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China to sentence leading dissident Liu Xiaobo on Christmas Day

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How is this related to poor innocent Liu Xiaobo, who will be dying today for being vocal about CCP and its atrotious policies.

Stick to the topic.

I was just saying we should not blame the caste system alone. Many others factors are also responsible and they need to be recognized.

Anyway, please lets come to the topic.

Yes, I do not support the CPC and its ruling system. I support a strong patriotic nationalist govt in China. I do not like the Communist regime because they do not let the citizens know about the Indian push forward invading policy and war between China and India in 1962.

BTW, I do not know how much guilty was Liu.

:china: :pakistan: :usflag:
 
China is police state.
Any disssent aganist ruling CPC policies mean death.
Whereas in india rabid separatist leaders like Ali shah Gilani gets free cancer tretment and special force protection.
 
He was a sepratist rather more of a rebel or dissident.
His punishment is ver mild as compare to what indians impart to such declared people.
In india any rebel got killed extra judicialy, their families are torn apart and people from same ethnicity are mass murdered.

Kashmiri separatist leader killed

total BS...

Go ask those dozens of Kashmiri separatist Huriyat leaders do come out to protest aganist indian after every friday prayer ,who treat its rebel most sysmpathically india,china or Pakistan who carries the shameful blot of 71 and recent killing of Baloch leader like Mr Bugti in Balochistanprovince??
 
How is this related to poor innocent Liu Xiaobo, who will be dying today for being vocal about CCP and its atrotious policies.
Stick to the topic.
I don't think he'll die, maybe detained in jail for years.
 
Human Rights Watch urged foreign governments to continue to press the Chinese government for Liu Xiaobo’s immediate release.

Where were Human Rights activist at the time when Saddam Hessein was getting hanged on Eid Day? Their hypocrisy needs an applause.
 
I was just saying we should not blame the caste system alone. Many others factors are also responsible and they need to be recognized.

Anyway, please lets come to the topic.

Yes, I do not support the CPC and its ruling system. I support a strong patriotic nationalist govt in China. I do not like the Communist regime because they do not let the citizens know about the Indian push forward invading policy and war between China and India in 1962.
BTW, I do not know how much guilty was Liu.

:china: :pakistan: :usflag:


Strongly agree :china::pakistan::sniper::usflag:
 
China is police state.
Any disssent aganist ruling CPC policies mean death.
Whereas in india rabid separatist leaders like Ali shah Gilani gets free cancer tretment and special force protection.

Yeah right, China is police state, Than India=Torture state ?

Ref: ASA 20/013/2009

P. Chidambaram

Home Minister

Ministry of Home Affairs

Government of India

104 North Block

New Delhi 110 001

India

26 June 2009


Dear Minister

Time to end torture: Open Letter to Indian Authorities

I am writing to express Amnesty International's concern that torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment are still inflicted widely throughout India. Twelve years after signing the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment (the Convention), India has yet to ratify it. Also, despite repeated requests since 1992, India has not extended an invitation to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Amnesty International continues to receive reports of torture and other ill-treatment of individuals in custody from states where stringent security legislation is currently in force (such as Jammu & Kashmir, Chattisgarh and some north-eastern states), but also from several other states.

In last decade, several orders from India's Supreme Court, guidelines enunciated by the National and State Human Rights Commissions and official sanctions have not deterred police personnel and paramilitary forces from inflicting torture on individuals on the basis of their caste, religion, socio-economic status and sexual identity. Reports of torture for the purpose of extortion of money and torture of those belonging to the minorities and marginalised communities including dalits, adivasis and women are commonplace.

India currently has no legislation in force to criminalise torture specifically. Amnesty International understands that, over the last year, draft legislation to prevent torture is under the consideration of the government and parliament. However, the draft legislation in its current form, falls short of international standards and would need to be thoroughly revised to be in line with the Convention against Torture.

For instance, the current draft deploys a limiting definition of torture with an emphasis on the effects of "grievous hurt" and "danger". The draft states: "[W]hoever, being a public servant or being abetted by a public servant, or with the consent or acquiescence of a public servant, intentionally, does any act which causes (i) grievous hurt to any person; or (ii) danger to life or health (whether mental or physical) of any person is said to inflict torture".

This definition deviates from that presented in the Convention, which defines torture, in Article 1(1) as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity." [Italics added.]

The current draft legislation seeks to replace the clear international legal concept of "severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical" with "grievous hurt" which only partly overlaps it and does not, for instance, cover mental pain or suffering.

In addition, the current draft legislation does not establish specific avenues or procedures for victims, relatives or others to complain about torture and other ill treatment; on the other hand, it sets, from the date of occurrence of torture, a six-month deadline for complaints to take effect. The current draft legislation is also silent about the processes of impartial investigation of law enforcement personnel and of their prosecution and has no specific clause to support victims of torture or protect witnesses.

