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China's Economy Is Running on Borrowed Money – and Time | Ruchir Sharma

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Most of China's debt is held by SOEs. This article argues that fixing the SOE debt may cost up to 25% of China's GDP.
http://www.reuters.com/article/china-debt-moodys-idUSL3N1872L0

According to the IMF, 55% of the corporate debt is owned by these SOEs, but they produce only 22% of the revenues.

The bigger problem with China is there really isn't much of a difference between SOEs and the govt.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...ina-total-soe-debt-rises-1-trillion-one-month


If the govt can simply transfer its debt to SOE balance sheets, then that creates different kind of hurdles in estimating the actual debt burden in China.

So you claim that most of the debt is in the non-financial enterprise, which is fine, but what if the govt has only been transferring its own debt into the non-financial enterprises?

Anyway, this is from another Chinese source.
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1013480.shtml
If majority of non-financial Enterprise's Debt is owned by Sate-owned Enterprise, then it should be much easier for China government to resolve the debt issue. Since government also owns all the main banks in China, under such scenario, government just needs give order if want to reduce debt.

The strategic role of SOE in China is not making revenue. Their role is to assist government to reach the strategy, including economic and geopolitical. In many cases, even they are in heavy deficit, SOEs are still forced to run. For instance, China's sate owned companies e.g. rail way, national grid, and telecommun, are forced to pump tremendous money into construction in those remote area. SOEs are not expecting any revenue from those area considering the amount of investment.
 
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Since you clarified that you didn't mean percentage nor absolute amount, but the rising speed of debt in your previous comment, then I said the rising speed of debt of US and UK back to 1930s was very high too. And also said the added absolute amount of debt of UK Japan and US were large because of welfare after they became a developed country.

This is not entirely accurate.

Look at the data here.
https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-by-year-compared-to-gdp-and-major-events-3306287

US debt grew because of recessions, not just because of welfare. It's most evident in the jump we see in 2009.
 
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If majority of non-financial Enterprise's Debt is owned by Sate-owned Enterprise, then it should be much easier for China government to resolve the debt issue. Since government also owns all the main banks in China, under such scenario, government just needs give order if want to reduce debt.

The strategic role of SOE in China is not making revenue. Their role is to assist government to reach the strategy, including economic and geopolitical. In many cases, even they are in heavy deficit, SOEs are still forced to run.

That's exactly it, my line of argument. The debt crisis isn't bad yet, it can be managed. But it depends on 'when' they start managing it. It doesn't look like it has started yet.

The govt has to balance out GDP growth and debt management. If the govt deleverages at the cost of growth, it can create political problems.
 
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That's exactly it, my line of argument. The debt crisis isn't bad yet, it can be managed. But it depends on 'when' they start managing it. It doesn't look like it has started yet.

The govt has to balance out GDP growth and debt management. If the govt deleverages at the cost of growth, it can create political problems.
The government has started debt management, but you can't expect the effect will take place right away. On the other hand, the debt owned by SOEs is not an urgent problem, at least to me. SOEs owe the money and Banks own the money. Both SOEs and Banks are owned by government. If government really wants to resolve the debt issue, just give the money from left hand to right hand. So why in rush?

And I don't understand why SOEs owe a lot of money to government is problematic. Government just can cancel the SOE's debt if government think its necessary. Its simple. China is not like US, in which FED is a privately-owned organization.
 
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The government has started debt management, but you can't expect the effect will take place right away. On the other hand, the debt owned by SOEs is not an urgent problem, at least to me. SOEs owe the money and Banks own the money. Both SOEs and Banks are owned by government. If government really wants to resolve the debt issue, just give the money from left hand to right hand. So why in rush?

And I don't understand why SOEs owe a lot of money to government is problematic. Government just can cancel the SOE's debt if government think its necessary. Its simple. China is not like US, in which FED is a privately-owned organization.

