What's new

China’s falling prices are a more profound problem than U.S. inflation

F-22Raptor

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
16,980
Reaction score
3
Country
United States
Location
United States
The United States and China are the world’s two most important economic powers. But they face polar opposite economic problems.

The United States has struggled with rising consumer prices over the past 18 months, with inflation still considerably ahead of the Federal Reserve’s 2 percent target despite attempts to slow down spending and 3.2 percent year on year last month, according to data released Thursday.

China faces a different problem: Deflation. According to official statistics released Wednesday, consumer prices had fallen by 0.3 percent over the last year after being stagnant for months.

And while America has a startlingly tight labor market, with more job openings than out-of-work people, China is facing enormous unemployment problems. The unemployment rate for 16- to 24-year-olds hit a record 21 percent in June — though some experts believe it is actually even higher.

There is one significant similarity, though it doesn’t look good for Beijing. While China has a 5 percent official target for economic growth this year, that growth is year on year with 2022, a year when economic activity was severely limited by “zero covid” rules. Economists from Bloomberg News have said growth would look more like 3 percent under normal circumstances — not so far above the 2.5 percent that JPMorgan now predicts for the United States.

That slower rate would be well off-track for a country that was, pre-pandemic, a driver of global economic growth. And there are more worrying signs for China too, including declining international trade, spiraling government debt and domestic property investment.

On a global level, it is China that is the outlier rather than the United States. The inflation and job market woes seen in the United States are echoed across almost all major economies. Economists attribute this to government stimulus packages and structural unemployment during the pandemic, as well as increased spending after covid-19 subsided.

In the United States and elsewhere, this presents an immediate political problem. While President Biden has claimed that his “Bidenomics” is creating a “soft landing” by bringing down inflation without causing a spike in unemployment, polls show that ahead of the election many Americans are still feeling the pinch of higher prices and fear a recession.

The problems in China’s economy may also be a result of covid-19, but they are distinct — and perhaps more drastic. The country’s stringent response to the pandemic — the “zero covid” policy that implemented mass lockdowns, testing, quarantine and border control — may have saved far more lives than the less organized efforts in the United States and elsewhere, but it ended abruptly and chaotically, negating many of its successes.

It may have left a far worse economic hangover. Writing in Foreign Affairs earlier this month, U.S. economic policy expert Adam Posen argued that what we are seeing now represented the “end of China’s economic miracle,” linking the strict covid-19 rules to a growing economic anxiety that causes people to hoard their money, despite low-interest rates, leading to deflation.

Economists have also tracked a huge decrease in foreign direct investment in China, likely both a result of covid-19 restrictions and economic gloom in the country but also the trade war initiated by the Trump administration against Beijing.

How bad could things get? One common point of comparison is Japan, another once-rising Asian economic power that caused major anxiety in Washington and Europe. Booming in the 1970s and 1980s, its bubble burst in the 1990s and the country entered decades of economic stagnation and deflation that effectively made its citizens poorer and its national debt more burdensome.

But China of 2023 is not the Japan of 30 years ago. China has a population of 1.4 billion, more than 10 times the size of Japan even now. When adjusted for purchasing power, its economy has been bigger than the United States since 2015. Japan’s was never more than half the United States’.

Moreover, Japan is a functioning, if imperfect, democracy. China is an autocracy that has become only more closed off over recent years. Even getting economic data is becoming more difficult, with the word “deflation” taboo in official language and an anti-espionage law making officials cautious of speaking to outside experts, even privately.

“You’ve got an economic slowdown that would worry any country, coupled with a China that always likes to put on a brave face to the world and a leadership that is particularly image-conscious,” Andrew Collier, managing director of Orient Capital Research in Hong Kong, toldthe Financial Times. “Put those three factors together and it’s the recipe for a very non-transparent economy.”

At the same time, there are persistent fears about China’s foreign policy intentions — President Xi Jinping has hinted at major action against the self-governing island of Taiwan, risking a global war that could drag the United States and others in. Just this week, The Washington Post broke the story of how China had infiltrated Japan’s defense networks.

Japan’s economic fall to earth was a peaceful affair. In a New York Times column last month, economist Paul Krugman argued that the country had actually handled its key economic problem — a demographic shift from a young to an elderly society — relatively well. China, another aging society, faces a similar problem. It may not handle it anywhere near as well.

“So, no, China isn’t likely to be the next Japan, economically speaking,” Krugman wrote. “It’s probably going to be worse.”

For the rest of the world, that makes China’s economy one to watch closely. Any turmoil in the country could spark unexpected consequences elsewhere in the world, both economically and politically. As Posen writes, for the United States it could well be an opportunity to put this economic rivalry to bed. At the least, China’s dreams of economically eclipsing the United States may be forever delayed.

 
. .
I think all these comparison on China with 1990s Japan and slipping into structural deflation is premature.

China is still a developing country with GDP per capita barely higher than the world's average. OTOH Japan back in the 1990s is already a fully developed country, with its nominal GDP per capita among the world's highest then, much higher than the US:

1691768944205.png



China's nominal to PPP ratio (basically the price level relative to the US) is around 0.6 in 2022:

1691769102238.png

OTOH Japan's current nominal to PPP ratio is around 1.9 at its peak in 1995:

1691769179371.png


After decades of deflation/currency depreciation, Japan's price level relative to the US has dropped from 1.9 in 1995 to about ~0.7-0.8 in recent years, on par with other developed countries like Germany and France. So deflation in Japan is more like 'normalization' of its price levels relative to the rest of the developed world.

OTOH, China's PPP ratio is around 0.6. How much 'cheaper' can it get?

