China's Largest Rocket CZ-5 ... Maiden Launch 20:42 November 3, 2016!

[Jlaw]

LOL

What a load of crap. Why do we even need international treaties, when private companies can do whatever they want?



In other words, it's all legal to extract space sources if you have the mean to do it.

True. Look at all the treaties signed in the past and how it's broken when one nation has the power to do so. Treaties are good to buy some time.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

You do realise any Free Trade Pack are helping this world globalize commercial business. This is what China have been doing too just so you know.

I didn't know that Chinese companies can set up rules that would render the sovereignty of trading partners obsolete.

 

[jhungary]

I didn't know that Chinese companies can set up rules that would render the sovereignty of trading partners obsolete.

dude, do you know how many Chinese Company set up shop in other country to evade tax?

Anyway, this topic is not about free trade, the Outer Space Treaty exempted all private parties, it said so in the treaty itself, if you have a problem with that, you probably need to deal with it. keep Whining how "Unfair" it is does not matter.

If China can do it, you can ask Jack Ma and Li Ka-Shing to send someone to the moon and mine the resource there, just as Bready Branson and SpaceX if they can, I don't really care what you think is just.

True. Look at all the treaties signed in the past and how it's broken when one nation has the power to do so. Treaties are good to buy some time.

Indeed, I too want China break the treaty, so US can send their astronauts to the moon and colonize it immediately.

The US have already had plans and know what to do in case of colonizing the moon. They have done extensive research on the moon to know where to build the colony and how to build it to withstand the soil strength and radiation, where to put the Solar Power plants as well as nuclear fission plants, the effect of lunar night, and also the skill to land and construct in space, how to transport material on the moon surface and etc. The only thing they need is the order to go and maybe about 3 to 6 months time to retrofit the 3 space shuttles.

On the other hand, China still new to the moon race, in fact, the Chinese have not even had a manned moon flight, it would take YEARS, if not decades for China to gather enough data to fill in the blanks on how to colonize the moon, by then the US would already be decade ahead of the colonization.

Or maybe the US should break the treaty now, before the Chinese even learn the skill of "precise landing".....

 

[Anders]

 

[Genesis]

Considering that China already doing things that can be considered as illegal under international law, the Chinese government will likely break the "Outer Space treaty" and would likely trigger a space race for mining and putting weapons into space.

Don't worry, seeing as a lot of our buddies can't even build a ship right, you won't even get to the moon or space. Can't threaten you in space if you can't reach space.

My advise is baseball, Americans play it, and if you get a great pitcher you can throw something up there.

Keep anti-China on the earth, we will go to Moon.

just ignore, maybe if nobody responds he'll go away. Well, at least one can hope.

 

[name]

[QUOTE = "Genesis, post: 7933582, thành viên: 145.590"]


chỉ cần bỏ qua, có lẽ nếu không ai trả lời, ông sẽ bỏ đi. Vâng, ít nhất người ta có thể hy vọng. [/ QUOTE]

but propaganda and misinformation

Don't worry, seeing as a lot of our buddies can't even build a ship right, you won't even get to the moon or space. Can't threaten you in space if you can't reach space.

My advise is baseball, Americans play it, and if you get a great pitcher you can throw something up there.


just ignore, maybe if nobody responds he'll go away. Well, at least one can hope.

but propaganda and misinformation

 

[Brainsucker]

how do you confirm/define the "Nationality" of a company? Take Virgin Galactic as an example.

The company chairman is British (Richard Branson) The company parental group (Virgin Group) HQ at London, UK, the group (Virgin Galactic) HQ at Pasadena, California, however, the company registration is in Babados.

Tell me, which country does Virgin Galactic fall on? International Treaty can only cover state, with todays company are almost all multinational.

Jhungary, yes. Virgin Galactic is a multi national corporation. But still, those countries are the UN members and must obey the UN charter. So they still have to obey the UN charter. Unless this Virgin Galactic HQ is in a no man island in Pacific Ocean and their bosses are not the citizen of any nationality, that is something else.

Private Corporation must obey the state rule, aren't they?

So Virgin Group HQ is in London, they have to obey British rule, and Britain is a UN member, Virgin Galactic HQ is in California, and they must obey US rule, and US is a UN member. Unless this trick is made by US to cheat the UN charter for their own gain, then these private corporations still have to obey the UN Charter.

