Chinese Weapons Reaching ‘Near-Parity’ with West

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

China already has advanced beyond Western standards for at least last 4 years apart from 1-2 Technology articles , China excels in the other technologies

 

[ahojunk]

China already has advanced beyond Western standards for at least last 4 years apart from 1-2 Technology articles , China excels in the other technologies

.
Nope, China still has some way to go.
Yes, China is ahead in some categories but still has lots of work to do.
The vast majority of Chinese members (if not all) will agree.

(PS. The Chinese mentality is very different to the other supa powas.)

 

[GS Zhou]

China is still a developing country. Many outdated defense equipment that designed in the Mao-era still in service in PLA today, e.g. the Type 59 MBT, J7 fighter, Type 051 destroyer, Type 033 submarine, etc. We even still have cavalryman today. So forget us please. We make no threats to others.

 

[Rain]

My personal input:

A couple of years ago I was in a conference where several scientists from US, Italy, Australia, China and Pakistan was gathered to discuss a variety of developments on material science, meta material etc,. One of the Chinese scientist presented some data on GMR, the western scientist were surprised by quality of the data. They were literally aghast with surprise.

Let's wake up to reality. Chinese are no more a reverse engineering country which produce low quality equipment. They are fast moving to new levels of excellence. It's only the biased who can't see this reality.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

You are confusing slave labour with forced research.

Most german technological innovation was done by private companies in Germany that operated on a capitalist economy no different from the US. The men and women who did the research were private employees and paid well, got patents, led good lifestyles. Many were Nazis though some were not.

How can one expotentiate stupidity and ignorance to infinity?

Answer: Simply by being an Indian-American!

LOL@ explaining to me about Nazi-German economy.

 

[schoolboy]

How can one expotentiate stupidity and ignorance to infinity?

Answer: Simply by being an Indian-American!

LOL@ explaining to me about Nazi-German economy.

Since when did personal attacks become a substitute for substantive content.

If you indeed are a non-immigrant German (which I doubt, seeing your style of posts) you'd do well to read up who manufactured most of Nazi Germany's weaponry - Porsche, Rheinmetal, Krupp, Henkel, Dornier, Daimler, Messerschmidt, long list there. None were state owned or administered - unlike in communist countries. All innovated based on the same old capitalist incentives - and all did well until Germany was dismembered at the end of the war - when most of these private companies had their shareholdings expropriated.

Hitler hated communism more than any other ideology.

People have a sad habit of knowing the least about their own history. Come back and post again when you learn some.

 

[Beast]

How can one expotentiate stupidity and ignorance to infinity?

Answer: Simply by being an Indian-American!

LOL@ explaining to me about Nazi-German economy.

He is a schoolboy. Don't be too harsh to him. Schoolboy lives in a ideal world. Everything is what Uncle Sam say will do

 

[Götterdämmerung]

Since when did personal attacks become a substitute for substantive content.

If you indeed are a non-immigrant German (which I doubt, seeing your style of posts) you'd do well to read up who manufactured most of Nazi Germany's weaponry - Porsche, Rheinmetal, Krupp, Henkel, Dornier, Daimler, Messerschmidt, long list there. None were state owned or administered - unlike in communist countries. All innovated based on the same old capitalist incentives - and all did well until Germany was dismembered at the end of the war - when most of these private companies had their shareholdings expropriated.

Hitler hated communism more than any other ideology.

People have a sad habit of knowing the least about their own history. Come back and post again when you learn some.

Stating the obvious is not a personal attack.

Yeah, the typical argument of a loser is questioning the ethnicity of the opponent. LOL

Why should I read up my own history that I know much better than you? Crazy and deluded poster, so typical!

All those privately owned companies were under the direct supervision of the state, in fact, all of them were heavily involved in the NSDAP, there was practically no separation of state and non-state conglomerates. But what would you know.

By the way, your "compatriot" was babbling about freedom, e.g. freedom of thought that according to him is the reason for being more creative and such. Yeah, there was a lot of freedom of thought under the Nazi regime, I guess.

People have a sad habit of knowing the least about their own history. Come back and post again when you learn some.

You talk about yourself? Congratulation!

 

[schoolboy]

Stating the obvious is not a personal attack.

Right so when you talk trash it's "the obvious". Good luck with that approach

All those privately owned companies were under the direct supervision of the state, in fact, all of them were heavily involved in the NSDAP, there was practically no seperation of state and non-state conglomerates.

