincere about knowing how minorities fare in Pakistan.

you've got a bad habit of not reading a post before jumping to a conclusion. with respect to ministry of finance, please find my quote below which you rather conveniently chose to omit

"and even if it werent, it is still public sector - and can be part of propaganda (which can be the case in india too)"

have i made this a dick measuring competition? Maybe i have.. i have no qualms regarding that. Life is, harshly put, a dick measuring competition.

we compete in school, in the work place and in life in general.

So i put this question forward because i genuinely wanted to know if minorities in pakistan have progressed the way minorities in India have. On pure merit (which excludes figurehead/propaganda positions). Hence the exclusion of politics/defense/showbiz.

I wanted to know who the minority doctors/lawyers and business tycoons of pak were. People who have made in on pure merit and are renowned in pak. Other posters have highlighted minorities pursuing professional/business roles in pak. For that i thank them.

I dont understand why you are getting so worked up though. It was a simple enough question, and yet to insist on quibbling about minor details. If you can list prominent doctors,lawyers and businessmen in pak that come from minorities please do so and i will be most grateful. Otherwise, thank you for your time.

---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

the indian thinks his wife's opinion represents the views of a whole community

didnt actually say that anywhere in my post actually...i offered the opinion of my wife and her family.

please note the use of the word opinion. It is meant to highlight the fact that I am not laying claim to my statements being fact.

Hope that is a simple enough explanation. Let me know if you are still confused.

 

[Omar1984]

 

[livingdead]

i could choose to reply to this with "my pak sikh wife and her family hate pakistanis because of the intolerance shown towards them.. and they hate all muslims"

but i wont... we all have "friends" who conveniently support the point we want to make.. lets not stoop to that level

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------



first off, didnt make a statement. it clearly states that i am offering an opinion. statistics have their place in society but are easily malleable... personal experiences do help in that sense

I have no problem with your personal experience, but you started arguing and generalizing about others, and there are equal number of people here who will give you opposite personal experience(real or fake).
I have no doubt about what you feel is what you wrote, but perhaps you should have stopped at that.

 

[FKPcamper]

I have no problem with your personal experience, but you started arguing and generalizing about others, and there are equal number of people here who will give you opposite personal experience(real or fake).
I have no doubt about what you feel is what you wrote, but perhaps you should have stopped at that.

not too sure where i generalized my opinion. Happy to discuss further if you can point out the specific instance where it allegedly occured.

 

[53fd]

But the Hudood ordinances are the ones that make Pakistan more of a theocracy. You guys got a separate country for the sake of your religion. Can you stop being insecure at least now?

What do you know about the Hudood ordinances?

There is a plenty of evidence that minorities are unfairly targeted by Hudood laws and extortion rings.

The Hudood ordinance does not deal with minorities, but with women's rights. The Hudood ordinance was revised & replaced by the Women's Protection Bill in 2006 by Musharraf.

To count its victims to balance of minority casualties is not right. I should point out here that even in the terrorist attacks, at least a few of them are targeted towards minorities; for example those against shia and sufi shrines.

Shia & Sufis fall under the realm of Islam, we are not the minorities, but the majority in Pakistan. By minorities, I am referring to Christians, Hindus, Parsis, Sikhs etc.

But you seem to be basing your argument that in India even rich minorities dont get housing on just a couple of cases. Ironically this would not even be in the news if those people were not rich and film personalities. I am not saying there is no bias. It is as significant as or as non-significant as it is in Pakistan.

I'm sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make here.

You are also right that religious people are perceived wrongly. I would say 'differently' is the word. People take a girl in a burqa as out-of-place as a topless South Indian brahmin in a lungi and a set of beads around his neck. But we have both the girl in the burqa and Veena Malik(for now) on the streets. But please be fair, if the job is that of a receptionist, we will prefer Veena Malik any day.

I have already said that diversity is understood & celebrated (if it does not go against India's secular values) in India better than Pakistan.

On the lighter side, come on mann, in your country even the President is accused of being an Indian spy.