 

[jhungary]

Jhungary, yes. Virgin Galactic is a multi national corporation. But still, those countries are the UN members and must obey the UN charter. So they still have to obey the UN charter. Unless this Virgin Galactic HQ is in a no man island in Pacific Ocean and their bosses are not the citizen of any nationality, that is something else.

Private Corporation must obey the state rule, aren't they?

So Virgin Group HQ is in London, they have to obey British rule, and Britain is a UN member, Virgin Galactic HQ is in California, and they must obey US rule, and US is a UN member. Unless this trick is made by US to cheat the UN charter for their own gain, then these private corporations still have to obey the UN Charter.

The problem is not how the Company located, the question in the treaty is that it clearly defined "State" actor and it did not declare the treaty would also be including "Non-State" actor.

Let's recap that part.

Commends the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies, the text of which is annexed to the present resolution;

Resolution 2222 (XXI)
Outer Space Treaty

Solemnly declares that in the exploration and use of outer space States should be guided by the following principles:

3. Outer space and celestial bodies are not subject to national appropriation by claim of sovereignty, by means of use or occupation, or by any other means.

resolution 1962 (XVIII)
Legal Principles

Technically speaking, had ISIS have a space program, they can fly into the moon and extract any material and they are not bounded by the Outer Space Treaty, the treaty only applies to the member of the state that sign into it.

The reason behind this "Grey-Area" can be only be that the treaty is quite old and they were not designed where a time space travel felt into commercial category. The exclusion of non-state party (Which acknowledged on point 5 of resolution 1962) which declared

5. States bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, whether carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried on in conformity with the principles set forth in the present Declaration. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the State concerned. When activities are carried on in outer space by an international organization, responsibility for compliance with the principles set forth in this Declaration shall be borne by the international organization and by the States participating in it.

Which bounded only national activities put forth for non-governmental bodies, but did not bound the non-national activities (as Private Company does not represent that nation) into the treaty. Hence, the treaty does not limit commercial space flight, only activities of state actor (or national activities as said in the treaty)

Another reason is that company can register their business registration basically every now. And it would be quite easy for a company to register in a location that did not sign this treaty and for further appropriation of the space, which would have by passed the treaty anyway. Hence I guess this is the reason why this law has not been amended.

Simply saying Virgin Atlantic would simply registered themselves in Malta by opening up an office there and base every paperwork off from Malta while every launch work and physical work still base out of the US, and Malta is not a party signed into this treaty, and thus, this bit could technically negate the treaty even if the treaty is amended to include non-state actor

As I said, this is actually a fair deal, anyone can have a space program, simply they were opened to everyone but the government, and if Chinese Company magnate like Jack Ma or Li Ka-Shing want to have a go with the space, they are more than welcome for it too.

 

[Brainsucker]

The problem is not how the Company located, the question in the treaty is that it clearly defined "State" actor and it did not declare the treaty would also be including "Non-State" actor.

Let's recap that part.



Resolution 2222 (XXI)
Outer Space Treaty





resolution 1962 (XVIII)
Legal Principles

Technically speaking, had ISIS have a space program, they can fly into the moon and extract any material and they are not bounded by the Outer Space Treaty, the treaty only applies to the member of the state that sign into it.

The reason behind this "Grey-Area" can be only be that the treaty is quite old and they were not designed where a time space travel felt into commercial category. The exclusion of non-state party (Which acknowledged on point 5 of resolution 1962) which declared



Which bounded only national activities put forth for non-governmental bodies, but did not bound the non-national activities (as Private Company does not represent that nation) into the treaty. Hence, the treaty does not limit commercial space flight, only activities of state actor (or national activities as said in the treaty)

Another reason is that company can register their business registration basically every now. And it would be quite easy for a company to register in a location that did not sign this treaty and for further appropriation of the space, which would have by passed the treaty anyway. Hence I guess this is the reason why this law has not been amended.

Simply saying Virgin Atlantic would simply registered themselves in Malta by opening up an office there and base every paperwork off from Malta while every launch work and physical work still base out of the US, and Malta is not a party signed into this treaty, and thus, this bit could technically negate the treaty even if the treaty is amended to include non-state actor

As I said, this is actually a fair deal, anyone can have a space program, simply they were opened to everyone but the government, and if Chinese Company magnate like Jack Ma or Li Ka-Shing want to have a go with the space, they are more than welcome for it too.

