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China, US, the Holy Roman Emperor

Genesis

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Some misconceptions on China is freedom of navigation, espionage, and South China Sea disputes. China has been painted as the evil empire and America and ASEAN is here to save the day. The realities are very different, as they always are, because ground realities doesn't care what American interests are.

China is the world's biggest supporter for freedom of navigation, based on the fact we are the world's biggest trading nation. The American and Philippines claim of China's desire to disrupt freedom of navigation is baseless and ultimately embarrassing, since they are losing, in trade, to a nation that supposedly wants to stop international trade.

In terms of freedom of navigation, it is China that is fearful of this scenario, as we are actively pursuing different routes for our needs. Energy from Russia, economic corridor from Pakistan, and Central Asia projects, as well as projects in Myanmar.

The Americans raise issues on spying, cyber espionage, and the like with China because they have no way of stopping it. On the other hand, American spying with their more advanced and longer range aircraft and submarines as well as ships and other devices are taken as "freedom."

The Chinese military has raised the issue of these kind of spying off the coast of China with America, but it is told that it is a freedom the world enjoys and China can reciprocate in kind at our pleasure.

In military terms, what the Americans are doing, are far more effective, adding to the fact, Cyber Espionage is not the exclusive weapon of China, America still has the advantage. Yet, one is considered a fundamental freedom and the other a threat.

The difference? America has no way of stopping one and China cannot do the other. Guess which one is the threat.

In terms of South China Sea disputes, China isn't willing to go to an international tribunal, as no great power wanted to. This is Charlemagne and the Pope problem. The Pope crowned Charlemagne, as the Holy Roman Emperor, which gives the Pope, at least in appearance, to be of a higher power. Charlemagne also worked within the feudal system of the time, but having the Pope as his "liege" created problems later on and for all Holy Roman Emperors after him.

The same is true for China, we want to work within the international system, but China will not bow to, exactly what the Philippines has called it, bullying. China will comply on international issues, but with our own sovereignty on the line, we will not accept any international body's decision. For Charlemagne it was succession and allegiance, and even ownership of land and more, for us, today it's South China Sea, tomorrow, it could be a Chinese law, a Chinese territory, or even the Chinese leadership, economy and all can come under threat.

China is the second largest economy in the world, the largest trading nation, and more, if China was the type of country being described by the certain members of our distant cousins out west, why would anyone trade with us? Slave labor? We are not that cheap anymore. The AIIB was further proof, when not wearing colored lenses, we actually look quite good to the international community.

All this is not even going into the biggest elephant in the room, China isn't changing the status quo because we are power hungry, China wants to change the Status Quo, because the balance of power has been blown out the water, and in order for China to continue invest and grow with peace of mind, we need more control over our own destiny.


*The US and UK's interference in Hong Kong, the Tibetan Issue freely blown out of proportion, Taiwan issue( How can Taiwan be handed back to China if it isn't China, how can PRC replace Taiwan on UNSC if Taiwan isn't China), our corrupt government officials are not handed back to us, our investments constantly under scrutiny and more.

The "international" forces are already trying to make China into a vassal, this is all without China submitting our fate to them. What I'm suggesting isn't an assumption, it's happening now.
 
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Good premise. I will reply later today when I have break from work.
 
The American and Philippines claim of China's desire to disrupt freedom of navigation is baseless and ultimately embarrassing, since they are losing, in trade, to a nation that supposedly wants to stop international trade..

This is the first I have ever heard of this.

Edit: Oh wait you really mean military freedom of navigation (not trade). Yes, countries don't want to ask for China's permission to cross the South China sea since the 9 dotted line cuts off access.

Screen Shot 2015-04-21 at 2.21.08 PM.png

Tell us how any warships can cross this without asking China's permission???

For instance how can the Japanese navy sail to Singapore?

Stop being naive about everything.
 
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This is the first I have ever heard of this.

Really? China is claiming a area where most of world's trade goes through. What do you think this means? There are also quotes by high ranking officials on the disruption of trade and blockades and such. It's not hard to find.

Edit: Oh wait you really mean military freedom of navigation (not trade). Yes, countries don't want to ask for China's permission to cross the South China sea since the 9 dotted line cuts off access.

View attachment 216748
Tell us how any warships can cross this without asking China's permission???

For instance how can the Japanese navy sail to Singapore?

Stop being naive about everything.

How can Japan cross to Singapore if Philippines and Vietnam gets their way? If what you suggest makes any sense.

China isn't requesting all ships to register, military activities must be limited like spying and such, but China never said ships can't pass through.

China has said that passing through is fine, and there has been no problems with that to date, but flybys with military surveillance plane and ships, intimidation with ships, and things of that nature are banned. We also wouldn't be doing any of that in other people's EEZ.

On the topic of freedoms, US CREATED ADIZ specially to make Chinese military activities difficult. That's a pure military concept with no civilian applications.
 
Gentlemen,

We should differentiate territorial claims from ADIZ and the mechanisms within. Currently, tho China has a 9 dash claim, there still is freedom of navigation (maritime and military). Currently, the possibility of China creating a Southern ADIZ is close to nill.
 
Gentlemen,

We should differentiate territorial claims from ADIZ and the mechanisms within. Currently, tho China has a 9 dash claim, there still is freedom of navigation (maritime and military). Currently, the possibility of China creating a Southern ADIZ is close to nill.
I only mentioned ADIZ since he mentioned countries need to ask permission if we succeeded in our claims, and I pointed out what China actually meant and also if he really wants to get into the whole getting permission thing, he needs to look in the mirror because the ADIZ concept is an American one and it's sole purpose is to disrupt the freedom of navigation even outside of a country's EEZ.

Even more, the EEZ and military navigation, while not as strict as he seems to think, can still be negotiated if it comes to that, but the mechanism of a ADIZ cannot, as it has only one purpose and any compromise makes it a useless box on the map.

So out of the two of us, who's really looking to take away, a nation's "freedoms."
 
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