No brother, Zardari does not have his loyalties with anyone but money. Hence the Mr 10%.

 

[53fd]

you've got a bad habit of not reading a post before jumping to a conclusion. with respect to ministry of finance, please find my quote below which you rather conveniently chose to omit

If read everything you wrote, you seem convinced it was a political position, because you used the word "& even if it weren't", meaning you didn't think it was an apolitical position.

have i made this a dick measuring competition? Maybe i have.. i have no qualms regarding that.

You shouldn't be making this forum a dick measuring competition when you clearly say in your opening post that you are giving "your/her two cents" creating this thread. Meaning it is your/her two cents, & might not have any basis with reality. You do not "clear the air on something" by making this thread a dick measuring competition, clearing the air is not done by making the thread a dick measuring competition. Understand???

So i put this question forward because i genuinely wanted to know if minorities in pakistan have progressed the way minorities in India have. On pure merit (which excludes figurehead/propaganda positions). Hence the exclusion of politics/defense/showbiz.

Already answered.

 

[rubyjackass]

I am extremely sorry for the error about Hudood Ordinances. I was under the belief that the blasphemy laws come under hudood ordinances. Apparently they are part of the Penal code itself. What I meant were these blasphemy laws. Thanks for pointing that out.

The term minorities does not apply just for religions. It applies, among others, for languages, ethnicities and in this case sects.

My point about bias in housing was that the situation is not that bad. You got your inputs from some newpaper article about some film personality having difficulty in finding a house in some locality.

 

[FKPcamper]

If read everything you wrote, you seem convinced it was a political position, because you used the word "& even if it weren't", meaning you didn't think it was an apolitical position.



You shouldn't be making this forum a dick measuring competition when you clearly say in your opening post that you are giving "your/her two cents" creating this thread. Meaning it is your/her two cents, & might not have any basis with reality. You do not "clear the air on something" by making this thread a dick measuring competition, clearing the air is not done by making the thread a dick measuring competition. Understand???



Already answered.

you havent actually.. yet to see some names from you. until then this question remains unanswered by you. let us establish that.

no point in quibbling about semantics and the use of the statement "even if it werent" - i put this in there as i wasnt 100% sure if it was a political role. My point however, remains

lastly, my 2 cents was how i started this post. i chose to then compare and contrast the fate of minorities in fields of merit in india vs. pakistan.

is that wrong? have i asked a question that is illegal? you seem more concerned with the title of the thread than actually answering the question.

if it was no big deal you would have come straight out and answered it instead of battling me on semantics.

in short, it started as a personal observation and morphed into what you crudely term a "dick measuring contest". If that's the case, so be it. I have no issues with it. But i would like an answer to the question

 

[53fd]

I am extremely sorry for the error about Hudood Ordinances. I was under the belief that the blasphemy laws come under hudood ordinances. Apparently they are part of the Penal code itself. What I meant were these blasphemy laws. Thanks for pointing that out.

Blasphemy Law is not targeted against religions, but is being used as a means of people attacking poor people, using it to resolve their personal feuds. 51% of the Blasphemy Law victims are Muslims, 26% are Ahmadis, 22% Christians. It is a barbaric law, & even Imran Khan has stood up to it, & hopefully we shall be seeing is scrapped out of Pakistan soon enough. Just like the caste system (& caste related violence & discrimination) is a bane on your society, the Blasphemy Law is a bane on our society (even though the situations aren't comparable).

The term minorities does not apply just for religions. It applies, among others, for languages, ethnicities and in this case sects.

I'm using it for religious minorities.

My point about bias in housing was that the situation is not that bad. You got your inputs from some newpaper article about some film personality having difficulty in finding a house in some locality.

While vegetarianism is the reason given for not giving Muslims housing in many places, in some neighborhoods of Mumbai & the Gujarat state, terrorism is the reason that is given. And btw, I've known personal examples in my family (my mom's brother & his family) as well that couldn't get housing in South Delhi. Just compare the Old Delhi to New Delhi and see the difference.