Then maybe China and US private corporation can work together and colonize Moon and Mars. That's better, rather than the exploration program got hindrance by the cold war politic like what happen until now

 

[jhungary]

Then maybe China and US private corporation can work together and colonize Moon and Mars. That's better, rather than the exploration program got hindrance by the cold war politic like what happen until now

In a perfect world, yes, but unfortunately, this world is not perfect.

If I remember correctly, Back when SpaceX was still a novice company back in 2001/2002, Elon Musk went to Russia to source partnership and technology with ISC Kosmotras for it's "Falcon" series spacecraft. The Russian, according to Musk best friend, Spat on Musk and their proposal and basically shown them the door.......(Don't know if that was true, but this is what Musk Friend said)

A years later, with the company grow to a certain point, Musk went back to Russia to look for some rocket for used for ICBM with a former NASA engineer, this time he has not been spat on, but was offered 8 millions for a Russian Rocket (Which average price at that time is around 3 million)

So after being spat on, and rip off, Musk said enough of international cooperation and it went to design their own rocket in house, of course with some help with NASA....

 

[Brainsucker]

In a perfect world, yes, but unfortunately, this world is not perfect.

If I remember correctly, Back when SpaceX was still a novice company back in 2001/2002, Elon Musk went to Russia to source partnership and technology with ISC Kosmotras for it's "Falcon" series spacecraft. The Russian, according to Musk best friend, Spat on Musk and their proposal and basically shown them the door.......(Don't know if that was true, but this is what Musk Friend said)

A years later, with the company grow to a certain point, Musk went back to Russia to look for some rocket for used for ICBM with a former NASA engineer, this time he has not been spat on, but was offered 8 millions for a Russian Rocket (Which average price at that time is around 3 million)

So after being spat on, and rip off, Musk said enough of international cooperation and it went to design their own rocket in house, of course with some help with NASA....

Don't worry, there are a lot of NASA scientists want to cooperate with CNSA scientists. The only problem is the politic of the two countries. Plus, there are a lot of rich people in both countries. So I think without those problematic politic, there won't be any problem for them to cooperate.

Unless..., of course. You're PRC citizen (from what I look at your flag, unless you're false flager), you want to spit a western business man, like what Russia did to Musk?

 

[jhungary]

Don't worry, there are a lot of NASA scientists want to cooperate with CNSA scientists. The only problem is the politic of the two countries. Plus, there are a lot of rich people in both countries. So I think without those problematic politic, there won't be any problem for them to cooperate.

Unless..., of course. You're PRC citizen (from what I look at your flag, unless you're false flager), you want to spit a western business man, like what Russia did to Musk?

the question is, why?

When you go do a JV with some other company, there are only 2 thing you need. It's Either Money or Skill/Technology. You need input from both side to become a joint venture. Hence it was called "joint" in the first place.

I don't know about how NASA scientist want to work with CNSA scientist, but I don't see what CNSA can bring onto the table? All NASA mission are not really in the league with CNSA, and what CNSA can input is honestly not quite a lot. In term of space technology, NASA are miles ahead on benchmark with Lunar Module, Space Shuttle and Space Probe all already been there and done that, while the CNSA is still on their first Moon mission, without a functioning lunar module.

At current stage, CNSA could bring nothing on the table to NASA shall the two organisation put a joint venture. It will be NASA passing down Scientific Research Result to the Chinese.

Money wise, NASA is not exactly money strapped so they have some wiggle room for budget. At this point, I don't see how a JV between NASA and CNSA would benefit the American. unless it is some kind of good will mission. I don't see a JV between the two is coming anytime soon.

 

[Brainsucker]

the question is, why?

When you go do a JV with some other company, there are only 2 thing you need. It's Either Money or Skill/Technology. You need input from both side to become a joint venture. Hence it was called "joint" in the first place.

I don't know about how NASA scientist want to work with CNSA scientist, but I don't see what CNSA can bring onto the table? All NASA mission are not really in the league with CNSA, and what CNSA can input is honestly not quite a lot. In term of space technology, NASA are miles ahead on benchmark with Lunar Module, Space Shuttle and Space Probe all already been there and done that, while the CNSA is still on their first Moon mission, without a functioning lunar module.

At current stage, CNSA could bring nothing on the table to NASA shall the two organisation put a joint venture. It will be NASA passing down Scientific Research Result to the Chinese.