China has been writing off debt for years now.
http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...ite-off-usd-300-billion-in-bad-loans-2871751/

That won't solve the problem. You are using debt to generate revenue. If you write off debt, that's fine, but you still need more debt to create revenue, so writing off debt solves nothing if you can't generate revenue.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/how-much-bad-debt-can-china-absorb/

If you write off debt and generate more debt, then you are devaluing your currency. As the above article notes, you are not the US, nobody is going to buy the yuan as a reserve currency. China will enter a vicious cycle of debt and bail out, each time devaluing the currency as it happens.
 
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China has been writing off debt for years now.
http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...ite-off-usd-300-billion-in-bad-loans-2871751/

That won't solve the problem. You are using debt to generate revenue. If you write off debt, that's fine, but you still need more debt to create revenue, so writing off debt solves nothing if you can't generate revenue.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/04/how-much-bad-debt-can-china-absorb/

If you write off debt and generate more debt, then you are devaluing your currency. As the above article notes, you are not the US, nobody is going to buy the yuan as a reserve currency. China will enter a vicious cycle of debt and bail out, each time devaluing the currency as it happens.

Debt management was just carried out on those SOEs that government thinks is necessary.

Debt doesn't automatically generate revenue but it will automatically be counted into that year's GDP, but that generated debt won't be counted into next year's GDP. The interest or profit from the debt is considered as one of revenue, but not debt itself.

Manufacturing sectors will generate products regardless how much debt they owned. Whether writing off the debt or not for manufacturing enterprises will not prohibit them from production. And those production still will be counted into GDP. That's another reason why China government likes pumping money to manufacturing sectors not welfare.

Current RMB currency is determined by demands from international market, not domestic demands. Domestic inflation and international currency increase can happen at same time. For instance, the debt of China during years of 08-14 increased a lot (your third graph), meanwhile inflation in China over those years was significant, however the RMB value over dollar during that time period was steadily increasing not decreasing.

Since China is trying to internationalize the RMB, China has to learn to tolerate the certain degree of currency fluctuation.Otherwise China government can simply put a restricted currency like what they have done in 1990s - one dollar exchanges 8.4 RMB. Even now China likes devaluing RMB since China's economy is still strongly export driven. If US doesn't give much pressure on RMB devaluation, China really wants to go back to the currency in 1990s.
 
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The Achilles heel of Chinese economics isn't necessarily the current borrowing bubble but the monetary policy related to it. There are some things the Chinese simply don't "get, specifically: the importance of issuing debt abroad and reliably paying it back to firmly establish China's reserve currency status in combination with managing renminbi value. Without that skill set Chinese are missing a valuable buffer to cushion their economy through economic downturns.

Its a fair criticism...but in my opinion it only really starts to become an issue once China reaches per capita GDP of say 20k USD.

They are still a developing country with more domestic based concerns and challenged for a cpl decades at least....external forex hedging is something they are letting organic market economics dictate for now.

To make it more state influenced policy means enough of the finance dept can be deleveraged from their domestic engagements and priorities, which wont be available for quite some more time (few more decades like I said)
 
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Debt management was just carried out on those SOEs that government thinks is necessary.

Debt doesn't automatically generate revenue but it will automatically be counted into that year's GDP, but that generated debt won't be counted into next year's GDP. The interest or profit from the debt is considered as one of revenue, but not debt itself.