On the occasion of 26 June, the International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, Indian human rights and civil society groups have called on the Government to initiate serious and wide-ranging consultations with them to ensure that it is in conformity with the UN Convention against Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Amnesty International calls on the Government of India to

•take immediate steps to end all torture and other ill-treatment, as outlined by Amnesty International's 12-Point Programme for the Prevention of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment by Agents of the State;


•immediately ratify the UN Convention Against Torture and its Optional Protocol;

•initiate wide-ranging consultations with human rights and civil society organizations in India, as well as with international NGOs and experts, in order to bring the draft legislation into line with the UN Convention Against Torture.;

•extend an invitation to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture without any further delay

We are attaching Amnesty International's 12-point Point Programme for the Prevention of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment by Agents of the State.

Thank you for your consideration for the above recommendations, and we look forward to your response at the earliest. Please contact me should you have any comments or questions.

Sincerely

Sam Zarifi

Program Director

Asia Pacific Program

Cc: Mr. Veerappa Moily

Minister of Law and Justice

Room 403, A Wing

Shastri Bhavan

New Delhi 110 001

India

Fax: 0091 11 23015223, 23384241

Justice Rajendra Babu

Chairperson

National Human Rights Commission Faridkot House Copernicus Marg Delhi 110001 India

Fax: 0091 11 23384863

E-mail: covdnhrc@nic.in

ionhrc@nic.in

India: Open Letter to the Home Minister, Ministry of Home Affairs :smitten::pakistan::china:
 
Yeah right, China is police state, Than India=Torture state ?

Ref: ASA 20/013/2009

P. Chidambaram

Home Minister

Ministry of Home Affairs

Government of India

104 North Block

New Delhi 110 001

India

26 June 2009


Dear Minister

Time to end torture: Open Letter to Indian Authorities

I am writing to express Amnesty International's concern that torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment are still inflicted widely throughout India. Twelve years after signing the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment (the Convention), India has yet to ratify it. Also, despite repeated requests since 1992, India has not extended an invitation to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Amnesty International continues to receive reports of torture and other ill-treatment of individuals in custody from states where stringent security legislation is currently in force (such as Jammu & Kashmir, Chattisgarh and some north-eastern states), but also from several other states.

In last decade, several orders from India's Supreme Court, guidelines enunciated by the National and State Human Rights Commissions and official sanctions have not deterred police personnel and paramilitary forces from inflicting torture on individuals on the basis of their caste, religion, socio-economic status and sexual identity. Reports of torture for the purpose of extortion of money and torture of those belonging to the minorities and marginalised communities including dalits, adivasis and women are commonplace.

India currently has no legislation in force to criminalise torture specifically. Amnesty International understands that, over the last year, draft legislation to prevent torture is under the consideration of the government and parliament. However, the draft legislation in its current form, falls short of international standards and would need to be thoroughly revised to be in line with the Convention against Torture.

For instance, the current draft deploys a limiting definition of torture with an emphasis on the effects of "grievous hurt" and "danger". The draft states: "[W]hoever, being a public servant or being abetted by a public servant, or with the consent or acquiescence of a public servant, intentionally, does any act which causes (i) grievous hurt to any person; or (ii) danger to life or health (whether mental or physical) of any person is said to inflict torture".

This definition deviates from that presented in the Convention, which defines torture, in Article 1(1) as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity." [Italics added.]

The current draft legislation seeks to replace the clear international legal concept of "severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical" with "grievous hurt" which only partly overlaps it and does not, for instance, cover mental pain or suffering.

In addition, the current draft legislation does not establish specific avenues or procedures for victims, relatives or others to complain about torture and other ill treatment; on the other hand, it sets, from the date of occurrence of torture, a six-month deadline for complaints to take effect. The current draft legislation is also silent about the processes of impartial investigation of law enforcement personnel and of their prosecution and has no specific clause to support victims of torture or protect witnesses.

On the occasion of 26 June, the International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, Indian human rights and civil society groups have called on the Government to initiate serious and wide-ranging consultations with them to ensure that it is in conformity with the UN Convention against Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Amnesty International calls on the Government of India to

•take immediate steps to end all torture and other ill-treatment, as outlined by Amnesty International's 12-Point Programme for the Prevention of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment by Agents of the State;


•immediately ratify the UN Convention Against Torture and its Optional Protocol;

•initiate wide-ranging consultations with human rights and civil society organizations in India, as well as with international NGOs and experts, in order to bring the draft legislation into line with the UN Convention Against Torture.;

•extend an invitation to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture without any further delay

We are attaching Amnesty International's 12-point Point Programme for the Prevention of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment by Agents of the State.