---------- Post added at 06:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 AM ----------

you havent actually.. yet to see some names from you. until then this question remains unanswered by you. let us establish that.

The names, along with their information has been given on this thread. Open your eyes if you want to see them.

Your questions have already been answered many times on this thread.

 

[Desert Fox]

I am married to a sikh girl who immigrated with her parents from Pakistan in the early 80s. Noticed a lot of back and forth on Pak Hindus and Sikhs so thought i'd offer my (her) 2 cents.

1) Pressure to Convert - This most DEFINITELY exists. It is lesser in the metros and even lesser in wealthier/more educated circles but it is prevalant.

2) Allegiance to Pakistan - This tends to be a factor of their success. If one is a successful business man etc, one tends to look more favourably upon the incumbent race/religion/political party.

3) Hate/Dislike for India - This is false. While most were and still are upset by Indira Gandhi's actions, there is generally no hate or disdain for India. It is also universally acknowledged by the community as the more tolerant of the 2 nations. An anectodal example is that they observed how no Sikh has ever been asked/pressured/forced to convert into Hinduism based on all the trips they have made to India.

just hoping to clear the air here. Bottom line is that they dont hate Pakistan/is or India/ns but generally acknowledge a higher degree of tolerance and religious freedom in India.

comments, experiences, feedback welcome

Sikhs living peacefully in Peshawar Pakistan:

 

[FKPcamper]

Blasphemy Law is not targeted against religions, but is being used as a means of people attacking poor people, using it to resolve their personal feuds. 51% of the Blasphemy Law victims are Muslims, 26% are Ahmadis, 22% Christians. It is a barbaric law, & even Imran Khan has stood up to it, & hopefully we shall be seeing is scrapped out of Pakistan soon enough. Just like the caste system (& caste related violence & discrimination) is a bane on your society, the Blasphemy Law is a bane on our society (even though the situations aren't comparable).



I'm using it for religious minorities.



While vegetarianism is the reason given for not giving Muslims housing in many places, in some neighborhoods of Mumbai & the Gujarat state, terrorism is the reason that is given. And btw, I've known personal examples in my family (my mom's brother & his family) as well that couldn't get housing in South Delhi. Just compare the Old Delhi to New Delhi and see the difference.

---------- Post added at 06:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 AM ----------



The names, along with their information has been given on this thread. Open your eyes if you want to see them.

Your questions have already been answered many times on this thread.

do they in any way look like prominent personalities to you? Because they dont to me. Its a random doctor and a random professional. Not that there is anything wrong with it. It just doesnt answer my question. I was looking for a "Deepak Perwani" or something.

No need to be rude I am not holding a gun to your head & forcing you to speak with me.

 

[Desert Fox]

Don't know if this has already been posted:

Long live Pakistan! Long live All Pakistanis of all religious and ethnic backgrounds!

 

[livingdead]

Blasphemy Law is not targeted against religions, but is being used as a means of people attacking poor people, using it to resolve their personal feuds. 51% of the Blasphemy Law victims are Muslims, 26% are Ahmadis, 22% Christians. It is a barbaric law, & even Imran Khan has stood up to it, & hopefully we shall be seeing is scrapped out of Pakistan soon enough. Just like the caste system (& caste related violence & discrimination) is a bane on your society, the Blasphemy Law is a bane on our society (even though the situations aren't comparable).

Caste based discrimination is illegal and there are strong laws in India to deal with that. You will attract higher punishment that others, if the caste angle is proved. Also govt has many schemes for positive discrimination.
Contrast that to the blasphemy law, which is a law made by govt. Which means the law discriminates the weak against strong.
We both are backward societies, but at least the law should be there to support weak and minority.

About muslims celebrities not getting house for rent, I concede it is something indian society should think about.

 

[53fd]

do they in any way look like prominent personalities to you? Because they dont to me. Its a random doctor and a random professional.

Do you know any prominent Pakistani doctor or professional? These are prominent professionals whether you want to agree with that or not.

Deepak Perwani is in showbiz, so it goes against your requirements of "excluding people from defense/politics/showbiz."