Manufacturing sectors will generate products regardless how much debt they owned. Whether writing off the debt or not for manufacturing enterprises will not prohibit them from production. And those production still will be counted into GDP. That's another reason why China government likes pumping money to manufacturing sectors not welfare.
One of the major problem faced by Chinese economy is its Over capacity.. Cutting this overcapacity is the first step of Supply side reforms.. Now China doing is nothing more than creating demand by lending money..
For example China produces 10 ton steel.. Actual demand is only 8 ton steel.. How you can sell extra 2 ton?? Lending money to local government for infrastructure/ housing loans for public etc..
But it creates some problems.. One is bubble formation and next is resource wastage.. China is using its leverage maximum.. The adjusted loan-to-deposit ratio, which includes a range of off-balance sheet items and is an indicator of the banking system’s ability to weather stress, climbed to 80 percent as of June 30, according to S&P Global Ratings. For some smaller lenders, the ratio has already topped 100 percent, S&P estimates.At the current pace, overall credit could surpass deposits on an adjusted basis within a few years -- a level that would give China little leeway to stave off financial turmoil, S&P says. That is China using its massively created wealth maximum.. That's why debt to GDP ratio is now $28 trillion.. If you think govt can write off these debts ( govt lend this to SOEs, local govt bodies), that will destabilize the banking sector.. How can you give the deposit back to the depositors ??
More you go forward like this, more problems are waiting... If you cut overcapacity or lending now,it will adversely affect your gdp.. But the problem is temporary.. Economy will stabilize and will start grow after sometime.. But if you postpone the much needed reforms, China will end up as an another Japan..
Chinese banks lend some $1.8 trillion to the public.. Adding another lending institutions it is saying that staggering $3 trillion pumped to the economy just last year.. This type of growth is not sustainable.. I am not saying 280% debt to GDP is a big problem.. But this type of growth model never works in an economy facing " OVERCAPACITY " problem.. What make sense injecting more money to manufacturing sector if you have overcapacity problem???
Current RMB currency is determined by demands from international market, not domestic demands. Domestic inflation and international currency increase can happen at same time. For instance, the debt of China during years of 08-14 increased a lot (your third graph), meanwhile inflation in China over those years was significant, however the RMB value over dollar during that time period was steadily increasing not decreasing.
Chinese currency is not a free floating currency like US dollar or Japanese Yen because still Central Bank intervene its valuation.. Between 08-14 Chinese Renminbi gains,why?? Because of two reasons.. One is huge trade surplus( more exports than import) & huge capital account surplus( net inflow+borrowing than net outflow+ crediting other nations).. If you have both of these , your currency value will increase.. But majority of this value increase is contained or manipulated by China using many interventions (for helping exports).. One is increasing forex reserves.. Second is crediting externally (thus reducing capital surplus).. That's China's reserves peaked $4 trillion in 2014.. But these trends also reversed.. Take a look at 2016.. Trade surplus decreasing steadily... Capital account deficit increased badly.. Almost $900 billion outflown in last year alone.. This capital flight looks good in Balance of Payment because it decreases liability.. But actually it is a very bad thing for a developing nation like China.. This capital outflow is because of one main reasons.. Investors no longer sees China as a good investment target.. That is why they are talking their wealth out of the country.. One major reason is Yuan devaluation.. Last year alone yuan depreciated 7%.. This is a vicious cycle.. Currency devaluation causes----> more capital out flow causes---> more currency devaluation.. Therefore central bank of China trying hard to stop devaluation of currency using forex reserves.. Reserves down from $4trillion to $3 trillion in just two years.. If you let Yuan free now, it is saying that it may devaluate upto 25%.. Trump is an added problem here.. If yun depreciate more ,trump will start a trade war stating China manipulating currency... So the problems are many in Chinese economy..

Since China is trying to internationalize the RMB, China has to learn to tolerate the certain degree of currency fluctuation.Otherwise China government can simply put a restricted currency like what they have done in 1990s - one dollar exchanges 8.4 RMB. Even now China likes devaluing RMB since China's economy is still strongly export driven. If US doesn't give much pressure on RMB devaluation, China really wants to go back to the currency in 1990s.
China is nowhere near to become a free currency or free capital market economy.. They still heavily control their currency ( now stopping devaluation).. They are now panickly controlling capital outflows..
 
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To be serious, anything related China that based at Indian sources turns to be insult to members here day by day.

The free cheap talks from some of the members here are just brainless based at strong willingnesss and sick mentalities that China's economy has serious problem not the realities or facts.

@Shotgunner51 @ahojunk

Please take care those incredible posts.
 
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How can we say China's economy is running on borrowed money? Which country is lending money to China?