Thank you for your consideration for the above recommendations, and we look forward to your response at the earliest. Please contact me should you have any comments or questions.

Sincerely

Sam Zarifi

Program Director

Asia Pacific Program

Cc: Mr. Veerappa Moily

Minister of Law and Justice

Room 403, A Wing

Shastri Bhavan

New Delhi 110 001

India

Fax: 0091 11 23015223, 23384241

Justice Rajendra Babu

Chairperson

National Human Rights Commission Faridkot House Copernicus Marg Delhi 110001 India

Fax: 0091 11 23384863

E-mail: covdnhrc@nic.in

ionhrc@nic.in

India: Open Letter to the Home Minister, Ministry of Home Affairs :smitten::pakistan::china:

We are not discussing about India here. Is it too difficult for you to understand??
 
Do you need to hang him for saying so?? I thank god a thousand million times that I am not born in China.

wow, "a thousand million times", really impressive. But how old are you. i have to believe you started your "thanking" long long before you came to this world. I really understand your hatred against China and Chinese people, take it easy. The only way to surpass China is by your hard working in your own country for another 30years (maybe you will have a chance then, if you guys do what i am telling you now), not by wasting your time in this badwill "thanking stuff".

As for Mr. Liu, i know nothing about him. But as most Chinese people, I trust my government who leads us from a poor country to a true superpower in only 20years (by the way, the real Chinese economic reform began from 1990, not 1979). Remeber, when pointing to people with your finger, the other four fingers of your hand are pointing at yourself. If you don't know what i mean, think about your own problems in your own country.

And I appreciate those suggestions, critisms from people who really care about China, not from people like you who just wish China to disappear from this world.
 
And I appreciate those suggestions, critisms from people who really care about China, not from people like you who just wish China to disappear from this world.

No one here wishes that China should disappear from this world. Infact development, economy and space-tech wise, Indians have high regards for chinese achievements. But the authoritative, Inhuman, Intolerant regime must certainly disappear from this world, much to the benifit of common chinese. For example consider Mr Liu here, he is been sentenced only because he does not agree to believe what the CCP wants him to believe. Its just like medieval times when you used to be hanged by the church if you believed that the earth is not flat.
 
China is police state.
Any disssent aganist ruling CPC policies mean death.
Mr.Liu was sentenced a 11 year's jail (not death or life-time prison) and he still have right to appeal.
The sentence is partly because his launching a charter calling for freedom (there are other 100+ people who signed their names on it still living their lives as usually), partly because US's interference.
Some people believe they should not kowtow to the american and they made the sentence on the Xmas day.
 
Group discussion Topic
the earth is flat:

now the best way to get the right answer to this question years ago would have been to let both the groups of ppl(who say it is flat and those who say it is round) have a open frank discussion..
If the ones suppporting round earth are just killed the earth would remain flat till today..!!

the point is Freedom of expressing one's views is very important and is fundamental to being a human itself....
Opposing it and punishing it with sentences is akin to making a slave out of human mind...
and is also an extreme form of discrimination...!!
 
11 years for speaking his mind!! Pathetic really.

China should brace itself for holier than thou western leaders talking about Freedom and Liberty!

PS - I have a question. Considering that the PRC is not really a communist proletariat dictatorship anymore, would it be correct to call it a capitalist dictatorship? and if it indeed is a capitalist dictatorship, what is the difference between the current PRC leadership and Mao's class enemies?
 
A Chinese Dissident's Conviction: Calibrating Western Response

By Tom Doctoroff
North Asia Area Director of JWT advertising firm


I am a long-term resident of China, working in an industry -- advertising -- in which productivity is inextricably linked to robust self-expression. Like most Western commentators, I am saddened by the conviction of Liu Xiaobo, who has been jailed for up to 11 years. His crime was to help draft a petition known as Charter 08 that demanded the right to free speech, open elections and the rule of law.

Most observers believe Mr. Liu did not advocate the overthrow of the Communist party; his actions, therefore, wee not seditious. Furthermore, the nature of his trial -- suddenly announced, quickly executed and closed to foreign observers -- makes even pretense of due process risible. Critics of the Communist regime are right that Mr. Liu's Draconian punishment is indicative of a fear-based, insecure power structure, awkwardly wielding a Leninist iron fist at home while striving to become a power broker abroad.

I believe the CCP's hyper-sensitivity to even the slightest whiff of dissent undermines its own legitimacy in the eyes of mainland citizens. This post will not defend the decisions of the government. It will, however, attempt to explain them.

Does the Communist Party want to cling to power, irrespective of citizens' will? Yes. But, for the time being, fueled by clear-eyed pragmatism and lack of an alternative governing apparatus, the masses have no choice but to hope the party to succeeds. Amongst mainlanders, The Chinese government does not lack legitimacy. On balance, it has delivered the goods.

No Moral Absolutes. My guess is a large portion of Chinese citizens, even amongst the "new middle class," would likely support the Party's decision to sentence Mr. Liu. (Censorship has prevented his case from being widely reported.) True, many would shake their heads, ruing the distance China still must travel to achieve global standards of civil rights and decency. But many of these same people also believe China is not yet ready for "free expression," even the non-violent, non-subversive sort. Their reservations are not the product of Orwellian brain washing, robotically programmed into the minds of an unquestioning, easily-cowed population. Rather they reflect certain "truths" regarding Chinese culture and the relationship between individual and state, reinforced across millennia.

Chinese have no conception of moral absolutes. The "individual" is not a fundamental building block of society. The clan's interest, defined on both familial and national levels, remains the basis of all acceptable conduct. The Chinese worldview is cyclical, with the forces of yin and yang, light and darkness, positive and negative, rebalancing themselves across time and space. To boot, the structure of the universe -- and society -- is characterized by an intricate inter-connectivity. Without whipping up an algebraic lather, suffice it to say that Chinese philosophy and morality frowns upon rights that exist independent of context. Torture, or even murder, facilitated through a complaint judiciary subordinated to the Party, will be "justified" -- practically all citizens support, by international standards, indiscriminate application of the death penalty -- if it militates against "chaos." Progress is built on a foundation of "stability." Order is a prerequisite to advancement. Universal rights, while appreciated as lovely ideals, are not viewed as "practical" given China's current stage of social and economic development. Human rights questions are resolved based on whether they promote, or degrade, "harmony,"

Harsh treatment of Tibetan or Uigyur rioters, for example, is supported by practically everyone. In China, territorial "unity" is sacrosanct, the ultimate defense against an unfamiliar outside world. Knowledge of Liu Xiaobo's case, on the other hand, would trigger ambivalence. On one hand, Mr. Liu's methods are non-violent. His goals are benign. He is neither agitator nor demagogue. He advocates what he believes to be in the best interest of the China, still more a "civilization state" than a "nation state" governed by laws. On the other, most Chinese fear their society is not mature enough to debate - let alone digest -- Charter 08. Can even good intentions destabilize emotions, people wonder, thereby threatening economic momentum? (A minority of citizens probably suspect Mr. Liu's undeclared end objective is, in fact, to overturn one-party rule. Assuming, and only assuming, this were true, he would be vilified, even by those who have not yet benefitted from economic reform.)

How We Should Respond.

In light of both the government's and citizens' trenchant fear of instability, how should Westerners respond to a conviction that violates our sense of decency? Above all, we should not wag fingers, or patronize. We must acknowledge that China's stage of development and gigantic population that still consists of 700 million peasants do, indeed, pose challenges America and Europe do not fully comprehend. Chinese are, if nothing else, supreme pragmatists. We should adopt measured tones and empirically-based polemics. We should focus energies on persuading Communist rules that gradual political reform -- implementing judicial independence; clarifying of anti-sedition laws; expanding elections of local and provincial leadership posts; instituting intra-party checks and balances -- would make China more, not less, stable. We should stand with China's mandarins as partners in progress, helping them realize the country's middle class will demand a level of democractic responsiveness the Party is currently ill-equipped to deliver.

Barack Obama's non-hectoring approach, almost quantitatively analytic, is perfect pitch. The State Department's statement called on China to release Mr. Liu, saying that the "persecution of individuals for the peaceful expression of political views is inconsistent with internationally recognized norms of human rights." A clear-eyed, non-fiery response is just what the doctor ordered.

The Administration forfeits brownie points across the political spectrum for not stridently espousing moral absolutes -- unlike, say, Angela Merkel's "dismay" at the sentence or the United Nations' rumbling that Mr. Liu's conviction had thrown "an ominous shadow" over China's commitment to human rights. But, over here, Obama's calm, methodical approach to conflict resolution generates respect. (Leaders have already signaled that the RMB will, sooner or later, appreciate. They gave ground during Copenhagen on carbon emission monitoring. And their approach towards mercurial North Korea and belligerent Iran is slowly aligning with American interests.) If Chinese leaders do not feel threatened -- or misunderstood -- by outside forces, they will, over time, bend to global and domestic reality. Our goal should be to apply just enough (fact-based) pressure for rulers to conduct objective cost/benefit analyses regarding their own short- and long-term interests. Only then will we be able to bridge a cultural chasm, one that will never disappear.
 
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