Money wise, NASA is not exactly money strapped so they have some wiggle room for budget. At this point, I don't see how a JV between NASA and CNSA would benefit the American. unless it is some kind of good will mission. I don't see a JV between the two is coming anytime soon.

It seems NASA doesn't agree with you. They are scientists, not politician. The only thing that prevent the cooperation between CNSA and NASA is the American Government politic.

Why NASA and China don't work together - Tech Insider

NASA Chief Says US Could Cooperate with China in Space | NASA & Human Spaceflight | United States, China & Space Race

US scientists boycott Nasa conference over China ban | Science | The Guardian

NASA has no choice but to refuse China’s request for help on a new space station - Quartz

 

[jhungary]

It seems NASA doesn't agree with you. They are scientists, not politician. The only thing that prevent the cooperation between CNSA and NASA is the American Government politic.

Why NASA and China don't work together - Tech Insider

NASA Chief Says US Could Cooperate with China in Space | NASA & Human Spaceflight | United States, China & Space Race

US scientists boycott Nasa conference over China ban | Science | The Guardian

NASA has no choice but to refuse China’s request for help on a new space station - Quartz

Well, that was what I was saying actually.

US will not want to transfer sensitive tech and data to China, to be honest, who would? Geo-politic aside, China til now have achieve so little for their space program. The effective result is 10 astronauts and satellite launch as well as a failed Mars Probe launch. There are really not much China can offer to current NASA mission, which focus on deep space exploring and Mars mission, even the ban was not there to begin with. I means, would you hand out your hard earn detail for free?

Then there are military implication on the issue as well. Any space tech can effectively turn into weaponry, précising landing (the technique that required to land on a specific spot on moon) can be potentially used to calculation guiding orbits for last stage of ICBM, propulsion technique can be potentially used in military jet engine and rocket engine. Any type of moon and space data can mean potential harm to national security.

That is why as I said in my last post, I don't know how much NASA scientist want to work with Chinese Scientist, but this is not happening, most of the point you raise on your post made good movie, in fact, they already did, but I don't see why NASA would need to use Chinese mars probe to help rescue the stranded astronauts when themselves have a lot of probe orbiting the red planet, let alone Chinese did not actually have a mars probe orbiting mars in the first place.

This is just like why US and EU did not share their detail with make commercial jet, by all account they should share the design flaw and accidental data to the Chinese or Japanese so they can make a better jet without paying the ultimate price. But this won't happen even by all account this is what humanity should be. I understand you want to live in a harmony world, but business has always be merciless, and when there are not much (I would not say nothing) China could bring on the table, and couple to the fact that most of these tech can be use in military science. Which basically make it impossible.

 

[Brainsucker]

Well, that was what I was saying actually.

US will not want to transfer sensitive tech and data to China, to be honest, who would? Geo-politic aside, China til now have achieve so little for their space program. The effective result is 10 astronauts and satellite launch as well as a failed Mars Probe launch. There are really not much China can offer to current NASA mission, which focus on deep space exploring and Mars mission, even the ban was not there to begin with. I means, would you hand out your hard earn detail for free?

Then there are military implication on the issue as well. Any space tech can effectively turn into weaponry, précising landing (the technique that required to land on a specific spot on moon) can be potentially used to calculation guiding orbits for last stage of ICBM, propulsion technique can be potentially used in military jet engine and rocket engine. Any type of moon and space data can mean potential harm to national security.

That is why as I said in my last post, I don't know how much NASA scientist want to work with Chinese Scientist, but this is not happening, most of the point you raise on your post made good movie, in fact, they already did, but I don't see why NASA would need to use Chinese mars probe to help rescue the stranded astronauts when themselves have a lot of probe orbiting the red planet, let alone Chinese did not actually have a mars probe orbiting mars in the first place.

This is just like why US and EU did not share their detail with make commercial jet, by all account they should share the design flaw and accidental data to the Chinese or Japanese so they can make a better jet without paying the ultimate price. But this won't happen even by all account this is what humanity should be. I understand you want to live in a harmony world, but business has always be merciless, and when there are not much (I would not say nothing) China could bring on the table, and couple to the fact that most of these tech can be use in military science. Which basically make it impossible.

The reason why both can't cooperate is politic. NASA themselves think that cooperate with CNSA has the benefit for them too.