As before the concept of state v private steering of innovation escapes you. You're also mixing up party control of the state with type of economic policy. They're sufficiently dissimilar that only someone with no background in economics would confuse one for the other.

A state run (or planned) economy - characteristic of the USSR and Warsaw-pact countries (but also in India and many other countries for many decades) is one where the state decides what products have to be developed, by when and then employ their own scientists and labour - willing and unwilling to do it. In most cases the state caps the personal upside as well with the net result being that nobody has any incentive to perform once the ideological commitment starts to weaken.

Capitalist economies leave the R&D to private persons in the belief that their profit motive and lack of stick will foster a better environment and produce faster and more advanced output.

During a war all countries will demand certain specifications for military hardware (dictated by their military). A communist planned economy will choose to do the R&D itself, a capitalist economy will leave it to private players. In this regard Nazi Germany was similar to wartime Britain rather than wartime USSR. The state had no control over the armaments companies other than to prescribe regulations for employment of slave labour, prohibit use of certain metals like Tungsten and report on their R&D on a constant basis.

I strongly recommend you read Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer before posting any more nonsense on this forum - assuming you know who that is.

You are free to continue your diatribe - all it will earn you is another report.

 

[SBUS-CXK]

Perhaps one day but based on public information parity seems far from likely at this moment.

Most Chinese military products are reverse engineered approximates with little or no proven operational record and no major operators outside China. US hardware is not only highly war-tested but in service with dozens of frontline countries. It's true their hardware is more expensive but they have correspondingly larger budgets.

Anyway quality of hardware is only good upto a point and what matters in wartime is training, tactics and C&C. The US spends a huge amount of money on this alone and that is quite hard to reverse engineer.



That's true but the thread is about military hardware, not subway stations.



I agree. Communist economic policy simply does not incentivize innovation as much as the US-style capitalist culture does. Innovation requires not only money but also the promise of more money and freedom from big brother standing behind your shoulder. As a matter of fact many technological advancements in the US have been by immigrants from ex-communist countries.



You are confusing slave labour with forced research.

Most german technological innovation was done by private companies in Germany that operated on a capitalist economy no different from the US. The men and women who did the research were private employees and paid well, got patents, led good lifestyles. Many were Nazis though some were not.

In my opinion, most countries in the world are not qualified to evaluate Chinese weapons.

China is the world's top 3 arms exporter. Similarly, China's arms exports cover almost all areas. Missiles, aircraft, tanks, warships, artillery. Including Saudi Arabia's recent unmanned attack aircraft. China's arms exports are very comprehensive.

China real weapons began to export is in the 1980-1988 years of the Iran - Iraq War. Then in 1988 the DF-3 ballistic missile exports to Saudi Arabia.

So... I find it interesting when I see some agricultural countries mocking Chinese weapons.

Let me see, when an agricultural country gets a design from France, an engine from the USA and a missile from Israel. About 30 years... Then LCA appears.

So, an agricultural country even get the best goods around the world, Still unable to produce powerful weapons.

Do you think LCA can beat J-7 or JF-17?

So my advice is to wait at least for India to enter world arms exports top 10... And then you talk about China's reverse engineering.

An agricultural country, even if it provided 7 free helicopters to Ecuador, but if 4 crash in a short period, it's of no value, don't you think?

 

[schoolboy]

As Russia has no objection selling Su-35 to China. Once the item belongs to China. China can do whatever China wants with it, including gift it to whoever.

That's a very naive understanding of weapons exports.

All big-ticket military hardware is subject to transfer to third party nations. Many countries even have laws on it. That is the reason countries like Jordan and Turkey still need US approval for sale of their older F16s to Pakistan.
This is a passage from an article re the F16 sale.

Another defence ministry official Rear Admiral Mukhtar Khan, however, said the US had so far not objected to the deal with Jordan, but under the current environment getting American approval for the sale, a mandatory requirement, would not be easy to manage.

You can also educate yourself with this

https://www.state.gov/t/pm/rsat/c14021.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272992.pdf - a declassified report that, amongst others, comments on Russian restrictions on third party sales and how China avoided those by reverse-engineering

Chinese interest in the Su-35 is, going by past experience, limited to reverse engineering the jet - a commendable feat in itself if accomplished. Sale of that reverse engineered jet is not prohibited but there's no legal way China can onward sell Russian arms to Pakistan (or any other country) without prior Russian approval.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

Right so when you talk trash it's "the obvious". Good luck with that approach



As before the concept of state v private steering of innovation escapes you. You're also mixing up party control of the state with type of economic policy. They're sufficiently dissimilar that only someone with no background in economics would confuse one for the other.

A state run (or planned) economy - characteristic of the USSR and Warsaw-pact countries (but also in India and many other countries for many decades) is one where the state decides what products have to be developed, by when and then employ their own scientists and labour - willing and unwilling to do it. In most cases the state caps the personal upside as well with the net result being that nobody has any incentive to perform once the ideological commitment starts to weaken.

Capitalist economies leave the R&D to private persons in the belief that their profit motive and lack of stick will foster a better environment and produce faster and more advanced output.

During a war all countries will demand certain specifications for military hardware (dictated by their military). A communist planned economy will choose to do the R&D itself, a capitalist economy will leave it to private players. In this regard Nazi Germany was similar to wartime Britain rather than wartime USSR. The state had no control over the armaments companies other than to prescribe regulations for employment of slave labour, prohibit use of certain metals like Tungsten and report on their R&D on a constant basis.

I strongly recommend you read Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer before posting any more nonsense on this forum - assuming you know who that is.

You are free to continue your diatribe - all it will earn you is another report.

I strongly recommend you to learn German before you pull more stuffs from your behind.

I also strongly recommend you to learn more about the Chinese economy before you display more of your stupidity!

 

[Baybars Han]

Never say never, in USA everything is so expensive. Entry level welders charge government $100 an hour for war ship, the pentagon even paid some janitors $5000 a month. China built 22000 km high speed rail network within 9 years, in USA even a small new bridge is celebrated, how long does it take and how much it costs for a SINGLE New York metro station Fulton Center - that made national news, 14 years and 1.4 billion. In China, whole brand new metro LINES pop up in each city every year and with half the cost.

Chinese people came from an humble beginning, but they are smart and work hard, after 100 years of struggle, we finally found a way that works. What could those western engineers do that Chinese counterparts cannot do, costing less.

Reality on the ground is you get things done in China quicker, faster with a third fraction of cost, people willing to worker longer and harder to better themselves, not relying on government handouts. For the same amount of work, you are not competitive at all, thus the bullshit on currency manipulation, IP rights.

And China is still a developing country after 30 years growth, still advancing every day, with the single minded focus to return to the past glory.

He's a slave mentality. He thinks everything west do is the best. He dont know that the west has been strong for only the last 3-400 years after the Romans(a long time). I cant see where Kundura is from but I'm assuming India.

 

[schoolboy]

So... I find it interesting when I see some agricultural countries mocking Chinese weapons.
Let me see, when an agricultural country gets a design from France, an engine from the USA and a missile from israel. About 30 years... Then LCA appears.

I find it funny that Chinese get so sensitive about reverse engineering (a polite euphemism for IPR theft).

It's a good skill and I admire Chinese ability to do so.

The difference is that we (India) are stupid enough to go through the legal means of doing it by asking first for domestic production, then for licence, then ToT - but we'll get there - as we have with the Arjun and the GSLV. China simply doesn't care about restrictions on reverse engineering - and good for China - but it also means that only cash starved countries like Russia will agree to sell sophisticated arms to China. It also means that many consumers will forgo importing these products for fear of irritating the original manufacturer (70% of chinese arms exports is to Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma).

 

[SBUS-CXK]

I find it funny that Chinese get so sensitive about reverse engineering (a polite euphemism for IPR theft).

It's a good skill and I admire Chinese ability to do so.

The difference is that we (India) are stupid enough to go through the legal means of doing it by asking first for domestic production, then for licence, then ToT - but we'll get there - as we have with the Arjun and the GSLV. China simply doesn't care about restrictions on reverse engineering - and good for China - but it also means that only cash starved countries like Russia will agree to sell sophisticated arms to China. It also means that many consumers will forgo importing these products for fear of irritating the original manufacturer (70% of chinese arms exports is to Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma).

No, I don't feel sensitive. I just remind you.

Wait for India to enter the world's arms exports top 10. then you talk about China's reverse engineering, this is more appropriate.

When India used French design drawings, the USA engine, the Israeli missile then "make" LCA. I don't think it can beat J-7 or JF-17. do you think?

Unfortunately, NATO member Turkey copy Chinese WS-2 rocket launcher. The news disappointed you, Isn't it?

http://www.bestchinanews.com/Military/3593.html

Oh, Turkey is much smarter than Ecuador.