China is a creditor nation, i.e. other countries owe her money. Officially US is still owing China about 1.2 trillion dollars. Not sure about the unofficial figure.
China is now building up her Sovereign Wealth Funds and doing FDI overseas focusing on OBOR countries.
https://defence.pk/threads/new-pivo...worlds-largest-sovereign-wealth-funds.455072/

It seems to me that China is setting up new SWF every now and then, when she feels like it.
To do that, you need money. China has lots of it. After all, China is a creditor nation. So is Hong Kong and Taiwan. Macao is probably too.

More info on the so-called debts of China. It is totally debunked here.
https://defence.pk/threads/asean-gd...-year-after-brexit.473899/page-2#post-9133841

Look at the companies China has acquired in the last few years:-
https://defence.pk/threads/china-global-m-a-push-2005-nowadays.389578/

It is better for the so-called western free press to focus on their problems instead.
Ah, I forget. Any China bashing news will sell their newspaper and get plenty of internet clicks.

Okay, if you are still not convinced about the financial stuff, how about looking at indicators here.
https://defence.pk/threads/china-regains-first-place-in-imf’s-world-economic-growth-report.473463/#post-9124864

If you want to look at pictures, see these threads:-
https://defence.pk/threads/china-ex...idges-infrastructure-news-and-updates.435098/
https://defence.pk/threads/china-hsr-news-and-information-original-translation.363685/


Stop spewing nonsense in this forum. Do it somewhere else.
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Well said mate, non-sense in this forum is unbelievable! What kind of title "China on borrowed money" is that? China is a creditor nation on this planet, even largest of all, so money borrowed from whom? Aliens? Is the OP illiterate?

https://defence.pk/threads/whos-worlds-4th-largest-creditor-nation.455610/

bubble formation
Check "Domestic Credit Provided by Financial Sector", by 2015 as % of GDP, China 194.4%, “bubble”? Japan 376.7%, US 236.5%, Netherlands 219.5%, Hong Kong 212%, then how about these, "explosive bubble"? By the way Lesotho 2.6%, Afghanistan 0.3%, absolutely no “bubble”, what does that say, financial role model for the world?

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/FS.AST.DOMS.GD.ZS?view=map&year_high_desc=true

The adjusted loan-to-deposit ratio
Chinese banks lend some $1.8 trillion to the public.. Adding another lending institutions it is saying that staggering $3 trillion pumped to the economy just last year.
climbed to 80 percent as of June 30, according to S&P Global Ratings

S&P might be your textbook but for us is garbage, remember what they did before 2008? Facts: By 30 Dec 2016, bank deposits balance at ¥150.59 trillion (YOY increase ¥14.88 trillion, yeah that's massive Chinese savings), credits balance at ¥106.6 trillion (YOY increase ¥12.65 trillion, why you lied $3 trillion?), credit-deposit ratio (loan-to-deposit ratio, LTD) at end 2016 was only 70.1%, room to grow, what stress? Chinese savings will continue to rise rapidly, so are bank lendings, ain't that even finance 101? Banks live on LTD and interests spread, tell me a single commercial bank who looks at garbage GDP data when doing a lending?

http://finance.sina.com.cn/roll/2017-01-20/doc-ifxzunxf1558065.shtml

Reserves down from $4trillion to $3 trillion in just two years
Bull crap, who in their sane mind looks at reserve asset as the only type of asset? As if it's holy? Especially for a trade surplus nation (net positive exports)? Why not divest from low yield reserves asset and invest say in high yield outbound direct investment (ODI)? Why no mention of even larger increase in ODI, outbound loans, outbound trade credits? Why no mention of buildup of world's largest sovereign wealth funds (SWF), now even bigger than any GCC state? Why no mention of non-financial reserve like petroleum? Why no mention of huge trimming down of other liabilities? Last but not least, why not mention overall net increase in international position (IIP), of which Mainland alone already surpassed Germany by 2016Q3, second only to Japan?

Therefore central bank of China trying hard to stop devaluation of currency using forex reserves
Another "therefore" bull crap. On one hand accuse China of manipulating currency, and now this, western media suffer dissociative disorder collectively?
 
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