In fact I still see China's inflation outpacing other developed countries in the medium term, as a shrinking labor supply pushes up wages and costs. Gone are the days when China has endless supply of cheap labor working in factories. Like the developed countries, it's natural that more of their youth wants to work in a cushy office job as the economy progresses.

The EIU also thinks that China will become pricier:

1691770138759.png

 
.
China is almost like Japan.

But Chinese government take measurement to stop the real estate price keeps going up.

What happened in China today is a small bubble burst.

The real estate market is sick, but it doesn't bring down the entire country's economy to collapse.
 
.
I think all these comparison on China with 1990s Japan and slipping into structural deflation is premature.

China is still a developing country with GDP per capita barely higher than the world's average. OTOH Japan back in the 1990s is already a fully developed country, with its nominal GDP per capita among the world's highest then, much higher than the US:

View attachment 945332


China's nominal to PPP ratio (basically the price level relative to the US) is around 0.6 in 2022:

View attachment 945333
OTOH Japan's current nominal to PPP ratio is around 1.9 at its peak in 1995:

View attachment 945334

After decades of deflation/currency depreciation, Japan's price level relative to the US has dropped from 1.9 in 1995 to about ~0.7-0.8 in recent years, on par with other developed countries like Germany and France. So deflation in Japan is more like 'normalization' of its price levels relative to the rest of the developed world.

OTOH, China's PPP ratio is around 0.6. How much 'cheaper' can it get?

In fact I still see China's inflation outpacing other developed countries in the medium term, as a shrinking labor supply pushes up wages and costs. Gone are the days when China has endless supply of cheap labor working in factories. Like the developed countries, it's natural that more of their youth wants to work in a cushy office job as the economy progresses.

The EIU also thinks that China will become pricier:

View attachment 945339

The EIU is massively underselling US growth though. They don’t have the US economy surpassing $30T until the 2030s when in reality it will happen in 2-3 years. The US government’s own economic projections are near $40T in 2033.
 
.
The EIU is massively underselling US growth though. They don’t have the US economy surpassing $30T until the 2030s when in reality it will happen in 2-3 years. The US government’s own economic projections are near $40T in 2033.

You mean this graph in the article I cited?

1691818359334.png


As seen above, GDP here is measured in constant 2022 prices, which means inflation is not factored in the projections. (The third graph simply factors in how much pricier China will get relative to the US in coming decades.)

Meanwhile the US government’s own economic projections (I'm assuming you're citing the CBO) are measured in current dollars, which means inflation is taken into account.

1691819303291.png


Assuming an average inflation rate of 2.5% from 2022 to 2033, inflation will push up GDP measured in 2033 current dollars to 1.025^11 = 1.31x of GDP measured in constant 2022 dollars.

$40T/1.31 = ~$30.5T

Sounds about right.
 
.
The EIU is massively underselling US growth though. They don’t have the US economy surpassing $30T until the 2030s when in reality it will happen in 2-3 years. The US government’s own economic projections are near $40T in 2033.

US growth?? Only 3 times in past 20 years US have clocked GDP growth rate of > 3%. One of those was after the covid recession.
 
.
It’s a good time to short Chinese e-commerce stocks like Alibaba or JD. It’s unlikely people will spend money in this economic situation.
 
.
You mean this graph in the article I cited?

View attachment 945401

As seen above, GDP here is measured in constant 2022 prices, which means inflation is not factored in the projections. (The third graph simply factors in how much pricier China will get relative to the US in coming decades.)

Meanwhile the US government’s own economic projections (I'm assuming you're citing the CBO) are measured in current dollars, which means inflation is taken into account.

View attachment 945403

Assuming an average inflation rate of 2.5% from 2022 to 2033, inflation will push up GDP measured in 2033 current dollars to 1.025^11 = 1.31x of GDP measured in constant 2022 dollars.

$40T/1.31 = ~$30.5T

Sounds about right.

I was referring to the third graph which factors in inflation. EIU is way off on US GDP
 
.
I was referring to the third graph which factors in inflation. EIU is way off on US GDP

The third graph doesn't factor in inflation for the US. It only factors in China's 'excess' inflation over the US.

Eg; US inflation is 2%, China's is 3%. They adjust only an additional 1% for China's figures, measured in 2022 US dollars.
 
.
My point is that deflation is conducive to industrial upgrading, and the key to China's future lies in industrial upgrading rather than the current economic data.

It is ridiculous to compare China with Japan. Japan does not have complete national sovereignty at all. Japan's failure lies in the complete failure of industrial upgrading.

After China completes the upgrading of the electric vehicle industry, aerospace and semiconductors are about to succeed. Then the Internet and cultural industries will start exporting.
 
.
First off :
a) This is the first quarter of a deflation in China - so the hype is way ahead of reality
b) all the assumptions about how bad inflation is based on societiles already very high per capita gdp and completely private economy. China is neither. So not sure whether deflation in china will play the same way.
For eg. most private companies may hesitate to invest when there is deflation as more product means more work for lesser margin. But public companies maybe ordered to take advantage of it and invest more. who knows ?
 
.
First off :
a) This is the first quarter of a deflation in China - so the hype is way ahead of reality
b) all the assumptions about how bad inflation is based on societiles already very high per capita gdp and completely private economy. China is neither. So not sure whether deflation in china will play the same way.
For eg. most private companies may hesitate to invest when there is deflation as more product means more work for lesser margin. But public companies maybe ordered to take advantage of it and invest more. who knows ?
Chinese SOE’s are already caught in a debt trap, i.e. they are borrowing to pay interest on existing loans.76% of the 29 Trillion USD corporate debt is held by Chinese SOE’s.
Plus SOE’s are less capital efficient compared to POE’s and so generate much lower returns on investment.


 
.
It will be an once in a life time blessing if China can use this opportunity to bring down the exorbitant housing price and then stabilise it.
 
. .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom