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China, Russia And Pakistan: The World’s New Superpower Axis

Ask the 146 Million Russians.....what a consumer market of 200 Million can do for them. Pakistan can replace majority of EU countries for Russia due to its high growth market. Then, also ask what a $ 4 - 6 billion in weapons contracts can do to the Russian military complex and you'd be surprised.

There is a reason why the Russians offered SU-35 to the Pakistanis. If you can't learn from what's painted on the wall, then good luck to you. Nothing can fix this disorder :tup:

The article is a very balanced article. The US president from 2016 (hopefully, Big D) or whoever else, needs to realize that the US can't lose Pakistan. Pakistan has been the real staunch ally (irrespective of the rocky relations), throughout the cold war and after the cold war. Plus, having good relations (military to military on top), would ALWAYS help the US be involved in that area. We can't leave that area empty.

Pakistan provides access to deeper territories that are otherwise TOO FAR from the ocean, and eyes on Iran, RIGHT next door. That's super strategic. This is why the US government has de-hyphenated the India - Pakistan relationship already. Because it needs an independent Pakistan focused policy whether India likes things or not.

The next 5 years will be interesting, if I was to bet, to gain strategic advantage, the American businesses like GE, Boeing, Lockheed, CNN and the likes, will be investing a TON of money inside Pakistan, to keep the American foothold stronger. That's the way to go!!



Is it really weak? May want to ask your Army Chief (and previous Chiefs) and then post their comments on here. If you can't get to them, here is a comment made by the son of a previous IA chief (who is a very good friend): " everyone inside the Indian governments at all times would love to attack Pakistan and settle the score once and for all. But the problem is, they are not exactly Sri-Lanka, and we can't be trying to look like a super power and lose over 100 top line fighters in two weeks. There is no winning there so it'll just be a constant Punjabi style verbal arm-wrestling every now and then, without a result". Let's see if you can identify which IAF chief was this. If I hadn't known these guys, I'd have guessed it still, just the way the verbiage was said......

Man this guy is entertaining....
 
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What does Pakistan BRING to the table ?

Being an International Relations student, I can tell you one thing sir, since 1947, Pakistan’s establishment (civilian + military) has been smart enough to use their geopolitics to their advantage. Geopolitics: the impact a geographical location of a country has on its foreign policy. Starting from 1950’s it offered US to be the sole bulwark against Soviet communism, bcuz of its proximity to Central Asia (then Soviet Union) and Middle East (where US feared communism would spread), thus Pak became vital in containment strategy of President Truman i.e Truman Doctrine.

In today’s context, Russia is coming close to Pak bcuz of various reasons.

1) The security situation in Central Asia, Chechnya, Dagistan is directly linked with that of Afghanistan (where Pakistan has an undeniable clout), that is the reason Pak’s entry in to SCO was secured, SCO in 2014 also signed an agreement with Russian led central asian military alliance CSTO, and thereby you see Pak-Russia have started developing defence collaboration.

2) Access to warm waters: Xinjiang province (where CPEC will meet China’s new silk route) also borders Russia, and it has shown interest in joining the CPEC project, which will give it strategic reach into West Asia, through Gwadar. CPEC is part of China's one belt one road initiative, it will regionally connect Euroasian landmass.

3) Energy: Russia is already investing in energy sector, through a $2.5 bill Lahore Karachi LNG gas pipeline, has shown interest in IP pipeline and numerous other projects.


In today’s environment, geopolitics plays an important role, Pak has played it quite well, being at the cross roads of different regions. Pakistan is in the middle of energy rich countries (Central Asia/Russia) on one side and energy hungry countries on the other (India), which will add to Pakistan's geopolitical advantage, as is evident in TAPI and CASA porjects, both which will pass through Pakistan.
 
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You are thinking of 20th centuary concepts in 21st centuary.

There is no Iron curtain now. China ,Japan and USA are interdependent on each other.
 
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If India doesn't join the US block then Pakistan will be really insignificant in this axis . Now more important ques is Will India join US? maybe not but we will join them for the Japanese that you can count on.
 
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Explain me how is it irrelevant? Recently India has pissed off Russia by going for the Rafale deal and Obama visit to India and Pakistan just purchased 4 MI 35 Helis from Russia and this Gas Pipeline plan now.Actually Pakistan is the MOST important in this Axis due to CPEC.China and Russia can both increase their grasp further into Arabian Sea which of course the America doesn't want.Such childish comment was expected from an Indian troll.

How much did your 4 helos & gaspipeline cost ?

If India doesn't join the US block then Pakistan will be really insignificant in this axis . Now more important ques is Will India join US? maybe not but we will join them for the Japanese that you can count on.

We will most likely remain nonaligned
 
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Pakistan’s establishment (civilian + military) has been smart enough to use their geopolitics to their advantage.
If you indeed are a student of international relations, the first thing would be what a disastrous use Pakistan has made of its geo-whatever location. The best case of a country with potential, failing to do so due to policy disasters, is Pakistan.
 
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well he is an all round expert in all fields :rofl::rofl:
I think I know who you are talking about. Its pretty obvious from your one liners and his detailed analysis that you guys can't counter with facts :cheesy: :cheers: :enjoy:
 
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If you indeed are a student of international relations, the first thing would be what a disastrous use Pakistan has made of its geo-whatever location. The best case of a country with potential, failing to do so due to policy disasters, is Pakistan.

Soon after independence, Pakistan faced a security predicament, (water issue and 1948 Kashmir war) along with Afghan Irredentism (as it refused to accept Pak sovereignty over NWFP and Balochistan). Pakistan had the option of either joining Capitalist bloc, Communist Bloc or remain Non aligned. Given its security needs and financial position for a newly created country, it opted for capitalist bloc, offered it geostrategic location to be used as a bulwark against communism, joined CENTO (1954), SEATO (1955), which resulted in bolstering of its military, got equipment like F104’s, B-57’s, Patton tanks, ammunition, etc, it strengthened Pakistan militarily. Geopolitics was used as a tool of foreign policy, it was an excellent decision, otherwise Pak would have been literally defenceless in 1965 war.

In 1980’s against, when soviets were knocking on our door, with a hostile communist regime in power in Kabul allied with our Indian neighbours, Pakistan and US , were again tied in a marriage of convenience, pushed back the soviets, removed a significant security/existential threat. Again an excellent Foreign policy decision using geopolitics.

The problem came when west abandoned this region after creating a Jihadi machine, Pakistan resorting to realpolitik had no option other than to stabilize Afghanistan whether by hook or crook as a bloody civil war was being waged there. 9/11 happened, and this region again became the focus of attention, again keeping supreme national interests in mind, Pak joined global coalition, which resulted in a backlash from jihadis, however now after a long fight Pakistan has overcome that wave of terrorism.

CPEC, CASA, TAPI (about to start construction in DEC 2015) are all regional energy projects, with Pakistan as a energy and trade transit.
 
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@MadDog

Let us for a while assume, that, Pakistani foreign policy during the Cold War was right. It was strategic. It needed to ensure, that, Soviets were kept away. With this in mind, Pakistan acted as a front-line state during the Cold War. For this, Pakistan received tanks, ammunition and the rest. Now, here is a question. What did you gain beside a military? Did you gain anything like NATO which also was composed of front-line states? Which also provided support and land bases to the US? Now, let me assume that NATO is different and it cannot be compared to Pakistan. Still, what was the benefit Pakistan received, which ensured that in the long run you succeeded?

The problem lies, in the way you deal with policy. Everything revolves round defence against an adversary. Even in all your arguments, not once, have you said development or economics. We (I will put, India too in this) are developing countries. While defense is a critical part of policy it is not the guiding policy. Defense is an instrument of policy. It cannot define policy.

Having said the above, I would say you made the mistake in the way your Afghan policy and implementation was concerned. In a professional force, you need to forward your country's interests. This is paramount. For this you can use external forces and use any means necessary. But, you do not sympathise with your instruments of force (the Taliban/Mujahideen/or any other). And you never let your civil society get encouraged to be part of that force.

Why is this so? Because, once your need for the 'force' is over, you should be able to pull out of it or worst case, destroy it. This is possible only through ensuring insulation of the uniformed and civil forces from the external force you use. This is where I say, Pakistan has not learnt yet. It continues to use its citizens an instrument to forward policies in other countries.

Second, there was the end of the Cold War. Here too there was an opportunity to re-align or better still multi-align. Let's see what happened between the end of the Cold War and 2011. The focus on the Pakistani western front reduced and support for Kashmir 'solution' started in full force. This could have been a diversion of the pro-Pakistan elements to create trouble in the Indian state. Was this a good policy? Maybe, you think so. But here too, you mixed up your civil population into becoming a part of the solution. You have what you call "non state actors" becoming a serious problem. This happens due to radicalisation. Pakistan is a unique case, because, here it used its own citizens as instruments of foreign policy in a armed environment.

Third 9/11 happened. This was a prime opportunity for Pakistan to rid itself of all the disruptive elements. But again, it simply resulted in top level Taliban operatives moving to Pakistan. I think, this was the biggest missed opportunity. You now had a chance, to eliminate all the monsters created. But, the thought of bad and good Taliban still existed. Again, not a great long term policy.

Between all this, was the nuclear bomb explosion. Now, think if you had not exploded the bomb. Do you really believe that had you not exploded it, you could not have conveyed to the GoI that you had a bomb? Had you not exploded it, you would have been hailed as a model state, sanctions would not have been imposed. The reason for it was purely populist. The smart decision would have been to convey to the GoI, "well done, but lest you forget, we have the bomb too and keep that in mind".

Now let's come to the current scenario. You have aligned with China. Why? They should be agreeing to your terms. Not the other way round. They have trouble on the eastern and southern front. Then they have Indian in the IOR. You are a friendly country to them. Why would you not negotiate a better deal? Why would you not tell them, your companies are allowed in, but, they need to use Pakistani engineers and workmen. Why not tell the GCC, we need power and we will let you invest in our country via power projects. Why is it that you could not tell the US, look you need us to exit out of Afghanistan, we need that pipeline from Iran. So let's agree to that. Why not?

Now, do you understand why I say, there has been one after another policy disaster.

Having said all of the above, let me also tell you about Indian policy. Because, I know, there are major linkages to how policy gets defined in Pakistan. We are not a threat to your territorial integrity. We do not want to deal with the nut jobs who get funded by the ME. Our differences are on Kashmir and related issues. But, this will not result in a war from an Indian push. It never has and never will. We have one of the largest poor population. This is our priority. We need power. This is our priority. We have a lot to lose if we go to war with Pakistan.
 
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@ Pakistanis - if you believe in this crap- go ahead and get caught in the power struggle between the world powers......no matter how you glorify your role - you will be used as a Pawn. You were used before against SOVIETs and you are putting yourselves up for sale like before. Go ahead get your people killed because Americans and Russians don't like each other. The only way that every country(major powers) looks at your country- source of emotional people who can be put to use instead of their own people. Good luck being a pawn


As for India- we will stay the same as usual- stay clear of all the shit. Let the big boys take each other out. We watch from the sidelines and continue on our search for development and keep our people safe.
 
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@MadDog

Let us for a while assume, that, Pakistani foreign policy during the Cold War was right. It was strategic. It needed to ensure, that, Soviets were kept away. With this in mind, Pakistan acted as a front-line state during the Cold War. For this, Pakistan received tanks, ammunition and the rest. Now, here is a question. What did you gain beside a military? Did you gain anything like NATO which also was composed of front-line states? Which also provided support and land bases to the US? Now, let me assume that NATO is different and it cannot be compared to Pakistan. Still, what was the benefit Pakistan received, which ensured that in the long run you succeeded?

The problem lies, in the way you deal with policy. Everything revolves round defence against an adversary. Even in all your arguments, not once, have you said development or economics. We (I will put, India too in this) are developing countries. While defense is a critical part of policy it is not the guiding policy. Defense is an instrument of policy. It cannot define policy.

Having said the above, I would say you made the mistake in the way your Afghan policy and implementation was concerned. In a professional force, you need to forward your country's interests. This is paramount. For this you can use external forces and use any means necessary. But, you do not sympathise with your instruments of force (the Taliban/Mujahideen/or any other). And you never let your civil society get encouraged to be part of that force.

Why is this so? Because, once your need for the 'force' is over, you should be able to pull out of it or worst case, destroy it. This is possible only through ensuring insulation of the uniformed and civil forces from the external force you use. This is where I say, Pakistan has not learnt yet. It continues to use its citizens an instrument to forward policies in other countries.

Second, there was the end of the Cold War. Here too there was an opportunity to re-align or better still multi-align. Let's see what happened between the end of the Cold War and 2011. The focus on the Pakistani western front reduced and support for Kashmir 'solution' started in full force. This could have been a diversion of the pro-Pakistan elements to create trouble in the Indian state. Was this a good policy? Maybe, you think so. But here too, you mixed up your civil population into becoming a part of the solution. You have what you call "non state actors" becoming a serious problem. This happens due to radicalisation. Pakistan is a unique case, because, here it used its own citizens as instruments of foreign policy in a armed environment.

Third 9/11 happened. This was a prime opportunity for Pakistan to rid itself of all the disruptive elements. But again, it simply resulted in top level Taliban operatives moving to Pakistan. I think, this was the biggest missed opportunity. You now had a chance, to eliminate all the monsters created. But, the thought of bad and good Taliban still existed. Again, not a great long term policy.

Between all this, was the nuclear bomb explosion. Now, think if you had not exploded the bomb. Do you really believe that had you not exploded it, you could not have conveyed to the GoI that you had a bomb? Had you not exploded it, you would have been hailed as a model state, sanctions would not have been imposed. The reason for it was purely populist. The smart decision would have been to convey to the GoI, "well done, but lest you forget, we have the bomb too and keep that in mind".

Now let's come to the current scenario. You have aligned with China. Why? They should be agreeing to your terms. Not the other way round. They have trouble on the eastern and southern front. Then they have Indian in the IOR. You are a friendly country to them. Why would you not negotiate a better deal? Why would you not tell them, your companies are allowed in, but, they need to use Pakistani engineers and workmen. Why not tell the GCC, we need power and we will let you invest in our country via power projects. Why is it that you could not tell the US, look you need us to exit out of Afghanistan, we need that pipeline from Iran. So let's agree to that. Why not?

Now, do you understand why I say, there has been one after another policy disaster.

Having said all of the above, let me also tell you about Indian policy. Because, I know, there are major linkages to how policy gets defined in Pakistan. We are not a threat to your territorial integrity. We do not want to deal with the nut jobs who get funded by the ME. Our differences are on Kashmir and related issues. But, this will not result in a war from an Indian push. It never has and never will. We have one of the largest poor population. This is our priority. We need power. This is our priority. We have a lot to lose if we go to war with Pakistan.

Buddy I will try to answer your queries under headings, so that I am able to convey my understandings properly.

Security predicament:

You pointed out why I didn’t mention economy during the cold war, and only talked about military. Pakistan was confronted by paramount security challenges, India to the east, Afghan irredentism to the west, Soviet Bull right overhead to the north. In this situation Security, Existence and Survival was paramount, what did Pakistan achieve: It survived through this ordeal, didn’t become another page of history, the way Soviets were power drunk, they had the power to run over Pakistan. It deterred that from happening.

Economically we performed quite well in 1950’s and 1960’s (under President Ayub) , South Korean economists used to follow the development plans implemented in Pakistan, infact with a GDP growth rate of 7-8%, it was declared as an economic role model for developing countries in the non socialist world. You can google more, if you want I can suggest some links.

Afghan Policy :

While I support the fight against and ultimate retreat of Soviets. In the aftermath, Pakistan should have involved all the ethnic groups and should have encouraged an Afghan led dialogue to end the civilwar rather than supporting the Pushtun groups, which ultimately led to the creation of Taliban, again the west had promised to do rebuilding there, it didn’t, were were left with 30 – 40,000 trained jihadis armed to teeth, Pakistan created Taliban in an effort to stabilize the civil war situation, the civil war ended, Afghanistan emerged under a single govt, but it was their obscurantist and retrogressive policies of Taliban which were contentious.

Nuclear Issue:

India did “Smiling Bhuddha” tests in 1974, Pakistan developed and tested nuclear weapon through a cold test in 1984. Pakistan maintained “Policy of ambiguity” wrt to its nuclear weapons, leading many in the Indian establishment to believe that Pakistan is bluffing. In 1998 when India conducted the tests, statements from Indian govt officials demeaning Pakistan since they were the nuclear power of the region. This mindset is reminiscent of British viceroys, its known as Neo-Curzonianism, according to which Indian political + military elite feel South Asia & Indian Ocean is their area of influence and their backyard. Here is an example of statement issued by LK Advani in the immediate aftermath of Indian nuclear tests.

Islamabad should realise the change in the geo-strategic situation in the region and the world. It must roll back its anti-India policy especially with regard to Kashmir. Any other course will be futile and costly for Pakistan." Sabina Inderjit, "Advani Tells Pakistan to Roll Back Its Anti-India Policy," Times of India, May 19, 1998

If Nawaz wouldn’t have conducted the tests, Mounting Public pressure would have ousted him from power, people play a significant role in South Asian political culture. Resorting to Neo-Realist/Realist/Realpolitik principle of “Balance of Power” for maintenance of peace in the region , Pakistan was forced to conduct nuclear tests, otherwise we could have done it openly in 1984 (when we did cold tests). But It was due to Indian Obduracy, Pakistan was forced to become a declared Nuclear Power.

CPEC

Again you are viewing it from a norrow prism, CPEC (Gwadar – Xingjiang) is connected with New Silk Route initiative (which connects Xingjiang with Central Asia and Europe). Russia has shown interest in joining the CPEC project (since it borders Xingjiang too) and Iran has shown interest too, giving it land access to China via Pakistan. Pakistan will act as an energy and trade corridor in this regional EuroAsian land connectivity.

Iran agrees to consider being part of CPEC - The Express Tribune

Instead of opposing India should join it, it passes through Lahore close to Indian border, this will give India access to Central Asia, Russia and Iran. India along with Pakistan has joined SCO, all the SCO members would be part of this “One Belt One Road” initiative. Its about regional integration for the EuroAsian continent, please avoid seeing it with a narrow prism.
 
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christian russia and communist china, biggest enemies of sunnis, friends and allies of sunni pakistan ???

articles propaganda level is poor.
brother the relation between turk and pakistan goes back to when turkey was part of the ottoman empire and pakistan was part of the british empire and was indian territory. we share also same faith but this cant be possible at other relationships, the diversity with relations if for survival and dominance and this century its survival for the fittest. you can see what happened with Libya, Palestine, Iraq and Syria and people have been fooled by calling it an arab spring? This sort of also happened in turkey at bin gazi? but your government over came that conspiracy.
 
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